I thought the tactic was a joke (yes @theotherjohn it would effectively be League then) and Ventner should be ashamed. Eddie Jones was not impressed either
“If that’s rugby then I’m going to retire, because that’s not rugby,” Jones said in his post-match press conference. “Once you lose the ruck, you don’t have a game anymore.
“There was no rugby, so I’m not going to answer any questions about rugby.
“Quote me on that, I don’t think it’s smart rugby.”
Anything that pisses of that whiney toad Jones is good for me!!
Isn't that broadly speaking rugby league?
No it's not, it's closer to SH Super rugby.
thought the tactic was a joke (yes @theotherjohn it would effectively be League
It wouldnt be league as league has an offside line at the tackle
and Ventner should be ashamed.
Who?
Didn't england bore the pants off everyone not so long ago by rejecting proper rugby in favour of the kicking game?
TBH. If you are going to have defenders standing anywhere on the pitch then you might as well allow the attackers to do the same and take out the rule about passing backwards. Then you have American Football.
Let's face it.. This was a one off attempt by the Italians to not get stuffed 60-0 & to head off the suggestions that relegation should be allowed. To that extent it worked very well & they were helped by a rubbish first half performance from England. However, as I said earlier, if this tactic gets widely used it will end up getting banned. It is effectively 'gaming' the offside Law.
t wouldnt be league as league has an offside line at the tackle
Yes, but to a degree so did what we saw today, in that it's only after the tackle where offside becomes 'irrelevant' - the Italians could only move past the 'offside' line when the faux-ruck slowed the ball down - if they'd been ahead of the ball while it was being run at them it would be a massacre, so in essence they have to respect an offside line of sorts.
If the tackle, layback, pick up and go again was instant then they can't run past the ball and disrupt passing.
Interesting that people more knowledgable than us (I'm on catchup BTW) are of the opinion that anyone would have scratched heads a bit on being faced by it for the first time - it's not (in their opinion) England's failing, just that England happened to be the ones who were first up when the plan was hatched.
I don't see it changing the game as it isn't a particularly good tactic. A decent team that played what they saw and understood the rules would run riot. It was England being muppets that was the problem.
England v Scotland looks like a proper big game now.
just that England happened to be the ones who were first up when the plan was hatched.
Wrong. See image above.
Only just got around to watching the game (silly me, was out riding a mountain bike!) - that (like any really) tactic works if you play it occasionally, not every single breakdown - then obviously the opposition can work you out.
Surprised it took England so long really. I remember a youth match I refereed, where I called 'no ruck' and a team scored from that breakdown, one of the lads came over - 'He was offside' nope, not when there's no ruck...It's not like it's a new rule! Fascinating game anyway. Really enjoyed the second half.
Indeed, it's the element of surprise that made it effective. If that happened regularly teams would very quickly come up with a suitable tactic to address it. Once they have I suspect they would cut to pieces any team doing it consistently rather than as an occasional surprise.
EDIT Cross posting there, great minds...
However, as I said earlier, if this tactic gets widely used it will end up getting banned
It is already widely used by many teams worldwide who don't seem to have a problem recognising the differences between rucks and mauls and tackles.
You can't classify a tackled player lying on the ground with four of his team-mates crouching over him and no opposion nearby as a ruck. Even if EJ wants it to be.
But then whinging about that deflects from the fact the England were truly terrible today, doesn't it?
Alternatively, all the controversy overshadows the fact that England have now won, what is it? 17 in a row?
I know there's anyone but England sentiment from certain quarters, but be honest. Wales would have fixed it just like that, would they? They couldn't even work out how to deal with a kick for goal at 3 behind and half an hour to play! Scotland? France?
As I said, people far cleverer than you and I about rugby 'hadn't seen it before' and were scratching heads for a time about dealing with it.
Idle Ventner is their defensive coach, fine player ex Bokker and London Irish/Quinns (?)
If it wasn't that novel & the solution is so blindingly obvious, then why did the Italians try it? C'mon guys I know you are anti-England but at least talk a modicum of sense.
I know there's anyone but England sentiment from certain quarters, but be honest. [b]Wales would have fixed it just like that[/b], would they? They couldn't even work out how to deal with a kick for goal at 3 behind and half an hour to play! Scotland? France?
I guess we'll never know that one, But what we do know is that the ref is the ref and not a coach, so if england want to get up to speed on the rules... 😀
A similar tactic, occasionally used, is to stand off at mauls, crating a truck and trailer offside.
Works for a bit, as an element of surprise, but once rumbled, it's rumbled.
As mentioned on the last page, England were suckered in to it and didn't react.
Oh, hold on. They did react. Their 7, the ruck specialist position, asked the referee what a ruck was. 🙂
Wales would have fixed it just like that, would they? They couldn't even work out how to deal with a kick for goal at 3 behind and half an hour to play!
C'mon guys I know you are anti-England but at least talk a modicum of sense.
You appear to be mostly arguing with yourself!!
Massive fault with England players not being able to solve the problem on the field.
A massive part of the issue with England ( maybe Northern Hemisphere teams?) is decision making and just being structure d to the n' th degree and unable to look at what is going on and adapt. As above easy to deal with really.
Well done Italy and EJ would not be complaining if his team was using it.
I'm finding most of the back biting pretty funny!
It happened, it was legal and fair play to Italy for trying something. Connor O Shea's interview is pretty spot on.
England are top of the table, still won with a bonus point and are unbeaten so far in this tournament.
Idlejon may say that england were shit today, but they are still playing better rugby than wales (in 4th place are, and I don't remotely fancy their chances against the Irish or the French.
they are still playing better rugby than wales
Yeah but Wales are shit...look at the coaches..Cotter, Jones, Schimdt......and Rob ****ing Howley
Idlejon may say that england were shit today, but they are still playing better rugby than wales (in 4th place are, and I don't remotely fancy their chances against the Irish or the French.
I'd take less pleasure laughing at england if they were gracious winners, but they're not.
😀 He's a welsh legend! I don't know what the problem is!
I'd take less pleasure laughing at england if they were gracious winners, but they're not.
It's a good job nobody gives a shit what you think then isn't it?
To be completely honest I think Italian players were offside some of the time - obviously must bow to the knowledge of an International ref ( slightly under the influence of an international coach, he may or may not have been!) but I don't think they can just come past the tackle area until the ball is away from the tackle - some of the time it seemed like they just stood in front of the 9 before the ball had been played - i reckon that's what confused England.
[i](d)
Players on their feet must not charge or obstruct an opponent who is not near the ball[/i]
I mean, what was this 1metre Poit was heard referring to? I'd be interested if someone can show me that in the laws.
I may be wrong, but thats how i wouldve reffed it, and any fool kno, the ref is never wrong. Not until some whinger from the sideline wanders over at the end of the match and tells them they are anyway.
EJ was the stroppy one.
The rest of them just seemed grateful to escape without making themselves look more stupid.
Was a fantastic game to watch, and overall the 6N this year has been great
This was also within the rules.
Brilliant tactics or making a mockery of the game for short term gain?
I'm all for a bit of innovation, but if everyone employed this tactic all the time it would basically look like Aussie rules.
It's a good job nobody gives a shit what you think then isn't it?
😆
He's a welsh legend! I don't know what the problem is!
Laugh it up buddy. See how you feel when he's coaching all those English,Scottish and Irish players how to attack with the Lions...at least he cant harm any welsh players then!!!
Laugh it up buddy. See how you feel when he's coaching all those English,Scottish and Irish players how to attack with the Lions...at least he cant harm any welsh players then!!!
Quality post. Bravo!
@dannyh that cricket example was just what I was thinking
Was a fantastic game to watch,
Hum ??? Paresse's catch was fabulous, Farrell's comedy kicking and the joke tries where less so. I thought it was highly forgettable.
There is no offside line at a tackle. Therfore they can go behind the tackled player. John Hardie uses this a fair amount and other Scots do as well. I am confident Scotland would have sussed it out quickly. the way to counter it is to pick and drive from the SH position.
It shows the inflexibility of thinking from the England side and also the ref was spot on to say he is a ref not a coach - he cannot tell them how to counter it. Nor can they pull folk into the tackle to make it a ruck - that would be tackling a player without the ball. the 1 m zone is the are you cannot encroach into without making it a ruck
I am confident Scotland would have sussed it out quickly
There was never a shred of doubt about that TJ.
Jamba - Glasgow and Scotland use this tactic. Thats why they would have sussed it. John Hardie uses it a fair amount and I have seen Barclay and Dunbar do it as well. Its in the Glasgow / Scotland book of tricks so its not new to the scots.
TJ can't say I have personally ever seen Scotland use it. I will take your word for it.
Well that was pretty awful.
England were poor, really poor. Hughes was a liability; for all of the good stuff that he does for Wasps, he's not an international eight.
Lawes and Launchburry were good though and Itoje looked better at six this week.
Farrell was really bad this week. What a way to mark your 50th cap. Ford did sweet FA really. May was a disaster.
Scotland's visit looks like a foregone conclusion really now as does the visit to Ireland. We won't and don't deserve to win it.
Not apples to apples, but in terms of tactics it's a bit like not committing at a lineout while the attacking team form a maul and get pinged for obstruction. That is even more common yet some teams still seem totally confused by the idea.
The frustration and confusion factor was what worked best today and with hindsight, any team will know now to play the same way as a team not committing men to the breakdown- take it up the middle, as they eventually figured out. I don't think it requires any rule changes or has changed the face of rugby as we know it as the pundits seemed to suggest! Any 7 or 9 should especially know how to make the most of the offside line (or non-line). You see it all the time but the manner and consistency the Italian's did it caused utter confusion! It is worrying when your captain still doesn't know what has happened in the post match interview.
Here's the Chiefs someone mentioned but if anything the Italians probably did it better: http://www.the42.ie/analysis-chiefs-super-rugby-tactics-2013507-Mar2015/
So, we beat Italy with a BP and are s@@t?? Surely we did sort it out, hence we ended up picking and driving through the middle to circumvent it. Also we changed our kickoff returns to avoid the ruck area.
Our issues were more created by missing touch twice, failing to score a couple of clear opportunities, and switching off for the Ita Penalty on half time gifting them 7 points.
We weren't great, but we got a BP, which was all that counted. Plenty of englands last 17 games haven't been world beating, but in each one we ended up with a W. how many times in the last 5 years would Scotland have traded a gutsy upbeat loss for a scrappy win against the tier 1 nations?
Was a fantastic game to watch,
I agree.
Italy have never beaten England and all the matches between them have either been England running up a big score or everybody wondering why England failed to run up a big score.
This was different. It was interesting, amusing and enjoyable to watch. So well done to Italy.
I bet Cotter has noted how easily England were confused by what is a well known tactic ad is looking thru the lawbook and his book of tricks right now to find some ways to confuse England.
I bet you Scotland come up with some tricks.
Was on hospital visiting dutiy today so missed 1H. Frankly staggered that it took Eng so long to counter the Italian tactic but happy with result and BP
All credit to Italy's coaching team for trying the tactic. Agree that it should only be a relative one hit wonder as people will know what to do now - not hard. Does support my view from a few pages back that players are relying too much on rote plays and not their brains.
FWIW, I am enjoying this 6N. It's close. Scotland are back and have won 2 matches that they should have lost rather than the other way round. Its still open and places for Lions remain hotly contested with some dark horses emerging.
Bravo
Plus its always great when England underperform - the reactions from other supporters are top drawer!!!
@dantsw13 The problem with that result for England is I think, looking into my crystal ball, not putting a stack of points on Italy may end up costing them the championship. Much as it pains me to say it I think England will beat Scotland and Ireland beat Wales. So it will come down to who wins Eng v Ire, and depending on bonus points maybe points difference.
