I bet you Scotland come up with some tricks.
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I certainly still expect England to win over Scotland. Clearly the best side in the 6N even if rather stuttering this year
CFH - how funny would that be if we got the crowd to do it as well?
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[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39096603 ]I'd pay a lot of money Mr Jones.[/url]
Don't like it up 'em. 😆
Owen Farrell was truly pish today.
I firmly believe he's completely overrated. If he's England's best FH why isn't he playing at 10?
The best 12? He's too slow. He's not a great defender. He's no threat carrying the ball. He does throw a good pass but he's in there for his kicking and when his kicking goes off there isn't too much left in the locker to back it up. As we saw today.
Its what I have said about Farrell for a long time - too slow between the ears. He is a decent club 10. YOu have to look not just at what he doies which he does well but what he doesn't do. He doesn't make space or play heads up rugby
It was great watching Farrell with his head down playing no part in the Care try. Truly crap 😯
He isn't a great international 10 but as we seem to say every season... who in the NH is? Broken Johnny is as close as it gets but has one crucial problem. Farrell is however solid in defence and (normally) kicks points like a machine which is crucial at this level. His scoreboard pressure is what normally gets England over the line and without him/ his points England don't look half as comfortable.
Blimey the anti England circle jerk is in rampant mode tonight. Yes England were awful first half......yes it's hilarious that Haskell was repeatedly asking the ref the rules (and was still none the wiser!)
But, England got the bonus point win, I seem to remember Wales not getting one. Yes Farrell was pish today, but he's been one of the world's form players of late and is a shoe in for a Lions spot, one game doesn't take that away!
Hard to watch at times today, but I'm glad that Italy gave us a decent game-I've been firmly in favour of getting rid of them for Georgia over the past couple of years, hopefully this can kick-start O'Shea's reign and see them become much more competitive on a regular basis.
The problem is England are capable of so much more. You can't judge them by the standards of the other NH sides 😉 🙂
confused by what is a [b]well known[/b] tactic
So how many have seen this in a game before
TJ yes
Me No
...
Farrell wasn't up to his usual standard today to be fair. Ford was shit too. O'Teo was OK and Daly was good. Jonnie May? We need Watson fit again, so he can get back to Glaws.
So how many have seen this in a game before
Me - yes. Including in play about twenty years ago!
So how many have seen this in a game before
Same law as allowing the tackler to do what they want after releasing the player and getting to their feet (since they'll be up before a ruck is formed 99% of the time), no?
Problem today was the confusion factor in the way Italy did it.
Itoje, at the scene of a ruck recently....
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Never on his feet...
Jamba - my missus who is a cricket fan not a rugby fan but watches the pro 12 and Scotland with me recognised it straight away and also recognised that Scotland and Glasgow do it. ( I was at work - she watched the game on her own). Aus did it against Ireland. Pocock does it a fair amount. Barclay does it, Hardie does it. Dunbar does it
Maybe if you watched a bit more rugby outside of the aP / England you would see a bit more variation.
DanW - true. Sexton is decent, Russell goes from sublime to ridiculous in every match, Farrell is limited as is Biggar, Ford has his weaknesses as well. I'd rank them Sexton / Biggar ( for his kick chase) Russell, ford / Farrell. Mind you anyone outside of Scotland know Weir - the scots backup? Barely competent club player
I think Russell could mature into a great FH but also he may always remain flawed like Townsend did. Russell is NOT ready for the lions tho and is not the right sort of player anyway. Remember how young and inexperienced he is.
CPN, I think you should be looking a lot closer to home for problems at the breakdown!! 😉
Well seeing as there weren't any rucks today he did well to levitate as he did
Maybe if you watched a bit more rugby outside of the aP / England you would see a bit more variation.
I don't recall seeing Australia do it either. I don't recall Glasgow doing it against Racing
I don't really watch any AP rugby including when I'm in the UK (last game was 2015 Premiership Final). Top 14, ERC and Internationals.
Look at the pic a page or two back explaining how Aus did it. I have seen it done a fair amount. Glasgow didn't do it against Racing. they attacked the rucks but every now and then they do it. Been doing it for years as an occasional surprise
Yes Farrell was pish today, but he's been one of the world's form players of late and is a shoe in for a Lions spot, one game doesn't take that away!
Yeah but if you take his kicking out of the equation what exactly does he bring to the party?
If Ford's goalkicking was as good as Farrell's then would we need him at 12? All those pundits picked Farrell in a world XV last year but I couldn't see why, except for his kicking.
If you picked a 7s team from the England squad you might have Ford in it but not Farrell.
As TJ says he's a good club player (behind an awesome pack) but all this talk of him being world-class and being as good as JW is nonsense.
Russel got more for nothing but goal kicking!
I think Farrell brings plenty to the table, and id prefer him at 10 to Ford.
England were shite yesterday. However those providing the critique should remember that this team has now won 17 matches in a row, against some quality opposition, as well as Wales & Italy.
For me an interesting sub plot was Haskell asking the questions - not Hartley who on the second occasion walked over in support. Supposedly Hartley was there for his leadership - where was it?
IT'S NOT FAIR!!!
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😆
Indeed. World class whinging from the england camp and fans
Italy tactics a ‘joke’, says furious Jones | The Times
The Aussies using it last year,sorry it is behind a paywall. I have seen Glasgow use it and Leicester as well. I can't understand how England didn't get a message on from the side,it is fairly easy to work around,but I am sure O'Shea would have prepped for that. Very clever; O'Shea has gone up in my estimation.
This is the classic "but they didn't let us play our gameplan". It's also why I think Scotland should tour developing nations. To remember how to play off the cuff rugby.
Eddy Jones knows both he and his players were out thought. He's angry because he knows it and he no reply. Imagine if ABs had done it.
I don't really understand it - after about 8 minutes I thought, "Why don't England just carry it straight up the middle if there's no ruck?"
So why didn't England figure that out until nearly half time?
I fear it's because successive generations of English players have been coached as to exactly what to do in any given situation and are therefore incapable of thinking for themselves.
EJ has stressed he's trying to get the players to make their own decisions but you can't undo a lifetime of learned behaviour overnight - or at all.
CFH - sorry - but Itoje stays on his feet really well and clamps on.
The difference yesterday was the constancy of the tactic. Every time the 9 tried to pass he had 2 defenders blocking the pass. Most other times you see it as a one-off.
But, England got the bonus point win, I seem to remember Wales not getting one.
YEAH BUT WE BEAT WALES WE BEAT WALES...WALES WE BEAT YOU!!!
Oh and as an aside. Itoje is going to get pinged off the park for going off his feet at some point, I just hope its after the Lions tour.
I've reflected on it more overnight and irrespective of if you think England should have responded more quickly and adapted it's still a pretty negative tactic. To not compete for the ball when you have the opportunity to but merely surround the play to cut off options is really the act of a capitulating team trying to limit the size of the loss. Once opposition teams are 'programmed' to know what to do when they see it to nullify it there becomes much less point. So it's a tactic for losers and very few teams enter a match with that as there mindset so it will fade away quickly. The only time I could see it as a viable option would be if one team gained a sizeable lead at the beginning of a match and there was a momentum swing(maybe injury to key players for a team with a mediocre bench) and they were hanging on at the end.
I think the most telling comments are that Jones wanted to deflect from his teams poor performance. Ford and Farrell both kicked poorly from hand.
Farrell missed a lot of goals, but most were sideline conversions.
After the first 2 scrums (Cole unfairly pinged IMHO - -Italian went under him) we were in complete control over the set piece. Our line out defence was top class and I think we were 100% on our own ball.
The Campo try was the only time we missed tackles - we withheld a lot of pressure without looking troubled.
Daly had another good game, Brown did very well under the high ball, Itoje was everywhere and........ WE WON. Again.With a BP.
Italy beat SA. Could've beaten Wales. Next match I'm looking forward to all the criticism of what England can't do, hopefully after another under-par win.
For me the strangest thing was changing scrum half when Care had worked it out as was a threat with his pace.
Yes spoiling, nothing wrong with it, England slow to react, Jones maybe at fault for this as easier to see when removed from the action, but ultimately the players should recognise much quicker how to counter the tactic.
Think back to Wales failed exit that cost them the game and they should have gone through another phase as that is their standard practice, rugby is so structured that anything outside of that often causes a problem. Englands structure was thrown out of the window they didn't react well at all.
Hard to comment on the performance of the backs in a game like that as not much ball made it out of the contact area.
Itoje doesn't go off his feet otherwise refs would penalise him, as they don't then he's legal.
So it's a tactic for losers
Well the Chiefs have deployed it frequently in Super Rugby and they've consistently been one of the top sides in recent years, winning the title twice.
True he was deflecting criticism and usually like his straightforward responses but I felt he was a bit sour yesterday. He should have left it at the "well done Italy's coaching team" bit. The rest was overly sour grapes
Still keep the flak coming because it's crap being the side who is 3:3 and with a BP and who has the ability to turn a poor iH around rather than being one that dominates the 1H then manages to lose with poor decision making thrown in 😉
Itoje doesn't go off his feet otherwise refs would penalise him, as they don't then he's legal.
He does and sooner or later it will start to be looked at by refs. My worry is that the pressure will be ramped up by the Kiwis prior to the fisrt Lions test and the refs will go looking.
He's a great player and will be key for the Lions but I can see the problems coming. Can he adapt?
I suspect Itoje is smart enough to adapt McCaw style - push the ref, get pinged, scale it back a bit.
That's what all good players do - either that or yap at the ref/plead for the whistle 😉
lol at "tactic for losers"
Haven't the SH been saying that about England's (well, NH's) 9 man rugby for years? 😉 🙂
If you watch carefully, he's very attuned to the ref, and let's go instantly he gets told to.
If you watch carefully, he's very attuned to the ref, and let's go instantly he gets told to.
True, its more his superman dives into rucks and not supporting his weight when going for the ball
Nothing well done about it. As I said Ventner should be ashamed. All this on a weekend when England stood up for Italy being part of the 6N despite being ranked lower than Georgia. Maybe the last team should be relegated.
True, its more his superman dives into rucks and not supporting his weight when going for the ball
Shades of O'Driscoll
Sour grapes and whinging much? From people who don't understand the game and from a team without enough brains to work it out?
Nothing well done about it.
Was it OK when Aus did it to Ireland. Gustard said they planned for it.
On relegation - I would be happy for the team finishing last to play a playoff with the team top of the 2nd tier european comp which has been Georgia for a while - so long as they were financially looked after. Not straight relegation tho.
The IRB should insist that the Georgians get decent amounts of AIs - like italy did for the decade before they entered the 5N. In that decade Italy won a few games to show they were worth a place.
