From that link TJ it says that mitigation will not apply for "intentional or highly reckless acts of foul play". Based on the text above, can they then differentiate between reckless and highly reckless? In which case, it seems like they didn't deem it intentional, 'just' reckless and therefore which is why they have been able to take into account mitigation. Or is this the potential fudge you're referring to?
yes - that and the using a different law so they could apply the mitigation.
I do think a red was too harsh a punishment for the crime but I also think the ref followed the laws and guidance properly. the problem is that the lawsand guidance do not allow the flexibility to make " common sense" decisions.
for me its either accidental - play on or red card. I just do not see how they can make it a yellow
I do think a red was too harsh a punishment for the crime but I also think the ref followed the laws and guidance properly. the problem is that the lawsand guidance do not allow the flexibility to make ” common sense” decisions.
This.
The decision was made based on events as if they were described in writing alone - but the reality was quite different when viewed and common sense would have said to play on.
Did they downgrade it to a yellow to save face rather than face the music that would inevitably been aimed at them for admitting it shouldn't have been penalised?
Well it's all the degree of negligence isn't it?
I find myself asking, what was he actually hoping to achieve? He ran toward the opponent, upright position, made no attempt to tackle or dodge, just turned a bit sideways and barged in. What was he aiming for here, legitimately within the rules of the game?
and barged in
Thats in correct. He checked and was pretty much stood still.
England would not have won with Steward remaining on the pitch but it would have been a lot closer
Why do you think that. Keenan subsequently failed a HIA and we were then without one of the most in-form players in the tournament.
Maybe the margin would have been higher.
Probably would have been 3 or four more tries.
Keenan's had a habit of scoring important tries, and setting them up.
And ripping into teams last quarter.
Still, wouldn't have materially effected the table as they got the bonus point anyway.
He was not still at impact - he jumped and turned and was in the air traveling forward at impact. Nor was Keenans motion " a sudden change in height" - he was at that height for a couple of paces
Edit - its a fudge to get what would be a fairish punishment without throwing the ref completely under the bus
He was not still at impact – he jumped and turned and was in the air traveling forward at impact. Nor was Keenans motion ” a sudden change in height” – he was at that height for a couple of paces
I think you have to look at it in real time. In slo-mo it looks bad, but basically he is on an international rugby field with a chance of getting the ball & then has to back out in the last moment. He has very little time to react.
OH I quite agree. He reacted badly but its a split second decision. He could have put his hands out.
Its not a charge into a ruck with arm tucked. I think he was very unfortunate but if instead he had put his hands out its unlikely Keenan gets a head injury and unlikely that any sanction would be taken
In attempting to get consistency the tight guidance allows for no discretion
deadlydarcy
Free Member
I guess you’ll just have to feed off the injustice of it all. It’s ok – we’ve been doing it for centuries. 😀
Maybees adapt a song?
By a lonely changing room wall
I heard an English coach call
Freddie, they have taken you away
For you stole Keenan's wits
Cause you can't control your hits
Now posh biscuits are tucked under your arm.
With apologies to the Dubliners and every other Irish band....
Nigel Owens take on the red card
There are a couple of things from the Freddie Steward decision which leave me scratching my head. A lot of referees I have spoken to are split: Was it reckless? Was there foul play? Was there mitigation? Or was it just an unavoidable "rugby collision" and play on. It comes down to your view on the day as a referee.
I couldn't argue if a red or yellow card had been given to Steward, but here is where I feel there is plenty of confusion.
If you do not believe Steward has done anything wrong, that it was a complete accident, a rugby collision, then there is no foul play and it's play on. Or, you can say Steward was careless but apply mitigation to apply a yellow card. But if, as the panel have found, you think Steward was reckless and there was foul play, then you are talking about a red-card offence.
My understanding was, and is, that if you have foul play and a reckless action, then the mitigation doesn't play a part in the process. Which is why the outcome of the hearing is a surprise. They haven't decided it was an accident or just a rugby collision, they have said that Steward was reckless and there was foul play. I am not sure, therefore, how they can apply mitigation.
I have used this scenario before: if you are driving and meeting the 30mph speed limit and someone runs out in front of you who you can't avoid, it's an accident and out of your control. If you are going 40mph – over the limit – and that happens, you are being reckless and don't have a leg to stand on.
I could understand if Steward had not been sent off. But I cannot understand the panel's verdict to reduce the punishment if they felt he was being reckless.
Watching it happen, I felt that if Steward had stood his ground and braced himself for impact, then he would have done nothing wrong. But the fact he was still moving forward and turned to not make a legal tackle... I feel he could have done something different to avoid that. And that's where the foul play comes in. In those conversations I have had with other referees, some are on a red card, some on yellow and some are just play on – and the reason some view it only as a sin-bin offence is because there is no reckless foul play in the first place by Steward, not because of any mitigation. Something about the committee's outcome does not add up.
Former players also divided
Hugo Keenan is not going in upright, he's down towards the chest level of Steward, and that would have counted as mitigation if Steward had done everything he could to avoid a collision. But I'm not sure he did, which is why I felt it was closer to a red card. There is almost a half skip or a jump forward into the contact. Ex-players I have spoken to are also divided, with those leaning toward red doing so because of how Steward comes in. Whereas others are saying they don't know how Steward can do anything different.
Jaco Peyper in that situation is following the framework because he views the incident as reckless and foul play - as have the judiciary – and Jaco has therefore rightly ended up with a red card. You can't be in a position where you think you're going to give a yellow card, but if a player goes off for a head injury assessment you then increase the sanction. Jaco, in terms of following the framework, has done everything right.
I think the judiciary needs to look at their wording, at why they are applying mitigation when they say it's reckless and foul play. Or, the framework needs to be adjusted so referees can apply mitigation. But if you do that, you are on dangerous ground.
Referees should always use a final real-time replay
I once gave a red card to Iain Henderson in a game between Ulster and Munster, and then saw it again on review after the match and thought "b----- hell, Nigel, that's not a red card", and it was quite rightly overturned – but because the foul play was not a red-card offence in the first place.
The Steward incident looks a lot worse in slow-motion, but slowing it down can help you see exactly what has happened. I would always base my ultimate decision though on a final real-time replay, which I think officials need to make sure they do before deciding on a call.
Finally, there is an ongoing trial in Super Rugby in which players can be shown yellow cards and then the incident is reviewed off-field and potentially upgraded to a red card. The Steward example would not fit with that. You have a 60-40 split among referees I have spoken to between it not being a red card and Steward being sent off.
There are four people and the TMO in the box who should be able to make the right decision after a few replays. I don't see the benefit of the TMO having a further eight-minute window to review it. The best officials are appointed for these games for a reason. We need to trust them to make the right calls on the field.
Interesting that the dynamics of the situation didn't come into play in previous citing boards
Was it fagerson who hit a ruck just as a player moved position and got clocked?
Steward was moving forward and was never in a bent position to make a tackle. Yes he turned but it was always going to be a dodgy contact.
Or as I believe has been said on past, non white, cases. Dry your eyes it's been done (and now fudged).
Team of the 6N. Not mine but from two sources.
PA NEWS AGENCY
15. Hugo Keenan (Ireland)
14. Damian Penaud (France)
13. Huw Jones (Scotland)
12. Gael Fickou (France)
11. Mack Hansen (Ireland)
10. Finn Russell (Scotland)
09. Antoine Dupont (France)
08. Caelan Doris (Ireland)
07. Josh Van der Flier (Ireland)
06. Sebastian Negri (Italy)
05. James Ryan (Ireland)
04. Thibaud Flament (France)
03. Finlay Bealham (Ireland)
02. Dan Sheehan (Ireland)
01. Pierre Schoeman (Scotland)
PLANETRUGBY.COM
15. Thomas Ramos (France)
14. Damian Penaud (France)
13. Huw Jones (Scotland)
12. Sione Tuipulotu (Scotland)
11. James Lowe (Ireland)
10. Johnny Sexton (Ireland)
09. Antoine Dupont (France)
08. Caelan Doris (Ireland)
07. Francois Cros (France)
06. Charles Ollivon (France)
05. James Ryan (Ireland)
04. Thibaud Flament (France)
03. Finlay Bealham (Ireland)
02. Dan Sheehan (Ireland)
01. Andrew Porter (Ireland)
Whats yours? Sexytoes or Finnsanity at 10?
Can you make a case for any England player?
Does anyone NOT have Dupont at 9?
Why is big Ritchie not in either team?
Why is Duhan not in either team? Does his sometimes poor defensive positioning outweigh his ridiculous scoring and tackle breaking stats?
🙂
No one? I expect leads of bleating from AA 😉
If the answer at 12 isn't Fickou the teams not worth looking at...other than that too many welsh
I expect leads of bleating from AA
Too busy counting Welsh six nations championships and grand slams...Scotland meanwhile..........
Also one team has Mack Hansen and the other has James Lowe when Penaud and zan Der Whatsit are available. Madness. Ireland are an excellent team but the two wingers are relative weaknesses.
Huwipuloto! so good they only have one name between them
I mean who is more scottish ( and hates the English more) than them - a south african with a welsh name and an Aussie born Polynesian with a granny from Greenock
( Actually Jones was born in leith 🙂 )
I actually think too many Scots in those teams. the only one yo can really argue for is Finn and its not obvious between him and Sexytoes
Duhan despite being a formidable attacker ( and great stats) was caught out defensively too often again. Mind you I could watch him handing off Dombrant time and time again. How embarrassing for a no8 to be handed off by a winger 🙂
It might not be even be Dombrants most embarrassing play in the tournament. He just looks ponderous in international rugby.
Hogg to retire after world cup
By the look of things the great AWJ has also played his last game at home for Ospreys
Hoggs lost a touch of pace and his form and injury record over the last couple of years is not great. Understandable call - he is not going to be the automatic pick at 15 in future for Scotland
Delete
Anyone here coached any Youth teams that can provide some advice?
After our head coach leaves this season I've been ask to consider volunteering at my kids club as a Backs coach from September. This is on the basis a) I've played before and b) I can't stop enthusiastically pacing the touch line and reading the game banging out advice and the occasional "****sake!"
The club will pay for a level one basic qualification which is great, but what I'd really like to know is what is the realistic time commitment?
By the look of things the great AWJ has also played his last game at home for Ospreys
Yeah, but then he is about 30 years older than Hogg and has 3 grand slams in his back pocket, coincidentally that's the same as Scotland although now one less than Ireland now.....
@Kryton57 a fair amount 2training sessions and game on Saturday. I'd guess the coaching course a first aid course and possibly a reffing course.
Very rewarding but parents can be a pain.
As long as your not head coach the work load should be bearable, the level 1 course was a full weekend when I did it but was really good fun. One thing I would say is ask your son about how he feels about having his dad as one of the coaches?
All good points thanks. I have asked my son and he's ok with it, although he's so laid back he probably wouldn't see an issue anyway, but my own Dad ruined the Scouts for me, so I am conscious of that.
Fur us its Wednesday Training and Sunday Training / Match, but this would be on top of 5 bike training sessions a week plus work leaving me no time at all for anything else. I think perhaps this is a stretch too far - if I wasn't bike training & racing I could do it, so maybe its a thought for years to come.
Anyone watches Eng V Wales women’s 6N? What a game, I thought Wales had it on the 1H but England really sorted themselves out after that. Some monumental efforts from both sides.
A couple of interesting stats
Ryan Wilson is leaving Glasgow after 13 years and 220 caps - only 8 yellow cards in that time. Given he is at the centre of every bout of handbags and a real wind up man thats remarkable but the one that got me was that Glasgow have only kicked one penalty goal this year. Every other pen has gone to the corners. that shows attacking intent alright
Yep Glasgow are a good team to watch this season. I hope they manage to put some silverware on the table.
Nowell fined £10k for calling a ridiculous ruling ridiculous on social media
Take someone's head off, turn up with biscuits and have a seat for 3 weeks. To be fair Dickson was caught between a rock and a hard place but the ruling sets a rubbish precident for the last 5m of the pitch.
I saw that, ref seemed almost apologetic but from my time with the whistle - we don't set the laws, just apply them, and as soon as you start to busk the ones you don't like, consistency disappears and you let your reffing colleagues down.
I also just was catching up on missed posts, and @kryton - don't want to muddy waters unduly but did you decide to / not to put your hand up for coaching. Because my 2p, which you didn't ask for but you're getting it anyway 😉
If you don't, who else will? Does it compromise overall. Not to bully you into it but can be a factor, the same few always seem to be the ones that coach, man the bar / BBQ, paint the scorebox, put the ground to bed at the end of the season and so on.
You say with your own training there's no time, maybe in a couple of year's time. Will the opportunity be there in a couple of years time? Although in many ways I screwed up my son's basketball I absolutely look back on them with fondness, the times we spent with me helping and fetching and carrying for the coach and sharing the experience while it was there. Just like weeksy is living the dream through his son. Don't miss that opportunity, or put different - if you decide to pass up on it now in favour of your own aspirations, get your head properly in that game and do justice to the decision.
Free advice, worth what you paid for it, apologies if it is a bit direct.
I get the rules is rules part (ex-ref) but now as a captain I'd be asking the question about every tackle when the player dives for the line and is hit in the air. Wet plastic pitch bet you can slide it in from at least 5m out
Imagine penalty on the 5m get winger running at full belt, pop pass to him and he hits the deck immediately. Try time every time.
Josh Navidi has retired after failing to overcome neck injury. 😟
Just read that. Pretty gutted, I always liked watching him playing (except when he was facing Glasgow or Scotland).
That's a shame, he always looked like a handful.
I was just about to post about Navidi.
I’m a huge fan-boi, loved watching him play. I met him in Saundersfoot a couple of years ago, really nice guy, embarrassingly apologetic about getting injured, especially when he was in a patch of good form.
Just as we thought Welsh rugby couldn't sink further (till next season when all the good players have left) Dai Young gets suspended by Cardiff. Who can they afford to get in to replace him, my nan probably...can't wait to see the usual Welsh way of leaving no stone unturned in a worldwide search for the best talent only to end up promoting the currently under achieving forwards coach at Cardiff to head bus. Who is Cardiff forwards coach?
Josh Navidi has retired after failing to overcome neck injury.
That's awful. Can only wish him all the best in the future
I cannot see how rugby can survive as anything like the game we know. The toll on the players is just too much. Head injuries and dementia, other injuries leading to life long issues. Its just too brutal. these guys are wrecking their bodies and brains for our entertainment.
Watching a game last night forwards running with the ball so doubled over that a legal tackle is just about impossible and the ball players head is in such a vulnerable position. Massive collisions between behemoths
I have no idea what can be done but I just do not see how the game can survive. This makes sobering reading
Josh Navidi has retired after failing to overcome neck injury. 😟
Such a shame. One of my favourite non-England players. Always seemed to me less spoken about than Faletau, for example, but always an exceptional performer.
Currently watching a try-fest worthy of Twickers between Quins and Bath.
Hogg's interview about his retiring does highlight the physical battering they take. Both his knees are suffering. Mind you that's not new saw Kim Renwick up the park today and I think he's now got two new knees.
