I think the lesson is that Ireland have had their structures ( both playing and off the pitch) right after the game went pro and the only real aim has been to improve the national side. Everything is geared to that.
The head contact / foul play protocols / process
clip of the incident
Interesting, so basically the question is foul play yes or no. If yes it's a red if no then it's play on. Foul play includes reckless but also avoidable.
The collision was arguably unavoidable, but given the way the game needs to change then Steward was always going to struggle after dropping his shoulder in, even if that was not maliciously intended.
Thats how I see it. No attempt at a legal tackle,
Don’t watch the clip of Ryan I think hitting a ruck, or rather Ludlams head….
Stewards red could have been viewed as a yellow if you took the view that he was going to compete for the ball and was not making a tackle, Irish player was at lowered height. I’ve think it could have been a different outcome with a different ref that’s why there is debate. No problem with it being red just feel it’s a bit harsh on a player trying to avoid a collision.
As for Ireland I heard the other day one of their schools has a rugby budget of 1 million! Production line starts right there.
And Baird is going to be some player!
Don’t watch the clip of Ryan I think hitting a ruck, or rather Ludlams head….
This one?
https://twitter.com/theofficialcox/status/1637158650451050497?t=IJFNovPcVXestWdb-8IpUQ&s=19
Ref stood right in front and does nothing!
To me the biggest inconsistency yesterday was the yellow for tip tackle by Willis, but just a pen for Fickou doing the same in the France game. That seemed even clearer for Fickou but the ref in France/Wales did seem to let more go generally.
Yes but that was one of probably several from both teams in the game.
My point was meant to be it is a very hard game to ref, stuff gets missed, interpreted differently by different refs, there are very view deliberate acts of foul play these days, but the game has to change.
The jackal is possibly the most exposed position, players get repeatedly hit in this position, also when carrying bent at the waist as they do now nearly always will involve head contact. The game will change in the next few years.
Stewards red could have been viewed as a yellow if you took the view that he was going to compete for the ball and was not making a tackle, Irish player was at lowered height. I’ve think it could have been a different outcome with a different ref that’s why there is debate. No problem with it being red just feel it’s a bit harsh on a player trying to avoid a collision.
If you are serious about trying to prevent concussion-inducing tackles, even where there is no intent, by handing out reds, then you have to accept that there will be instances where reds are given which look pretty harsh. It's a conscious decision by the sport that it is prepared to accept collateral outcomes like that to improve overall safety for players.
But it is a contact sport, and intent is just as important as action.
Sexton is a fine example of milking head contact for the ref's benefit. He was rolling around the floor trying to eke a penalty in the first half. Farrell asked the ref if it was so bad he's clutching his bonce, why is he not off for an HIA?
It'll turn the game into football, and no-one really wants that. It's bad enough the scrum half waving their arms around all the time, rather than getting the ball out.
It's a shame that the red nullified the contest. Ireland looked rattled and kindly old Jonny Sexton was losing his rag long before Jamie George squashed him flat.
Ok boomer
Tee hee, have a like.
It's difficult because a red card early on is often a game losing moment - but if the sport doesn't adapt to minimise the brain injury risk then it will end. Need to be careful we don't macho our game out of existence
Yup I accept that there will be reds like yesterday, I feel that maybe the repeated collisions of jackal and ball carrier dipping maybe more problematic. If the lower tackle height they are going to have to make ball carrier not dip into contact
If the lower tackle height they are going to have to make ball carrier not dip into contact
Yeah, at the moment the responsibility for the nature of the collision falls entirely on the tackler, if you are going to penalise even inadvertent bad contact based on the positioning of the defender, at some point you'll have to look at how the attacker enters contact and pass some of that responsibility on. The end goal is simply to reduce the number of head vs hard bit collisions.
It will feel even more harsh when you're carding someone as they're getting a concussion test!
to me the answer is we need to revise the whole card system. Perhaps have 3 levels. Deliberate action - red card. You team plays the rest of the game with 1`4 men. Accident / careless ( like Stewards) orange card - off for 20 mins then a replacement comes on. Yellow card as now
In Gaelic Football they have a black card whereby the player is replaced - you'll still 15.
I've watched that several times. If Steward had gone lower it would have been a much more serious head to head. What choice did he have?
Not to jump / turn into him then it would have been passive thus a yellow or even no foul as the Keenan would have run into him or put his hands out then its an attempt at a legal tackle - yellow at worst.
the two actions jumping and turning into him and tucking his hands down by his sides make it the red card once the head is hit
When I was taught to play rugby, one of the things I remember being told was never, ever, bend forwards to pick up the ball if there is an opponent coming towards you: Step past it & turn your shoulder intowards the oncoming player, thus protecting yourself & the ball. Basic stuff that seems to have been forgotten. Personally I would say the Irish player bears at least some of the responsibility for the contact.
I think he hesitated because he would have tackled him before he got to the ball, no? But he ballsed it up - simply tackling early would have only been a penalty?
No if he'd tackles him properly it would have gone back for the forward pass.
There was no whistle before that. It is odd positioning then the turn that does for him.
He's undone by his run up into the defensive line from being deep behind the line.
I see the U20s secured a second GS in a row. Another red and a yellow for the youngsters in white - clearly discipline is a problem throughout. 😀 That’d be three out of the last five years that the U20s have completed a GS. Arguably, they were headed for one in 2020 but for the pandemic. Cracking weekend for the green machine.
Loved the hug between Andy and Owen, it at least proves Owen can wrap his arms.
Oohhh - saucer of cream for LeeW
Oh I dunno, I thought it was quite funny. 😀
Oh me too. Hell of a catty comment tho
Ollie Chessum’s “little” brother Lewis looks like a serious prospect. England beaten in the end but well in it until the cards started to come out. Green machine production line in good shape!
"England players and staff were left stunned by Freddie Steward’s red card against Ireland, which the RFU will try to overturn at a disciplinary hearing on Tuesday."
Just say previous good form etc etc and being it to two games. Do not overturn it. There's no case to do that.
Now the dust of the 6N is settling which one player from any 6n side would you want to add to your team? for me its Peter O'Mahony. There are faster more skillful forwards out there although he is no donkey but what he has is a hard edge that he keeps just about inside th elaws. Never a backward step, never does his head go down. He never knows his team is beaten.
Scotland have players to match most teams in most positions and in a few cases some real world class players but we are missing that hard edge that POM brings.
Mind you I hate him when we play against him ad he has a real grudge against Glasgow.
It's a bit obvious but Antoine Dupont - the only issue would be having the quality around him that could live with and link up with him
AS a Scotland fan we have decent 9s. yes Dupont is the best in the world but I think POM would strengthen the Scots team more. Our real weakness is the lack of that hard edge that does not stray over the line to thuggery
Now the dust of the 6N is settling which one player from any 6n side would you want to add to your team? for me its Peter O’Mahony. There are faster more skillful forwards out there although he is no donkey but what he has is a hard edge that he keeps just about inside th elaws. Never a backward step, never does his head go down. He never knows his team is beaten.
It's funny because many Irish fans question how he gets on the team, he is a divisive figure along Provincial lines with most Leinster fans think Conan should start ahead of him and Dorris move to 6. I disagree but I would as a Munster fan 🙂
For me it would be Thibaud Flament, the area Ireland could do with some strengthening is 2nd row. Ryan & Beirne together is a little light weight and anyway you need at least 4 top quality locks for a tournament given number of injuries in this position.
Wooden spoon? Reminds me of this at the borders general hospital.
[url= https://i.ibb.co/ykDsM5p/PXL-20230317-144440457.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.ibb.co/ykDsM5p/PXL-20230317-144440457.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
he has a real grudge against
That’s his issue. He even tried to pick a fight with Sinckler after the match was won and during the celebrations, Google it.
Well, the red card has been rescinded
I am surprised. Ruled as a rugby incident? Linky?
Edit - found it on the BBC but no story just the headline
Yeah just heard it on R5 bulletin
England fullback Freddie Steward appeared before an independent Disciplinary Committee via video link having received a red card in the Guinness Six Nations match between Ireland and England on Saturday 18th March 2023 played at the Aviva Stadium.
The Red Card was issued as a result of the Referee concluding that the Player had acted contrary to Law 9.13 (A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously. Dangerous tackling includes, but is not limited to, tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders),
The independent Disciplinary Committee consisting of Nigel Hampton KC – Chair (New Zealand), Frank Hadden (Scotland) and John Langford (Australia) heard the case, and considered all the available evidence, including multiple broadcast angles and submissions from the Player and his representative.
After hearing the submissions, the Disciplinary Committee formally amended the Law which was breached to Law 9.11 (Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others including leading with the elbow or forearm, or jumping into, or over, a tackler.)
The player denied that he had committed an act of foul play worthy of a red card as described in Law 9.11. Having reviewed all the evidence, the Committee decided that: (i) head contact with an opposing player had occurred; (ii) there had been an act of foul play in breach of Law 9.11 in that the Player had been reckless in his actions and in his upright positioning as he approached and came into highly dangerous contact with the other player; and (iii) there were sufficient mitigating factors including the late change in the dynamics and positioning of the opposing player which should have resulted in the issue of a yellow card rather than a red card.
On that basis, the Committee did not uphold the red card and the player is free to play again immediately.
The Committee acknowledged that match officials are required to make decisions under pressure and in the heat of a live match environment."
To me thats a really pervese decision - clearly looking for a way to downgrade it
to me its either rule it a rugby incident ie no fault and then its play on or its an act of foul play and therefore red. that simply does not fit in with the framework the refs have to use.
D'you think?
It seems fair-ish. There was a whack to the head but with mitigation.
Doesn't get him back on the field for the last 35 minutes, though.
Because under the guidelines mitigation cannot be applied for that incident
Mitigation will not apply for intentional or highly reckless acts of foul play
https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/guidelines/17
What they have done is a confusing fudge that will make life even harder for refs
all IMO of course
The Committee acknowledged that match officials are required to make decisions under pressure and in the heat of a live match environment.
Did they also acknowledge that despite applying the laws as supplied to them (which aimed to reduce head injuries in the sport, regardless of intent), match officials can be later undermined because it seemed a bit harsh?
It seems fair-ish. There was a whack to the head but with mitigation.
Doesn’t get him back on the field for the last 35 minutes, though.
This for me. England would not have won with Steward remaining on the pitch, but it would have been a lot closer, especially if the high tackle on Watson and the head on Ludlum had been penalised. We would have all been on the edge of our seats even more so.
I guess you’ll just have to feed off the injustice of it all. It’s ok - we’ve been doing it for centuries. 😀
