Forum menu
Direct democracy (anarchism)
I don't know of any examples where that's worked. On the other hand, the system you appear to be criticising has a lot of the hallmarks of anarchy; people do what they like, according the power they hold. There's no point me practicing anarchism, I'd be dead in a week.
Looking at the racism in the current asylum seekers debate, I can't see that we'll ever go back into the EU
Some people want to cling tight to their xenophobia and plenty of politicians know that demonising foreigners is a great way to distract from your incompetence & corruption
Braverman being the perfect example of that
Direct democracy (anarchism) is the only way to break the perpetual loop of stupidity we have been in for centuries/millennia.
Your naivety is touching.... you were surprised the UK left the EU.. if you had referenda (direct democracy) for e.g.
bringing back hanging
zero immigration
Castrating rapists (or suspected of)
Throwing troublemakers in chokey for a couple of years e.g. extinction rebellion
Or any other bits of populist nonsense, you might get a result that surprises, and doesn't delight, especially if there's a bit of hokey advertising/propaganda to help things along
Anarchism is not chaos, that's what you've been sold by the television. It is a rejection of authority. People naturally want for some minor administrations, however the only way to prevent our 'servants' from controlling us is to invent a system of direct democracy. It's actually pretty simple. You need no examples of it having worked, indeed you would not find any because it is the last thing your servants (controllers) want.
You mistrust the people if you think the majority want hanging, castration etc. Most people do the right thing. Although again, you reveal your elitist stance whereby YOU decide what's right and can't have the MAJORITY deciding.
A rather disgusting stance for an adult.
There is no incompetence. Engage your brain for two minutes. The guys and gals that went to the top unis and into the top firms are not exactly stupid are they. They are brighter than most. They are VERY competent and that is why they do so well at doing as they are told by their superiors. The privileged and successful have a higher concentration of liars and psychopaths. That is how they maintain their position. No qualms in lying to and stealing from the public they are meant to serve. They are the wolves. The plebs (the proles) having a higher sense of unity and decency due to conscience, are less able to do the same. They are the herd.
'Disaster' of a PM for 44 days and £115k pa for life. That's not what happens to 'disaster' employees now is it. It's a reward for playing a valuable role.
The whole system needs to be destroyed but first the illiterate 'electorate' needs to wake up to reality that 'voting' just perpetuates the western civilisation death spiral.
Parklife!
Again you want the EU to change to suit the UK’s needs. What’s really needed is a sea change in UK attitudes.
Again, i think you have misinterpreted what i was trying to convey - tbf i was only really shooting the shizzle with probably/definitely a quite heavy dose of wishful thinking.
I see it as a long term, incremental process, you are absolutely right that the necessary direction of travel is for us to steer toward the EU. I see it as a gradual process to full membership, with ALL that entails, but it will take probably another decade at least, possibly two.
There is an immediate threat that needs to be addressed, however, and this actually affects a Member State - the only 'fudge' one would hope for along the way - and that is the border issue in Ireland. This is where in an ideal world some sort of agreement could be reached to protect the GFA and commit us to some sort of regulatory alignment to the EU. This would need to be done soon, so that's why i'm suggesting it would be helpful if we could unhitch it from FoM so that it could go down well with the, well, call them what you will.
I think you make a fair point that there were many people in the UK (one is always tempted to rather put 'England' here) who saw the EU as a loveless marriage of convenience, but i think you do us a bit of a disservice in suggesting it's as widely held as you imply. Certainly outside of the purely political sphere in the Community i think people ^upthread have made equally good points about the cooperation and fraternity that existed outside of that.
But political engagement would have to change, on that you are absolutely right. There would be no point in rejoining if we were again to send some sort of Farage 2.0 with a clone army of w@nkers to the European Parliament. And again, this might be wishful thinking, but over the course of the next decade one would hope that the demographic change will happen alongside an attitudinal one. I know quite a few people who just missed out on the Referendum vote in 2016 who are still mad as hell about it. There has got to be a good chance that Farage will be dead by 2035 as well - every little helps.
Really i was just trying to imagine a scenario that would bring us back into the fold in the shortest time possible. Dream on, eh?
to elect one party that is controlled by the same hidden hand
If it's hidden how do you know about it?
Anarchism is not chaos, that’s what you’ve been sold by the television.
No, I've actually thought about it and made up my own mind. Let me explain.
Most people do want to do the right thing, you are correct. But a significant minority don't, so they will use violence to take what you have. So how do you respond to that? You organise so that you can have a defence force of some kind, to prevent people outside your group doing violence against you. But wait, sometimes people within your group have arguments and get angry - so you need to stop them killing each other, and somehow give out fairness. So that means you need some form of policing and justice now too. So you're farming, and you need tools and stuff and you want the good ones made of iron. You don't have any iron in your area, the neighbours do but you are brilliant at growing carrots. You can trade carrots with the neighbours, but they only need so many carrots. So you need to trade carrots to the other neighbours, but they don't have iron. Hmm, perhaps they can exchange carrots for some kind of token valuable thing that you can all gather and pass around to each other to get the things you want. Oh look, you've created money and an economy.
We have societies and governments because we need them to protect people from those who would do us harm or rob us. True anarchy is impossible, because people will always organise to protect themselves.
You might be talking about small scale communism, but that's a different discussion.
If it’s hidden how do you know about it?
Because I'm awake, unlike the majority of the populace.
I appreciate your reasoned response. It actually describes how we got to where we are, as did other civilisations. More organisation/administration is always sought in order to provide for and protect our own. Government only grows.
However. It is contingent on a promise: that our servants SERVE us and never seek to control us. Which has not been the case for a very long time. That's because the rich always befriend the government and the two work for each other while screwing over the people. The government enforces its will (its orders from its corporate masters) by threat, injury, imprisonment and death. Like an out of control dog, it must be put down. There is no alternative.
Only an outside-of-the-box solution will solve this conundrum: direct democracy with a very small administration to run life's essentials, with power in the hands of the people.
The fact that most people cannot comprehend let alone imagine such a system is indicative of the fact that most people have rather average minds. People who think outside the box are often maligned, ridiculed or at least misunderstood by most. It would be easy to do, especially now with the available technology.
BUT, as I've already said, first the masses must awaken to what is actually going on because until then they will continue to defend the current system and the security (they perceive) it gives them. See Morpheus' speech to Neo about fighting (you) to protect it.
Does Morpheus have a road map for rejoining the EU?
Movies aren't actually real, right? You do know that?
This is where in an ideal world some sort of agreement could be reached to protect the GFA and commit us to some sort of regulatory alignment to the EU. This would need to be done soon, so that’s why i’m suggesting it would be helpful if we could unhitch it from FoM so that it could go down well with the, well, call them what you wil
The "deal" revolved around just that, and does a very good job of protecting the GFA given that Wesminster tried to rip it to pieces. The EU solution being a border down the Irish sea and St Georges Channel and FoM for NI citizens born before 2005 if they bother to ask for the Irish passports to which they have a right. And free trade between NI and Ireland! The result is that NI is in a very favourable position which won't be extended to the rest of the UK, Michel Barnier was very clear about that with the full backing of a unanimity of EU countries.
NI is enjoying an increase in inward investment, a boom in trade, growth at least in line with the rest of the UK rather than lagging as it did for decades. Quite handy being in the both the EU and UK. If you go back to the original Brexit thread you'll find I was the first to point out that the only way to preserve the GFA was a border down the Irish sea/ St Georges Channel. I got abuse for saying that a hard Brexit effectively tore up the GFA early in the debate. The EU Eurocrats came up with the solution, Barnier presented it and Boris signed it - it was that or no deal. Don't underestimate the Eurocrats and the European parliament.
I never realised that the lady in the red dress was an MEP. Wow.
On the one hand, I feel the need to rewatch it.
On the other hand, that would remind of the sequels and I do not want that.
True anarchy is impossible, because people will always organise to protect themselves.
+1
Read the original Brexit thread, Squirelking, and note remainers’ attitudes to the EU. the “project fear” thing was real, people didn’t vote remain because of their love of the EU, they voted remain because they realised that leaving the EU would cause them pain. You had a series of remain politicians from the cabinet and shadow cabinet selling remaining in the EU as nasty medecine but if you don’t take you’ll come out in a rash.
Not this Remainer. I'd worked across the world (and in over half the EU countries) and fully understood why been in the EU was the best for the UK and the vast majority of it's citizens (and for the EU). I'm fully supportive of its 'aims' and made my position quite clear (different username originally).
I am a Social Democrat and always have been - a flat(ter) 'playing field' is the only way of ensuring that the weak and/or poor don't suffer unduly. This matters to me, and having experienced how folk live & work in countries across the world, I don't want the UK to be like these countries.
I never realised that the lady in the red dress was an MEP. Wow.
She was actually STW's favourite ex-Tory Rory Stewart.
If you agree with democracy, and you believe the system is legitimate (i.e. not corrupt),
The two things aren't mutually exclusive though are they, I certainly agree with the basic goals of democracy, but I would definitely question the legitimacy of our current system where a bit of undue influence from Cambridge Analytica and/or the sway of the Barclay Bros or Murdoch Meeja seem to undermine what might be called 'legitimacy' a bit IMO.
And I really don't think you could claim that it's free of corruption could you? Not unless maybe you've slept through the last couple of years...
you have to accept the majority vote. If you can’t, you should just be honest and admit you don’t want the plebs to have a say and you would rather live under authoritarian rule – this is why lefties are often just as bad as those in ‘power’ whom they criticise.
I thought we already had accepted the (slim) majority on this particular topic, the faithful now claim to have "done" a Brexit don't they? It's pretty disingenuous to accuse those questioning/challenging the current Brexity age of wonder we're living in of trying to deny the 'plebs' their rights and implement authoritarianism. A robust democratic government and their supporters should be able to tolerate a bit of challenge to the (now) established leadership's ideas without needing to accuse dissenting voices of yearning for some sort of Stalinism...
Perhaps most interesting is that you label those not totally enamoured with modern Brexit-land as "Lefties" implying that Brexit and the puppets installed in 'power' in the UK since 2016 are mostly part of some ongoing Right-wing project? (to my little conspiratorial mind at least)
Anyway Back on topic(ish), the UK will only really be able to return to membership the EU by the same mechanism it left i.e. a referendum.
Which is only really worth calling when there's some certainty that the wider UK population recognise the benefits of EU membership and are interested in a vote to regain them.
Ultimately this will require time so people can really get to see how proper deregulation under a Tory government actually bites, how their employment rights start to get eroded, further financial suffering as the promised trade agreements continue not to appear and simply add to our already relatively high cost of living without furthering any economically useful activity other than shuffling oligarchs and Oil Sheiks money around...
Of course if we were to go and get a competent government in the next couple of years and they were to subsequently make a decent go of things, it might actually end up strengthening the argument for remaining outside the EU. bit of a catch 22(?)...
Perhaps the best thing to do is just be wary of making political wish lists for the future and concentrate on dealing with the world as it actually is now. From where we are today I would rather see a stable well run UK than worry about re-joining the EU, personally I think we're out until at least ~2035 now, all for the sake of a 2% margin...
Read the original Brexit thread, Squirelking, and note remainers’ attitudes to the EU.
I remember plenty of folk talking about lost opportunities for themselves, their employees, their children and their businesses if brexit came to pass. Plenty of people got it and still do, the majority up here voted to remain, everyone I know knew what leaving meant and what we'd be losing. Stop tarring us all with the shitty xenophobic stick you yourself like to constantly cry about.
As for one article espousing the positives, there are plenty, have a gander at the "What had the EU ever done for my..." articles.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/series/eu-referendum-reality-check
You seem to be deliberately missing my poing and finding excuses to insult instead.
Read the replies to the original Brexit thread. Even people who are now confirmed remainers were having doubts, some were even considering voting leave. There was little enthusiasm for the EU, some feared losing jobs, some were worried about losing freedom of movement, but a theme that runs through the thread is a dislike of the institution and reapeted whishes for it to be reformed and/or have its wings clipped:
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out/
a dislike of the institution and reapeted whishes for it to be reformed and/or have its wings clipped
Some see "dislike"... some see the need to improve... take our UK parliament, government and civil service... do I want us to have organisation, laws, coordination at that level? Yes. Do I want reform and fear overreach? Well... that would be putting it mildly. Likewise, I want us to be in the EU, something I'm unlikely to see again in my lifetime... but I sure want to see further reform of the EU. The weird thing about the argument back in 2016 is that the EU is always shifting and changing... and we should have been discussing what kind of change is need in future, rather than talking about withdrawal because it seemed a simpler more easy to understand path to many. Now we have no say. For decades. But will still be effected by the path the EU takes from here on... because, as Brexit campaigners kept telling us at the time... it wasn't about us leave Europe... we can't leaving Europe, it's where we live... we just gave up a huge slice of control over its direction.
Maybe we could have an advisory rather than fully legal referendum on rejoining the EU just as an indication of the will of the people?
Maybe we could have an advisory rather than fully legal referendum on rejoining the EU just as an indication of the will of the people?
Was just about to mention the advisory referendum, one of the biggest mistakes, IMO.
If it was a formal referendum, or whatever the correct term is, the threshold would have been higher than 51%/49%.
Also the rules around campaigning would be stricter, so the pro-brexit lobby simply wouldn't be alowed to keep lying about the pros/cons of membership.
But it was informal so the normal checks and balances wern't enforcable.
And then it was treated like the result had to be honored... for... 'reasons' ... the entire thing was a combination of stitch up and incompetence from the outset.
Dickyboy, is that, or was it ever, possible?
How could you stop people taking the result as final and not just the indicator that a fully thought out, structured discussion could take place, before a considered vote?
For clarification, my tongue was do firmly in my cheek that they became one.
For clarification, my tongue was do firmly in my cheek that they became one.
Does this mean we've "done tongues" 😱
Does Morpheus have a road map for rejoining the EU?
Movies aren’t actually real, right? You do know that?
Morpheus voted Leave.
What is real? How do you define real? Seriously though.. what you said doesn't make sense. By the same logic, books aren't real. Nor is music. In reality, these are all art forms which convey a message. Some of those messages are very real.
You didn't answer the question. If these things are secret how do you know? Awake isn't an answer.
@edukator yes there were people that did that. So what? They are not, and never were representative of every single remainer as you claimed. If you're trying to insult us just so we don't try to get back into your club I wouldn't waste your time. We know you're in there and despite that we still want back in. Time for you to make peace with that, shit happens.
The result is that NI is in a very favourable position which won’t be extended to the rest of the UK...
Perhaps you would like to tell the DUP that, so that they can thank their lucky stars, knuckle down, and elect a Speaker to open Stormont.
Crisis? What crisis?
Rabid. Dogs.
never were representative of every single remainer as you claimed.
I said "many remainers" read back it's at the top of the last page. Play fair.
Morpheus voted Leave.
So wrong. How could anyone be so blind as to believe that?
He voted for upholding human rights that were being eroded and for everyone living together in harmony.
That’s pro-remain.
To say otherwise raises questions about the rest of your agenda.
More seriously, @edukator, I think you have a point on the overall level of enthusiasm at times, but I don’t think that’s a particular issue in that sense.
It’s difficult to get overly enthusiastic about a form of economic and political structuring, and I’d worry about those who get overly enthused in either direction (that may include me).
All economic and political structures are compromises between freedoms and rights and economic security, etc. Sometimes even between one freedom and another because they are mutually exclusive.
So someone expressing it as the best compromise in the situation is not concerning. And if after the vote further events solidified that view, that too seems reasonable.
So yes, I take your point, but I would argue at some level it’s really moot.
I don't have much contact with people in the UK. However when anything significant happens in the world it's interesting to see what all those old friends and aquaintances with whom I've lost real life contact are contributing to Facebook. They fall into three geographical regions, the Midlands, West Wales and Devon.
The reactions to the vote in 2016 were fascinating, and there wasn't the remain majority we saw on STW. The Midlanders in particular are pretty Brexity, some enthusiastically so, and the remainers pragmatic but not very enthusiastic about the EU. The only really enthusistic remainers were the Devon crowd whohave tourism businesses and make full use of freedom of movement.
The latest polls:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-rejoin-poll-b2212730.html
show there's more and more enthusiam for rejoining but still the two biggest parties won't hear of it. Starmer's declation last week that he wouldn't rejoin confirmed him as the most useless oppostion leader since the last one. I asume he doesn't think there's enough enthusiam for rejoining amonst his potential electorate for it to be a vote winner. Perhaps if he were to get enthusiatic about the EU and present it the right way it could be th evote winner he needs. Starmer is a major headwind to rejoining.
Devon was pretty Brexity overall too.
Scotland, NI and the major cities were the remain / four freedoms tendency areas.
Interestingly initially the support for rejoin was far lower than for we shouldn’t have left / remain. Given where rejoin is now, the hidden support for the non-question of remain is probably well into the 60% range - but we’ll never know.
Given the variations in reporting I'm note sure exactly what the question that yielded 57/43 result was. Compare:
The UK accepting that Brexit was a damaging mistake doesn’t move us any closer to rejoining. We are not rejoining for decades, if at all. A partner country joining in CU, SM and FoM is a possible future… the UK will not be a full member again in our lifetimes.
Edukator - Im in Scotland. Everyone of my friendship group are enthusiastic remainers bar one reluctant and one leaver giving 30 or so enthusiastic remainers. the "many remainers" does not match my experience
Yes but it would if you used a really small sample of people spread across three small geographic areas, silly.
So yes, we're now supposed to accept that the motivations of "most remainers" are represented by a statistically insignificant number of people in Eds Facebook friends list that he admittedly doesn't have much contact with anyway.
This is perhaps why you're still friends with them, TJ. 🙂 Did you get to the Black Country on your UK tour. 😉 I heard a little too much about immigrants (I'm an immigrant) from some who I've stopped replying to.
I understand that the mood in Scotland is different as the referendum result and polls demostrate. I'm looking at the UK electorate as a whole when I say that voters need to find some genuine enthusiam for the EU project rather than "project fear" was right, and would appreciate those north of the border reading my posts with that in mind and perhaps not taking things so personally.
None of my comments on attitudes has been directly aimed at Squirrelking but he has contrived to take them that way and make some insulting replies directly aimed at me (as usual).
You didn't need to add "silly", Squirelking, it's just gratuitous insult.
You love anecdotal local stuff but object to others using anecdote. Play fair, you're just here to insult me as on every thread we share space on. Other people can read and understand you know, they can see who is being reasonable and apart from your local mates (who aren't on the thread so I won't name) you don't seem to have anyone with you.
Remember that “project fear” was a Brexy construct that most remainers didn’t really recognise. I.e. Brexies said that remainers said something negative and fear-mongering - remainers had said nothing of the sort of course, but the argument had moved on by the time they were saying it.
A bit of honesty that tearing up your trading arrangements with your biggest trading partner was unlikely to be a good thing is neither negative nor fear.
Better defined as common sense, but the Brexies didn’t like referring to it as “Project Common Sense”.
I don't want to get into a debate about "most", or "every single" but project fear was a term used by both prominent Brexies and remainers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear
There were many things it could have been called "Project Common Sense" as you suggest. See also "reality check", "not shooting yourself in the foot"," not cutting off your nose to spite your face". Somehow it was "project fear" that stuck. And you ask people if they're afraid of something the answer is often "no". "You go mountain biking, arnen't you afraid of getting hurt?" Nah
It was part of the psychological game, a game remain played rather poorly. Which brings me back to my original point, that remain failed to be enthusiastic about the EU and what it had done for the UK/UK citizens and relied on drab messaging. 
^^^that is drab message, when politicians say 'we guarantee'. You just know It's not happening.
What remainers used the term "Project Fear"? Apart from responding to Leavers trying to rubbish their arguments?
It wasn't happening !
On "workers' rights protected" my first thoughts were "zero hours contracts, hire and fire culture, working people to burnout - they're taking piss". The hypocrisy of Cameron defending the EU on issues the Tory party was at odds with Europe on must have had some people doubting his sincerity, me for one.
"Special status in Europe", how so? The UK is just a member of a union, nothing special. In fact all the opt outs mean the position is/was anything but special. Now Belgium could claim a special position: a load of European insititutions, European infrastrure, a few million people from two cultures who don't even like each other punching way beyond their weight in terms of influence.
I don’t want to get into a debate about “most”, or “every single” but project fear was a term used by both prominent Brexies and remainers:
Doesn’t that link say what I said? (Apart from the John McDonnell quote which is basically indecipherable.)