Stumpy - when did you last get on a bus? I suspect those who design the bus lanes understand rather more about what is needed. You want special roads for cars only so the rich can travel only on them? Nice
Oh dear, youre in one of those moods, last time I was on a bus, about a month ago. You're making stuff up "you want special roads for cars only so the rich travel on them" bit of a stretch from "I'm broadly in favour of bus lanes' and 'bring on the LTNs and enforced 20 zones'. Its almost like you didnt bother reading what I wrote.......
and designate certain routes as arteries so they flow.
Thats wanting special roads for rich people. If you do that those that cycle and use buses no longer can use those roads.
That and part time bus lanes, 7am to 10am and 4pm to 7pm FFS, if you’re going to do it, do it properly, 24/7 or don’t bother.
Just noting here that the dripped out information (they’re not leaks, they’re deniable briefings) is for exactly the opposite of this. Where Manchester and other regions have recently implemented full time bus lanes to make routes work outside rush hour for all road users the government are now saying they’re against this. No good evidence why… just that they know many voters don’t understand the need for them and so are against them in a reflex fashion. Every attempt to make roads work better involves a short term backlash against the measures… Sunk is banking on the timing of all this “on the side of motorists” nonsense will give him a bounce that could help build momentum toward the next general election.
No good evidence why… just that they know many voters don’t understand the need for them and so are against them in a reflex fashion.
Evidence? Pfft! Who needs 'evidence' when you've got a Daily Telegraph editorial
He's shamelessly courting the "we've had enough of experts" vote and look where thats got us so far. He might as well say that watching Countdown gives you cancer and eating marmite makes you allergic to goats. He may well say both those things on Monday, the way things are going.
On Tuesday he'll appoint Piers Corbyn as health minister
Thats wanting special roads for rich people. If you do that those that cycle and use buses no longer can use those roads.
News flash for mr tabloid its not just 'rich' people who drive in and out of Manchester, i would guess the vast majority are not what even you would refer to as rich so stop with the silly emotive labelling culture war rubbish, you're better than that.
As regards the arteries why can't they be both bus and car arteries? Most of the arterial roads in and out of Manchester are dual lane in each direction, it all goes to pot at junctions and tight spots in the network where the bus lanes disappear leaving the buses and other traffic to fight it out. The bus lanes should be continuous all the way into the city centre, have their own lights at the junctions ideally operated by induction loops in the bus lanes so the buses get priority when they get to the junction and the rest of the time when theres no buses the bus lights stay red, makes the buses flow and stops the dangerous undertaking at junctions. Why cant some of the roads be prioritised around cyclists (or buses). Not every arterial route in needs to accomodate normal traffic. The current half arsed mess we have doesnt work for anylne, least of all cyclists, and yes I have ridden in and out of Manchester, its not bad around the Etihad stadium where there are segregted cycle lanes (apart from the build up debris but thats a maintenance issue not a design one) but elsewhere the piss poor cycle infrastructure abandons you when you most need it.
Quite agree with you about the poor cycle provision - happens UK wide. Nice cycle lane where its not needed. cycleway stops just when its needed.
Look at the stats for car ownership - the poorer yo are th eless likely you are to have or use a car. thus any measures that are carcentric are automatically penalising non car users who are usually the majority in cities. Most urban journeys are not made by car.
This is pretty much bang on regarding all this nonsense
https://twitter.com/aliclow/status/1708078527818428465?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ
NHS falling apart, trains on strike, war in Ukraine dragging on and killing thousands, Brexit a failure, but making roads more dangerous is their answer.
I want special roads for busses.
I mean the guy still sounds a bit of a nobber, but he makes some valid points
BBC News - Iceland boss quits Tories labelling party 'out of touch'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66972357
Talking lots of words on BBC. Won't be drawn to comment on speculation on a decision, that's his to make, on HS2 going to Manchester.
All that obfuscation on an important decision on long term plans… on the eve of a conference with the tagline…
Painful to watch how shallow his beliefs are and just constant talking over interviewers
Also, how can he sit there with a straight face and argue he is cutting taxes by reducing inflation
I mean the guy still sounds a bit of a nobber, but he makes some valid points
Full of himself… but this line is his full announcement is key I feel…
Indeed, many lifelong Tories I know now find it hard to disagree that the country is in a considerably worse state than it was when their party returned to power 13 years ago.
I used to be very frustrated with, and campaigned against, the Labour Party back when they were in government. The last 13 years have shown me just how much £££££££ worse the country can be when the Tories are in power (yes, if you’re even older than me than previous administrations would have already embedded that truth in your conscious and subconscious, but I had had to learn it this century). This next General Election I’ll be offering any help I can to our local Labour candidate trying to become our MP. I suggest everyone does the same for whoever is best placed to kick out their local Conservative MP, or prevent their seat going blue. Don’t just moan about this government, help end it.
I'm not of the belief that starmer is much better (in that what I want and what he wants are different on some big issues) but he has some reasonably good politicians in his party who do seem to care about people and the country.
I won't be voting labour but I'm happy to campaign against the Tories.
I’m not of the belief that starmer is much better
True - I started off fairly hopeful but a lot of his policies and "red lines" seem to be basically "we're not quite as bad as the Tories".
There's not much there in the way of hope, ambition, making things better and rolling back some of the more damaging Tory policies from the last 13 years.
Sunak though is horrifically dangerous, he's gone full on culture war using the one war that always stokes everyone up - driving.
He’s so patronising and condescending it’s almost impossible to watch.
His tone is like he’s having to explain something to a 4 year old. I doubt he could be any more irritating
Just reading Andrew Rawnsley in the Observer. He thinks Rishi is in for a fun week, with a completely unrepentant Mad Lizzie wandering around telling everyone who’ll listen that she was right all along, and Cruella, Badanoch and any other wannabe successors openly setting their stalls out. The only thing that unites them is the belief that he’s a dead man walking and the next election is already lost. All while he just blurts out random, increasingly mental policies and dodges questions about HS2
It might actually be fun to watch if the implications weren’t so serious. A government imploding in real time
The Tories meet in Manchester plagued by their delusions, desperation and divisions
He is still managing to dig himself deeper every day.
If he says "spades in the ground" again I'll scream.
I won't be voting Labour. I cannot vote for a pro privitisation, brexiteer anti democratic party full of corrupt chancers and I see no significant differences between them and the tories. Two cheeks of the same arse.
I and most of my friends were lifelong labour voters but the labour party has left us by taking the stances it is. I know no one in Scotland who will vote labour even tho most of them used to do so
I'll be looking at the polls and candidates in my constituency before deciding but neither labour nor tory will get my vote ( well if it looks like being a labour / tory marginal I might have to but that is hardly likely)
Indeed, many lifelong Tories I know now find it hard to disagree that the country is in a considerably worse state than it was when their party returned to power 13 years ago.
My dad is genuinely struggling with this dilemma - seen Brexit fail, seen the country trashed, sees through the whole "but Covid/but Ukraine" excuses, but he can't see Labour offering a better alternative.
I'll settle for "less bad". If i was in Scotland i may have better options.
Those of us in England really have no choice who to vote for in a GE - it's Tory or Labour - or sit at home swearing at the live election results.
You might have a Green or Lib Dem option in some constituencies, but they are few and far between.
If you're around in Manchester, it's definitely worth checking them out milling around the Midland. Conference is attended by people the like of which you'd never see in normal life and very few women or non-whites.
You’ve actually seen them? I’ve not been into town but it’s usually like the Green Zone in Iraq when they’re here.
I do wonder why they bother coming up here when they’re universally despised and have to exist behind some Ring of Steel military cordon
If you’re around in Manchester, it’s definitely worth checking them out milling around the Midland. Conference is attended by people the like of which you’d never see in normal life and very few women or non-whites.
Is there a McDonalds nearby in case I fancy a milkshake at exactly that moment?
Looks like the Monty Python references are spreading to the Tories now. Thanks Binners!
https://twitter.com/edwinhayward/status/1708267260211585469
I do love a bit of infighting at the Tory Conference though.
Is there a McDonalds nearby in case I fancy a milkshake at exactly that moment?
How are your arms? You're going to need some range to get it over the barriers, and cyclists aren't always well-endowed in the shoulder area. To answer your question, probably Piccadilly Gardens is your closest, unless there's one down towards the Uni these days.
I am always puzzled by the tories having their conference in Manchester given the reception they get. I know it will be partly to say they care about the north of England but surely the reception they get from the locals must outweigh that? Why not Harrogate or York or somewhere where they might get a better reception?
Sacha Lord has done this for the duration of conference. I’ve just watched it and as one of the 3.8 million affected, watching it has just made me really really angry!
https://twitter.com/sacha_lord/status/1708407244797206598?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ
Wow! Was that just for you Binners?
( and the roughly 3799999 others effected, including many of my friends )
I remember the day they told us there would be no help for freelancers, despite our industry having completely stopped and us all having paid the same taxes as everybody else. He hung us out to dry for purely political reasons
I went out and walked and walked all day across the moors and was just in total despair as to how the * we were going to cope. I was just having repeated totally debilitating panic attacks. I just didn’t know what to do. To this day, I still never leave the house without my Propanalol in my bag. That’s his legacy
We got through it but it was *ing hard and we knew that Sunak just didn’t care. People committed suicide. He still doesn’t care! I ****ing loath him!
A friend of mine now has zero pension as he approaches retirement. Had to cash it in to keep a roof over the head of his family. Now on a new career path... one he hopes he can stick with long after retirement age.
You’d have to wonder at what point the parliamentary Conservative Party think ‘you know what, let’s just get this over with’ and call for/support a VONC.
It’s clearly not in the national interest for an increasingly weaker Sunak to limp on for potentially another 18 months.
Tories do not care one jot. all they care about now is maximising the money they make before losing the election. they do not care about the country at all. their only purpose is to keep power and wealth in the hands of the powerful and wealthy hence this scorched earth policy
If we want the Conservatives out of power, then, in the current system, we have to vote for the party/candidate that is best able to get them out of power.
Simple as.
You’d have to wonder at what point the parliamentary Conservative Party think ‘you know what, let’s just get this over with’ and call for/support a VONC.
Not a chance. They'll cling on to the bitter end. As they're showing at the moment, they can still do a lot of damage. I can genuinely see them doing some proper insane shit like actually pulling us out of the UCHR then just veering off to the real far right, economically and culturally
People keep talking about may for the election. I think they will hang on right to the end.
I agree with you TJ. In May people will have had just got through a winter of astronomical fuel bills and will be even poorer due to rampant inflation. They're going to cling on til the bitter end in the vain hope that some miracle happens, doing increasingly mad and extreme things out of pure desperation.
God help us all!
In the meantime, I see Govey is starting his latest leadership bid (how many is this now?) by openly wooing the right wing, tax-cutting brigade
Is there ANY way the country can force a GE? Like circumstances of national interest or something. I just can’t believe a rogue govt can be allowed to do this to its citizens.
It’s clear the plan from the headbangers in charge is to completely destroy the party, so that it gets obliterated in the next election.
This way they have the excuse to split/rebuild into a proper fascist party whilst in opposition ready to sweep to power with no pesky resistance from within.
We ain’t seen nothing yet.
You’re going to need some range to get it over the barriers,
Ah, so restrictions on driving down certain roads can still apply when it's their own safety at stake? I guess in the particular instance, the road closures aren't "woke" or "disproportionate"?
One assumes of course that the residents were consulted on all this and unilaterally approved?
Nice to know.
The man is either financially illiterate or a complete liar, possibily both. Reducing the rate at prices are going up is not the same as reducing taxes. Im so tired of the reducing inflation equates to reducing the cost of living, the rise in the cost of livingdue to Brexit, mad Lizzie, Covid etc. is now baked in, we need deflation, big tax cuts or significant wage rises to get us back to where we were 3 years ago, none of which will happen. I think hes just trying to minimise the Tory losses at the next GE which is why hes doubling down on the gammon policies, he knows he cant win but needs to hold onto as many core votes as he can. Its quite something when a party is in the state they are, and its all their own fault.
We ain’t seen nothing yet.
I think that’s exactly right. The whole party is in hock to increasingly extreme elements. Swivel eyed loons and Ayn Rand worshipping Tufton Street nutters.
The conclusion they’ll draw when they lose the election is that they weren’t right wing enough. They’ll install a full on headbanger like Braverman or Badanoch and they’ll veer off down a far right wormhole into the lunacy of nutjob conspiracy theories and paranoid, ‘anti-woke’tinfoil-helmet nationalism
They’re two thirds of the way they’re already
I wonder if Johnson gives a flying **** about the monster he’s created with his nationalist populism?
Of course he doesn’t. It’s served it’s purpose for him. He’s wandered off to his country like leaving chaos in his wake, as ever
Is there ANY way the country can force a GE?
It would require mass protests on the streets. My only concern with this is that some bellends would hijack it leading to violence, which gives the government control of the narrative.
Mass protests will do nothing. there is no way to force and election unless a significant amount of tory MPs vote for it
When did you see a mass protest do any good?
stumpy - sunak is relying on the economic and financial ignorance/illiteracy of most of the voting population to slide his sophistry past them.
What has his government, specifically, done to reduce the rate of inflation? sunak and hunt are claiming credit where none is due.
When sunak said 'I won't comment on speculation' in response to Kuenssberg's question about HS2 going to Manchester, why didn't she say...you're the PM and decide policy; I'm asking you to answer a direct question, not respond to speculation.
sunak knows he leads a failed administration but is trying to keep it going through increasingly toxic policy statements all intended to appeal to a combination of vested interests and increasingly small groups.
That 'nice mr sunak' is pure poison.
winston - the general population cannot do anything to force a GE; the legislature, aka house of commons, can table a vote of no confidence but the tories have a sizeable absolute majority so the vote would fail.
It is not parliamentary convention for there to be succcessive votes of no confidence tabled by the same party but, as an open question, could opposition parties table votes in succession until they've all had a go?
So...labour first followed in no particular sequence by LibDems, SNP, Plaid. DUP are in tories' pocket so they wouldn't participate.
Organising mass protests in the streets is fairly extreme tactic, it is obviously unlikely to attract people who would be satisfied with just tutting loudly their disapproval whilst holding placards saying "down with that sort of thing".
IMO the best mass street protests can reasonably achieve is not a change of government but perhaps a change of policy, although less so if they are peaceful.
Margaret Thatcher's callous arrogance was eventually defeated through mass protests, but that did include some rioting. Tony Blair's callous arrogance however was not defeated when approximately a million took part in completely peaceful street protests.
IMO the only way to force an unwilling government to call an early general election is by bringing the country to a complete standstill, they cannot after all govern a nonfunctioning country/economy.
However today's trade unions are simply not militant enough to call a general strike which under current legislation would be illegal. As it is trade unions these days won't use their existing legal powers to take indefinite strike action, preferring instead to declare relatively much less effective one day strikes, because they want to minimise the disruption caused to everyone.
No one will force the Tories to call an early general election, but if opposition parties are united in their repeated demands that the people should be allowed to decide now, the longer the Tories leave it the more damage it will do to them in terms of creditability and the electorate's declining patience and growing frustration.
It pains me to admit it, but the subhead on The Sun's coverage of the Tory party internal disputes is very good today: When Blue Tribes Go To War...
(FTR, I didn't buy The Sun - someone left it in a cafe).
they cannot after all govern a nonfunctioning country/economy.
They seem to be attempting to try...
Delusion writ large by cleverley in his conference speech '...blah blah blah,the UK has thrived'.
What's he on?
They seem to be attempting to try…
You think that the country has come to a standstill?
LONDON — The U.K.'s economic performance since the start of the Covid-19 pandemic has surpassed that of France and Germany, according to new data revisions published on Friday.
What that is missing is the huge slump prior to that caused by brexit - which means recovery from a much worse position . But once more you will deny brexit caused any issues.
cherry picking data points to get the result you want to see.
cue Ernie frantically trying to find some data to show Brexcit is a huge success 🙂
FFS we are back to brexit!!! 😆
The latest figures suggests that the UK economy has not come "to a complete standstill".
I am sure that you are deeply disappointed by that straightforward fact TJ, and that the German economy is currently preforming worse, but that's how it is right now.
The best that you can do is to hope and pray that the UK will go into recession, then you can celebrate. Until then that isn't the case, sadly.
Yes because brexit is key to all this no matter how much you want to pretend it is not Even the areticle you link to makes the point that actually the economy is flatlining still and still not back to where we were pre brexit
"Unfortunately this snapshot of economic data is not significant enough to change the overall picture of a flatlining economy," said PwC economist Jake Finney.
Richard Carter, head of fixed interest research at Quilter Cheviot, said Friday's data offers some hope that the U.K. may avoid recession, while signs are emerging that the country's cost-of-living crisis may be easing for households.
"While expenses are still elevated compared to pre-pandemic periods, disposable incomes are beginning to move ahead, bringing relief to many households who will have struggled over the winter months and where excess savings from the pandemic have dried up," he said in an email Friday.
"However, given the speed of interest rate rises and the cumulative effect of the cost of living crisis, it may just be a case of the pain being delayed, with 2024 looking more challenging."
(FTR, I didn’t buy The Sun – someone left it in a cafe).
How unhygienic.
I didn't make any comment about the UK economy being particularly healthy. I said that it isn't at a complete standstill. As would happen if there was a general strike. The point being that it is not "ungovernable".
If you think it is what does it make Germany?
And FFS try to post an answer without talking about brexit. What is being discussed right now is how the current government could be forced to call an early general election.
YOu made an economic point using carefully cherry picked data points to produce a false picture and the article you linked to shows that the conclusions you drew was false
“Unfortunately this snapshot of economic data is not significant enough to change the overall picture of a flatlining economy,” said PwC economist Jake Finney.
From the article you linked to
Brexit is so key and so fundamental to the UKs economic situation that to exclude it from discussions on the economy leads you to false positions.
tj - thanks for posting some essential additional context.
Whether or not anyone likes it, brexit has influenced and infected so many different aspects of the UK.
Attempting to compare the UK's economic performance relative to other European countries without taking into account the effect of brexit is both simplistic and wrong.
I haven't used any data at all, let alone "cherry picked". you are fantasizing mate.
Same goes for 'false conclusions'. I have concluded that the UK economy hasn't come to a complete standstill, are you claiming this is false?
All I did was link to a CNBC article, which for some reason has set you off.
I appreciate that you are devastated that the UK is currently preforming better than Germany but you really need to calm down.
And back to the point of if there will be an early general election, it doesn't look like it, well certainly not more than a few months early:
"Coinciding with that, the financial assessments are that the picture will be better in autumn 2024 on a worldwide basis. If America reduces interest rates, it's likely Europe and Britain will follow, so an autumn 2024 election is economically more attractive."
At the end of the day the state of the economy will be the most likely deciding factor.
I have concluded that the UK economy hasn’t come to a complete standstill, are you claiming this is false?
According to two quotes from withing that article yes - and its the authors of that article that did the cherrypicking of data points
Nor is the UK outperforming Germany unless you pick your data points carefully as those authors did.
How unhygienic.
It's okay, I wasn't using it as a plate...
Not advised to use it as toilet paper either. Although understandable why some people might consider it.
I have no idea why you think that CNBC is cherry picking data.
Nor is the UK outperforming Germany unless you pick your data points carefully as those authors did.
Would it help if I link to a Guardian article?
Here's some more "cherry picking" for you:
In downbeat forecasts for the world economy, the Paris-based organisation said Europe’s largest economy was likely to be the only G20 country apart from Argentina to shrink this year during a wider international slowdown.
So just Germany and Argentina then.
and they're off again.....
A really valid data set would be quarterly GDP performance from Q1 2016 to Q2 2023 by country covering UK, Germany, France, US, Japan, Australia.
Could also include Argentina if ernie wishes.
I'm not offering to research and produce it but the validity of this data set would come from it starting pre-brexit and then covering the brexit aftermath, comparative effects of covid and a move back towards normality.
This, I believe, would clearly show the UK's dismal economic performance.
The older I get the more I realise that you're all fools.
Could also include Argentina if ernie wishes.
Surely if the OECD wishes?
I don't decide what parameters the OECD uses.
You introduced Argentina.
Information on it's economic performance will have been collected and reported on by the OECD.
molgrips - I may have missed the welsh humour in your recent post but...what?
In response to a point that I didn’t make.
Yeah you did:
they cannot after all govern a nonfunctioning country/economy.
They seem to be attempting to try…
You were clearly suggesting that the Tories were attempting to govern a nonfunctioning country/economy.
I appreciate that it was simply hyperbole and not supposed to be taken seriously but it appeared designed to undermine a perfectly valid point which I was making.
IE massive industrial action would put huge pressure on the government to call an early general election. We have been there before where a Tory government has called an early general election because the country was coming to a standstill due to industrial action.
The current level of industrial action which is limited to one day strikes isn't putting any pressure on the government as all it is causing is inconvenience rather bringing the country to a standstill.
No government anywhere in the world can govern if the people refuse to work.
. We have been there before where a Tory government has called an early general election because the country was coming to a standstill due to industrial action.
When was that? General strike between the wars?
When Ted Heath called an early general election asking the question "who governs the country, the government or the trade unions?"
The reply he got was "not you".
Edit: There really is only two ways to replace a government (other than a coup) through the normal election cycle or through industrial action.
Due to the UK's current lack of militancy we will have to wait until Rishi Sunak decides.
There will not be mass industrial action - leaving aside any legal considerations, not enough employees are sufficiently bothered by any aspect of politics to strike in an attempt to force a GE.
It's not worth considering - outside of activist circles or academic discussions - as it just won't happen in the UK.
The level of political engagement and involvement in the UK mean it's a non-argument so...back to that 'nice Mr sunak'.
When Ted Heath called an early general election asking the question “who governs the country, the government or the trade unions?”
The reply he got was “not you”.
Jeez.
Is that the best you can offer - 50+ years ago and the union/employment 'landscape' has changed beyond all recognition since then.
Interesting to note that Baidu, the Chinese AI company, has recently launched it's ERNIE chatbot...
I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware we weren’t supposed to do that on this forum.
I don't have a problem with you challenging what I post. But I'm not entirely sure why you appear to suggest that you hadn't.
Jeez.
Is that the best you can offer – 50+ years ago and the union/employment ‘landscape’ has changed beyond all recognition since then.
Yes that is all I have got. I didn't claim that governments are regularly brought down by industrial action. It is of course extremely rare. I said that it was possible.
And I made it abundantly clear that the situation vis-a-vis trade unions and industrial action is now massively different to what it was decades ago. How did you manage to miss that? Read what I posted.