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Personally I attach considerably less credibility to the Tory-New Labour economic consensus, and their false claims that there is no other way.
Enjoying rone’s posts is one thing; attaching economic credibility to them is very different.
Indeed, but that's not what you were complaining about.
Rones view is a theory that is not widely believed. Ask 3 economists the same question get 3 different answers
I know this is truely ironic but the continual posting of this same unproven theory over and over again gets wearisome and I now simply ignore all rones posts - which is a shame as there maybe something new in them of interest
Rones view is a theory that is not widely believed.
I am not sure that is true. The Magic Money Tree was certainly "widely believed" to be the best approach when dealing with the banking crisis or the covid pandemic.
What happened during both could also be seen as fitting with classic Keynes from my (limited) understanding
Yes. Build up a deficit during difficult times. How does that conflict with rone's comments on here?
What it does conflict with though is Sunak's and Starmer's claims of the need for balanced budgets.
Rone tells it how it is. Tories and New Labour pretend that the Magic Money Tree which they always rely on doesn't exist.
Rones view is a theory that is not widely believed.
You mean how the Tories managed to pull the wool over people's eyes daily for just about everything? Thatcher started these lies. We all believe a nasty dead Tory about public finances now?
MMT is the only economic theory or economics description that starts from the position of how does government spending work.
All the others seek to circumvent that position by fabricating the idea money is scarce and the private sector creates it.
It's not my theory either - it's backed by many professors and economists. It has a hard time because right-wingers mostly control the narrative and like Brexit and like lots of other things they want you to have less.
The body of information for it is actually extensive whereas other perspectives such as monetarism are generally not backed up with anything other than journos, MPs and economists that should know better repeating a bunch of rubbish about government spending.
I mean where do people think money comes from? A private company cannot create money - you would be locked up quicker than you can say Truss.
Look around at the state of everything and ask yourself why is it falling apart? Because society requires large deficits (i.e new money creation to work.) Because currently existing money is getting removed into wealthy pockets.
I'm entirely frustrated at the idea everyone on here wants better but quickly aligns themselves to the Sunak and Starmer position which is total bullshit.
You're never getting better things without the idea that the UK needs massive spending which will naturally enlarge the nationalal debt which you will never ever payback because it's simply a record of all government spending that may never get taxed back. That's how it works.
Every bit of MMT is provable - there is nothing mystical about it; it explained the COVID package, it explains why the inflation we had took hold and was not controlled by interest rates - it also explains why the USA is doing so well by running a large deficit now.
It's just painful to hear people say stuff about Weimar (not even the same ballpark) and pass it of as evidence whilst at the same time shooting themselves in the foot for future government spending plans.
We all hated George Osborne's position right - widely proved to be a disaster so why can't you begin to agree that Reeves and Starmer taking his position must also not be a good idea?
You don't need to be an MMT advocate to make that point. So justifying lack of spending via poorly qualified Truss arguments does no one any favours.
"Every bit of MMT is provable"
No it really is not. Its a theory. Same as other economic theories
it also explains why the USA is doing so well by running a large deficit now
The UK is not the USA, and sterling is not the dollar.
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/mmt/
MMT is important in understanding how a state’s economy works. But no state can, or should, stand alone.
Did he get it for doing his own research 🙂
Ha ha.
Well my research extends further than the Guardian columns that's for sure.I
(I did a University course actually.)
Always the same people that can't construct and actual argument other than stuff like this.
Sigh.
You will eventually have to agree with my position or a) society gets much worse or b) Starmer or Labour turns on the spending taps.
You can have either.
Every bit of MMT is provable”
No it really is not. Its a theory. Same as other economic theories.
No it's not - it starts from the position of describing spending as it currently happens.
Stop being ridiculous.
No other economic theory does that.
Tell me one?
The UK is not the USA, and sterling is not the dollar.
Which explains why different economic theories apply in the United States! 😂
Thatcher and Reagan never told us that!
The UK is not the USA, and sterling is not the dollar.
Really you almost had me there.
But we follow the same spending mechanism as the USA. And although we're not comparable countries in lots of ways - debt, deficit and government spending aligns closely. You know this Kelvin.
MMT describes any country that issues its own currency with a central bank.
Of course there are key differences but the USA's growth is in part due to Stephanie Kelton being on the '21 economics panel for Biden and creating much of the stimulus packages.
Correct Spending stimulus = growth.
MMT [proposes a theory that ] describes any country that issues its own currency with a central bank.
I think it's pretty aligned with mainstream economics. The only place I see it diverging is its relationship with interest rates as a policy device rather than funding Economic theory might describe something in principle, but it will fail time and again when it meets real life, and there are other ways (that don't involve raising taxes) to fund policy choices.
It is dull though if you keep bashing folks on the head with it, and I swear yo must be being paid by Richard Murphy to post his tweets on this site, its the only explanation that makes sense.
Personally I attach considerably less credibility to the Tory-New Labour economic consensus, and their false claims that there is no other way.
I'm not seeing anyone has said there is no other way.
People are pointing out issues with rones statement, from what little I understand mainly that a sovereign bank/country does not exist in isolation. I think people's bigger issue is the tone in which he responds to those challenges, which sparks the usual STW trench warfare trying to defend a black or white position by refusing to consider the possibility that the solution may lie in the various shades of grey in between.
Anyway, if we want a "rone!" thread we can go and start one, otherwise let's crack on bashing Rishi, which is much more fun.
It is dull though if you keep bashing folks on the head with it
Well you have explained it yourself why rone keeps doing that:
"I think it’s pretty aligned with mainstream economics".
And yet earlier:
"Rones view is a theory that is not widely believed".
What I find rather dull about this thread is how much endless talk there is claiming how awful the Tories are and almost never moving beyond that.
I guess that we all have our own personal preferences.
I’m not seeing anyone has said there is no other way.
The general consensus that the alternative is Rachel Reeves does precisely that.
let’s crack on bashing Rishi, which is much more fun.
As I said we all have own personal preferences - not imo. But it is obviously considerably easier than providing a credible alternative.
What I find rather dull about this thread is how much endless talk there is claiming how awful the Tories are and almost never moving beyond that.
I find your defense of the tories more than dull
Have you really not seen and understood the deliberate harm they do?
I find your defense of the tories more than dull
LOL! Is that what I do by not ranting daily how much I despise all Tories?!?😂
It really is getting forever harder to have an intelligent discussion on STW political threads.
They appear to be nothing more than daily reaffirmation exercises for those who feel insecure about their own personal beliefs.
Of course there are key differences but the USA’s growth is in part due to Stephanie Kelton being on the ’21 economics panel for Biden and creating much of the stimulus packages
Some economists are warning of a new US banking crisis. Alternate application of QE and QT (tightening) and the ending of the Bank Term Funding Program (BTFP) a year after it was started in response to problems at the Silicon Valley Bank, amongst others, will lead to an interesting ride for everyone https://theconversation.com/why-economists-are-warning-of-another-us-banking-crisis-224092
What I find rather dull about this thread is how much endless talk there is claiming how awful the Tories are and almost never moving beyond that.
Says the man who monopolizes an entire thread to talk about how awful Starmer is and never moves beyond that. Pot... Kettle...something something
The big problem with classic economists is that no 2 agree on anything, collectively they manage to predict the next great recession every hour of every day. Inevitably in amongst all of the guff, something eventually proves correct.
Part of my research looks Degrowth economics, and find the MMT stuff really interesting. It does get a bit incessant in here, but no more so that the usual bunch of know it alls repeating their own point ad infinitum.
Well this thread has gone down a similar path.......
Alternate application of QE and QT (tightening) and the ending of the Bank Term Funding Program (BTFP) a year after it was started in response to problems at the Silicon Valley Bank
BTFP is being ended partly because banks were taking the piss and arbitraging it for profit.
What I find rather dull about this thread is how much endless talk there is claiming how awful the Tories are and almost never moving beyond that.
Maybe you should check the thread title as a rough guide to the subject matter?
Anyway Ernesto, can you please loosen your vice like grip on the capital city as Jimmy Dimly has claimed that policing your rule is getting a bit pricey?
Says the man who monopolizes an entire thread to talk about how awful Starmer is and never moves beyond that.
Only in your imaginary world mate. If Starmer is wrong on policy, or lack of policy, I will, like anyone else, express an opinion.
I certainly don't get into endless daily rants about how much I hate him and every Labour politician.
Maybe you should check the thread title as a rough guide to the subject matter?
Yeah it's about Rishi Sunak, having established that he, and all Tories politicians, are beastly, can we not move beyond that?
Yeah it’s about Rishi Sunak, having established that he, and all Tories politicians, are beastly, can we not move beyond that?
I struggle to think of anything positive to say about Sunak, and the current administration of which he is head.
But if you know of something, please do feel free to share it for discussion rather than whining about what others opinions are?
Scary stuff.
The vast majority haven’t met a Muslim, they've been brainwashed.
Scary stuff.
The only threat to to the "British way of life" is the ****ing tory party and their think tanks
The vast majority haven’t met a Muslim, they’ve been brainwashed.
Even when they have, they dismiss the Muslim they meet as an outlier, and that he or she is unlike the ones they know are out there in those no-go areas they would be too afraid to ever go to.
As a German GP friend said when quoting some of his rural Cambridgeshire patients in 2016, “oh I don’t mean nice people like you, doctor; I mean the other kind of immigrants.”
What is the British way of life and in what way are Muslims threatening it exactly?
I struggle to think of anything positive to say about Sunak, and the current administration of which he is head.
But if you know of something, please do feel free to share it for discussion rather than whining about what others opinions are?
LOL! @ "whining"! 😂
This thread is one big mega-whine!
A load of very angry middle-class middle-aged men who need to rant everyday about how much they truly hate Tories. It's almost as they feel that if they didn't that they might be mistaken for Tories.
A few seem to be in open rebellion against their Tory parents. I'm not sure what Freud would have to say about that.
No I can't think of anything positive to say about the current administration. But I realised when I was about 15 that I was unimpressed by Conservatives. HTH
What is the British way of life and in what way are Muslims threatening it exactly?
Excuse the language in these timeless lyrics.
"Today, institutions fundamental to the British system of Government are under attack
the public schools, the house of Lords, the Church of England, the holy institution of Marriage, even our magnificent police force are no longer safe from those who would undermine our society, and it's about time we said 'enough is enough' and saw a return to the traditional British values of discipline, obedience, morality and freedom.
What we want is
Freedom from the reds and the blacks and the criminals
Prostitutes, pansies and punks
Football hooligans, juvenile delinquents
Lesbians and left wing scum
Freedom from the ****s and the ****s and the unions
Freedom from the Gipsies and the Jews
Freedom from leftwing layabouts and liberals
Freedom from the likes of you"
This thread is one big mega-whine!
Yet here you are, whining about people whining!?
What is the British way of life and in what way are Muslims threatening it exactly?
In my line of work I meet and work with many muslims, and indians of various persuasion...
My experience is broadly in line with any other demographic, really, most are really nice people just going about thier lives like any other group of people.
And just like any other group of people, a small minority are 'grade A tossers'...who would have thunk it?
One thing that really opened my eyes was trying to organise an informal office meal out... let's book a big table at a curry house, we think, everone likes a curry, right?
Wrong!
Without thinking it turned out the curry house we selected was more ****stani than Indian, which resulted in in a boycott of the meal by aproximatley 50% of the 'asian' employees.
It didn't click until someone quitely pointed out to me that ****stanis and Indians don't have much love for each other, which made sense after it was pointed out.
Lesson? prejudice exits at all levels and in all walks of life.
Even I as a 'white' person get slightly annoyed and I don't like watching the rugby in the pub any more with my english friends.
As a Welshman, and If i wear a red shirt, it gets really old really quickly, and really irritating having to put up with being accused of having sex with sheep to a chorus of 'baaah baaaah' every 5 mins.
I can take it in good humour to a certain extent, but after a point it just becomes offensive and annoying when it's relentless.
Of course that kind of racism is nothing compared to what some people are subjected to, but that's not my point, my point is racism and prejudice permiates through all of society in one way or another and a lot of time people just play along with it instead of calling it out.
A load of very angry middle-class middle-aged men who need to rant everyday
Has it taken you this long to land on that piece of searing insightfulness? That'll also be why you're here everyday on the political threads whining about Starmer, or whining about other people whining about the Tories, that makes you just like everyone else.
Oh the ironing from ernie
Pisstake or lack of self-awareness?
I'm a middle aged, middle class, grauniad reader, and I hate Rishi and this current iteration of the Tories. It's cathartic to read other people whining about them everyday because otherwise I'd despair about us having to wait for the election
Let's get rid of these bastards and at least give Starmer and co a chance to fail before writing them off
It’s the Rochdale by-election tomorrow which is an absolute shitshow for everyone involved. A total circus, the result of which is absolutely meaningless
It’s just been pointed out on the north west news that when the date of the by-election was announced the Tory candidate already had a holiday booked and he didn’t even bother cancelling it to do any campaigning as there didn’t seem much point 😂
Given the business with Lee Anderson and Braverman over the last week, I bet he’s relieved to be sat on a beach, having dodged a bullet there. Loss of deposit incoming.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/grant-shapps-using-raf-choppers-32227059
Oh look, Grant Shapps has obviously been taking travel advice from Rishi Sunak.
Entitled ****s, the lot of them.
Has it taken you this long to land on that piece of searing insightfulness?
No, it took this morning's whining about rone who, god forbid, actually introduced a bit of politics* into this thread and talked about economic alternatives, for me to comment that I would rather his contributions than the usual "we hate all Tories because they are so beastly" nonsense.
*At least he tried to but the usual suspects got upset because apparently that's not what this thread is about.
It’s cathartic to read other people whining about them everyday
I bet it is! Which was precisely my point - whining daily about how awful the Tories are obviously satisfies an important need in some people 😃
Edit: Btw spawnofyorkshire, what about STWers who vote Tory - are they expected not to post on threads about the Tory leader? Or indeed any political thread?
How does that fit in with your middle-class Guardian-reading tendencies?
whining daily about how awful the Tories are obviously satisfies an important need in some people
I think we can all agree we need a general election sooner rather than later.
But Sunak, for understandable reasons, will leave that until 2 minutes to midnight.
In the meantime, we will have to put up with a steady flow of Tory MPs bi-elections and lost seats for various reasons.
Also in the meantime we have the council elections, I predict a devestating loss of tory councilors across the country.
I don't know how I will vote in a GE yet, but it certainly won't be conservative, it will be lib-dem, green, or labour as a last resort.
In the locals, I'll blindly hold my nose and vote labour in May. My minds pretty much made up.
Btw spawnofyorkshire, what about STWers who vote Tory – are they expected not to post on threads about the Tory leader? Or indeed any political thread?
Of course they can - but they will have to defend their support of the disgusting deliberate cruelty of the tories which is more than a little impossible
Bit late after a day of no phone, going back to the threat to the British Way of Life- didn’t it end with the Roman,Viking, Angle, Saxon & Jute invasions?
Can’t beat reminding gammons that the English are immigrants and their culture is littered with adoptions from others -
Their Patron Saint Romano/Turk/Armenian
Their flag - leased from Genoa
Their football teams emblem - borrowed from Angevin nobility
.