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very odd and low impact change hill to die on?
Very expensive and very low impact, even if you take the moral/humanitarian aspect out of it, and look at it purely as a business decision, there is no metric I can think of that makes it look anything other than completely stupid and a total waste of money.
Very expensive
Good point. Chatting to a friend and former colleague who now works for border force, he has been very candid about the good that money could do if invested in the existing agencies that manage immigration. I'd expect more from technocrats, but seems they can't technocrat very well, the mind boggles.
I heard on the News Agents podcast that the ‘Rwanda Plan’ involves sending tops 200 individuals a year.
Thats the current max Rwanda says they can take. I am sure if we bung them another 300 million or so we might get it up to 500.
However will need to subtract the at risk refugees sent the other way.
Morality & legality of it aside it seems a very odd and low impact change hill to die on?
It does seem to be a distraction tactic which has got out of hand. Was handy for Johnson since could be used to explain the total failure of their strategy by blaming the courts etc for blocking this tactic.
Now though the "five families" seem to have brought into the deception fully and so if he doesnt go for it they will launch their palace coup.
I'll laugh long and heartily if this is the hill that Rishi chooses to die on. Surely even the most ardent anti immigration supporter would agree that the Rwanda plan is complete nonsense.
I don't see how it could even work as a deterrent.
People Smuggler: Hey, I can get you to the UK for only $5000
Desperate Refugee: I've heard that they don't let you in and send you to Rwanda?
PS: Oh no, that's only for some people, doesn't affect you in your situation.
DR: Really?
PS: Yes, really. This way to the boat..
I mean, people smugglers aren't exactly the most conscientious of people are they?
Well, thank goodness the referendum finally stopped the squabbling within the Tory party and they are finally united and able to move on.
Oh.
The drama carries on into next year!
Bugger
he has been very candid about the good that money could do if invested in the existing agencies that manage immigration.
Well, exactly... if we want to protect our borders, surely the border force would be a good place to start, why are we paying 100's of millions to Rwanda, when we could employ more people in the UK to manage the situation in a faster and more fair way, and create some jobs at the same time?
molgrips
Free Member
I don’t see how it could even work as a deterrent
Yep, utter madness. For it to be a deterrent, Rwanda would have to be an awful prospect, worse than starving or dodging bullets in their own country.
Yet the government are saying Rwanda is amazeballs, so where is the deterrent?
It's all just expensive lunacy and all being done whilst the country burns.
Well, exactly… if we want to protect our borders, surely the border force would be a good place to start, why are we paying 100’s of millions to Rwanda, when we could employ more people in the UK to manage the situation in a faster and more fair way, and create some jobs at the same time?
Your guess is as good as mine, my mate is slightly befuddled by the whole debacle.
It is great example of the good ideas club running rampant, then arrogantly and bloody mindedly sticking to the plan.
Not really supprising I guess.
But just because a bunch of MP's say its safe, doesn't make it so, or even legal.
Next thing on the agenda will be - get rid of the jurisdiction of the ECHR, and the Human rights act, what could possibly go wrong?
The Tories are just disintegrating before our eyes.
There could genuinely be another Tory leader before the next GE. It's just incredible that this is even a prospect. Incredible.
The original sin, Brexit, will corrupt and pollute all that touch it. It was always going to tear the Tories and the country apart and it's not even close to being done with us yet.
And the Opposition is where...precisely??
And the Opposition is where…precisely??
And therein lies part of the problem. The Tories are in a position with the absence of any credible opposition where they could be shooting fish in a barrel, but it speaks to their incompetence they're ****ing that up.
There's a bitter irony with us criticising the US for the shiite candidates they have to choose from for president, when we don't seem to fare much better with our political parties.
Is there a party brakedown of votes available?
It would be interesting to see how many Labour MPs abstained or voted with the conservatives...
Rajiv Menon: "Was Lee Cain right when he said the gov's resistance in 2020 for free meals for children was a huge blunder? Was he right?"
Rishi Sunak: "I can't remember the decisions around that."
RM: "Are you saying it was somebody else who was opposed to funding this, rather than you, the Chancellor?"
RS: "I can't recall."
RM: "What was your view initially?"
RS: "I can't recall."
RM: "In June 2021, did you personally oppose free meals for children during the school holidays?"
RS: "I can't remember."
RM: "You told Hugo Keith that you didn't say: 'good working people pay for their children to eat and you don't want freeloaders.' Do you recall any meeting where anbody expressed the sentiment?"
RS: "No."
RM: "Can we agree, if anybody did, that that would be reprehensible thing to say?"
RS: "Support was in place to help the most vulnerable."
No Labour or any other party joined the tories in their hour of darkness, let's hope this gets sunk when it comes back.
Is there a party brakedown of votes available?
It would be interesting to see how many Labour MPs abstained or voted with the conservatives…
I managed to find this, which is to be expected I guess...
No Tory MPs vote against Rwanda Bill<br />There were, however, 38 Tories that are recorded not to have voted.
But what about Labour?
And the Opposition is where…precisely??
Starmer gave a speech this morning basically mocking them for indulging themselves in this ridiculous infightimg while the country burns and pointing out the fact that they've burned 300 million quid of taxpayers money for absolutely * all (I'm paraphrasing slightly). Yvette Cooper made mincemeat out of Cleverly as she has done with all of his predecessors (Cruella would do anything to avoid facing her over the despatch box, Patel just sat there with a face like a smacked arse as she was shredded by her)
It all got zero media coverage because the media are (understandably) focussed on the Tory party tearing itself apart instead.
But to quote Napoleon (again I'm paraphrasing) ... never interrupt your enemy while they're in the the process of a monumental * up
As an aside: the Tory right calling themselves 'The Five Families' to intone some form of New York Italian mafia menace and then they send forth as their spokesman .... Mark Francois
They really are utterly pathetic
But what about Labour?
Ah, it's ok.. I found this...
We really need a GE.. the conservatives are running roughshod, and this vote wil emboleden them even more... The are gonna put off a GE until the 11th hour, aren't they, gives them plenty of time to burn the house to the ground with the current majority.
The are gonna put off a GE until the 11th hour, aren’t they, gives them plenty of time to burn the house to the ground with the current majority.
Thankfully they're all far too buy scrapping with each other to actually do anything serious. Just look at them FFS! They're having a massive existential crisis over what? Sending a couple of hundred people to Africa? This will tie them up in knots until they're voted out. And this whole farce is entirely of their own making
I suppose we should all be thankful for that. Imagine the damage they'd do if they were focussed on doing what they usually do so well... ****ing us all over
In the meantime, we'll just shake our heads in bemusement as they carry on with this nonsense until they inevitably lose the next election
It was the guy who started Conservative Home who was on Five Live earlier saying that the longer this Rwanda nonsense goes on for, the more ridiculous they look, the more seats they lose.
Lets hope so
Is that from the Covid enquiry?
Sunak has a terrible memory it appears, he needs to see someone about that.
@binners Thanks bud; I took a deep breath and checked it out. Cooper was indeed surgical. But bloody hell, although Starmer had the content, his delivery is like, well, a cardboard box left out in the rain beside the bin.
Starmer had the content, his delivery is like, well, a cardboard box left out in the rain beside the bin.
His delivery is like a badly dubbed 70's martial arts movie.
Rajiv Menon KC is representing Childrens rights organisations
Cheers. Sunak couldn't give a crap about kids going hungry unless they were his kids.
His delivery is like a badly dubbed 70’s martial arts movie.
Whilst I agree, he does have to be carefull not to use the same inflammatory rhetoric that the conservatives do, as the second he does, he'll be pounced upon by the tories and the pro-tory press.
He could tow a better line with his language, and find a happy medium, but then he'd be labled centrist, or worse, a spinless & duplicitous fence sitter like Corbyn. He has to be very careful what he says, but he's in danger of falling faul to public perception...
But if he doesn't take some sort of firm line, he could equally fall foul to the wet cardboard analogy.
Regardless of what Starmer wants Starmers Labour to look like, he's just along for the ride at the moment.
Some dimwit Tory MP is being savaged by Victoria Derbyshire on Newsnight being faced with the obvious question
If tens of thousands of people are coming in small boats each year and even if you get this through, 100 of them will be sent to Rwanda, how is that a deterrent?
He didn’t have an answer
I was bemused to notice Andrew Rosindell mentioned as paired off for the Rwanda vote. It seems charitable of Labour to do this.
Some dimwit Tory MP is being savaged by Victoria Derbyshire on Newsnight being faced with the obvious question
If tens of thousands of people are coming in small boats each year and even if you get this through, 100 of them will be sent to Rwanda, how is that a deterrent?
He didn’t have an answer
I mean, I'm no master economist or mathematician, I wouldn't even call myself a statistician...
...But even I can see how bat-shit crazy all of this is.
1+boat=bananna
But what about Labour?
What about Labour - they're a party of right wingers. Only a few steps behind the Tories
Kendall and Streeting have been doing their level best to be keep that one going in the last few days.
https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1733787778549211449?t=BzUU9z69eo9u8dzq-sRyJg&s=19
https://twitter.com/JujuliaGrace/status/1733823757909733497?t=QwuTdgNWL1k28VLNE3cA7g&s=19
Streeting really is a pissant. Doing the job of Tories everywhere.
Regardless of what Starmer wants Starmers Labour to look like, he’s just along for the ride at the moment.
Which makes him culpable in the shift to the right. But we all know that - the evidence has been there for a while.
MrsMC was watching Good Morning Britain - Ed Balls was giving James Cleverly a roasting about courts not being able to make decisions based on facts. Cleverly must be the most wrongly named minister in history.
Facebook is now serving me (well only one so far to be fair) posts with pictures of Kigali, Rwanda, looking like an attractive tourist destination.
Coincidence? Or just the algorithm detecting that I've clicked on one two many Rwanda stories on the Guardian website?
But what about Labour?
Only Conservatives (and an independent) voted for the bill. Labour MPs voted against. Labour have made it clear that if they win the next election, the Rwanda scheme will end. Not that it’ll ever really start, it’s just millions of pounds being spend to look tough.
If tens of thousands of people are coming in small boats each year and even if you get this through, 100 of them will be sent to Rwanda, how is that a deterrent?
Exactly, if people are risking their lives to get to the UK the 1 in a 100 chance of getting set to Rwanda is hardly a deterrent and I would fancy these odds in any choice I was making/forced to make.
Facebook is now serving me (well only one so far to be fair) posts with pictures of Kigali, Rwanda, looking like an attractive tourist destination.
Sunak said it was. He even signed a bit of paper to say it was safe and welcoming and didn't have any issues with human rights abuses.
So it must be true.
The PM of the United Kingdom wouldn't lie to the people.
I mean, there was one of them who lied a bit - sometimes.
Oh, hang on a minute...
I got to about half way through that video ^^ before having to turn it off in anger.
Smarmy weaselly little shit.
Someone needs to ask him if there is there anything that he *can* recall?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67690287
Anyway, keep talking about Rwanda, nothing to see here, everything is fine in the UK... Look, immigrant!
"Haunt" him..? That would require him to actually have a conscience. Evidence suggests otherwise; he probably sees this as a success, for batting away all of the questions effectively. As he will define it..
The twitter/X compilation of sunak’s memory failures...
There's another one here:
https://twitter.com/nathan_oswin/status/1734189700813132273?t=lm5KhDyHx416zrwKjuUf1g&s=19