[Closed] Riding two abreast on a two-lane road: yay or nay? (video)

or certainly doesn't on road.

Junky - Fireroads are completely different I alway ride in the submisson position within a hairs breadth of collapse at the side of the trail.

Plus, and it's a big plus, I'm an STW officialated forum gobshite. I can spout my rubbish on here from morning to night and all the hours inbetween providing nobody cottons on to the fact that I should be banned.

TandemJeremy - Member
According to you I have to be so afraid of nutters that I have to compromise my safety. I will not be cowed into riding in an unsafe manner.

Erm...who said that?

trailmonkey

nowhere in cyclecraft does it recommend permenantly riding in the primary position which is what i've seen you say on this thread and what the guys in that vid where doing.

I have not said that - I have said I ride 1m from the kerb or more most of the time - thats about an arms length. People on here are advocating 50 cm or less from the kerb which is far too close. to teh kerb. If there is not room for 2 cars and a bike safely then you should be out holding your lane. Never leave the cars a gap to squeeze thru unless there is room for them to do so safely

Most of my riding is in busy urban traffic where I should be in the primary position - holding my lane.

Edit = On that vid there is not enough room for 2 cars and a bike safely so primary position it is to prevent the cars trying to make room fore two cars or are yo saying there is room for two cars and a bike safely?

The beauty of this thread is that you can tell who doesn't really ride a bike that often, or certainly doesn't on road.

Ok, which ones don't ride on the road that often? Name them one by one.

You must be like an uber-commuter or summink. All hail.

The point is, defensive/assertive riding is good.
Being a selfish in-the-right-no-matter-what-the-circumstances prick like the guy on the video is bad.

LOL at Feefoo... you don't think I actually read the thread before coming up with my assertion do you?

On my commute i keep about a metre ish from the kerb for the simple reason there are a lot of drains, look at the size of a drain cover, look at the slightly damaged tarmac that always seems to be around them.

Now imagine riding in a straight line avoiding the drains and you find you are about a metre from the kerb.

If you want to stay in the gutter going through the broken tarmac, glass, leaves, drains etc, now when you factor in the car straight lining next to you, that little bit of room gives you somewhere to go if you need to. Yes it is your right to ride in the gutter, but i would suggest your a fool.

TandemJeremy - Member

I have not said that - I have said I ride 1m from the kerb or more most of the time - thats about an arms length

i must have imagined this then.............

that road is not wide enough for two cars and a bike so a single bike should be in the middle of the lane anyway

here is not enough room for two cars and a bike there so the bike should be in the centre of the lane.

According to standard defensive riding techniques one should adopt the primary position - occupy your lane.

ok i'm bored already, i'm sure there are more.

FeeFoo has it right.............

The point is, defensive/assertive riding is good.
Being a selfish in-the-right-no-matter-what-the-circumstances prick like the guy on the video is bad.

Trailmonkey - that is not saying ride in the primary position all the time. that is saying [b]on that road ride[/b] in the primary position

Are you really saying the you think in that clip there is room for 2 cars and a bike and thus the bike should be at the edge of the road?

it's a clear road and they're not turning.

i can't see any reason why they need to be anywhere but in the secondary, an arms length from the curb.

the only reason they need to be two abreast is to have a chat.

So you think there is room for two cars and a bike safely across the width of that road?

i don't know what you're on about ?

the only reason for the cyclist not to be 1m from the curb is because he's about to turn, pass a junction, pass a parked car etc.

the width of the road, oncoming traffic or snow white and the seven dwarves have nothing to do with it.

i suggest you have another read of cyclecraft tj

heres a though, how many drivers NEED to drive to their destination. Maybe the drivers are the problem, the drivers are in the way, the drivers are after all the ones who kill thousands per year. drivers are the ones who kill cyclists, horses, pedestrians, let alone birds hedgehogs, badgers, foxes etc. Maybe drivers are the ones causing polution and leading to elevated asthma levels, noise pollution, etc etc etc.

Oh sorry i forgot, it is the right of every *** to behave in a manner that *s up others lives.

I'd like to see the guy who has one arm a meter long!

We are actually not far apart as we both think the 50 cm some were advocating too close.

The reasons I ask if you think there is enough room for 2 cars and a bike across the width of the road is simple. if there is not then the cyclist needs to make that clear by taking the lane to force cars to overtake properly.

So yes - the width of the road is crucial to your road positioning. I am surprised you don't know this if you claim to be an accredited instructor.

We are actually not far apart as we both think

Am I about to witness an agreement on STW?

I am surprised you don't know this if you claim to be an accredited instructor.

i wondered how long it would be before you either doubted my credentials or told me how to do my job 😆

The reasons I ask if you think there is enough room for 2 cars and a bike across the width of the road is simple. if there is not then the cyclist needs to make that clear by taking the lane to force cars to overtake properly.

is just nonsense.

take the secondary position, take the lane if you need to do something.

that's all there is to it.

Right - found the quote

John Franklin, Cyclecraft, The Stationery Office (2004).

In certain situations it may be safer to use all the space that your side of the road or lane allows, i.e. [b]take a position in the centre of the lane [/b]or your side of the road. [b]This may be necessary if there is not enough room for cars to overtake you[/b] without forcing you too close to parked cars [b]or the side of the road.[/b]

Direct quote from cyclecraft

so whether there is enough room in that situation for two cars and a bike is cruicil to your road positioning. I do not believe there is enough room for two cars and a bike so I would follow the cyclecraft guidance and take the centre of the inside lane

Trail Monkey
"is just nonsense.

take the secondary position, take the lane if you need to do something.

that's all there is to it."

+1.

though I agree a lot with what TJ is saying riders need to "own the road" more even more so when the rider can keeping with the traffic speed.

But then just refuse and argue that there isn't a secondary postion and no need to be it that postion is just been silly to put it nicely.

Yes I said .5 of a meter as min, it still fair enough out to avoid the crap at the side of the road and the draining covers etc.
And to me thats not in the gutter.

right, in certain circumstances. if there are parked cars around then you should take the lane in advance of pulling out ( an open doors width ) around the parked cars. as for the cars overtaking, it says this [b]may be[/b] neccesary and even then that means on narrower roads and lanes not on wide open highways ffs. seriously, how many roads do you know that have lanes wide enough for cars to safely pass a bike in the secondary without straddling the middle ? not very many, in which case are you going to ride around all day in the middle of the road ? 🙄

bikeability training is available for adults too tj. get some. it sounds like you need it.

So you do not agree with cyclecraft then trailmonkey? And yo claim to be an acceditied instructor.

Read it again

John Franklin, Cyclecraft, The Stationery Office (2004).

In certain situations it may be safer to use all the space that your side of the road or lane allows, i.e. [b]take a position in the centre of the lane [/b]or your side of the road. This may be necessary [b]if there is not enough room for cars to overtake you without forcing you too close[/b] to parked cars[b] or the side of the road[/b].

so exactly that situation.

Yes that is true TJ

BUT as I said BEFORE
"Because the primary riding postion can result in some [b][i]inconvenience[/b][/i] to following drivers, it is reasonable to ride further to the left when this could help others, so long as your own saety is not thereby impaired. At these times you should adapt the secondary riding position

This is also from the book Cycle craft by John Franklin.

and that is when trafic is traveling faster than the rider and no oncoming pack cars juntions etc.

you need to read futher along

so long as your own safety is not thereby impaired.

riding in the witin 50 cm of the curb impairs your safety. full stop. Its too close. riding within arms length of the kerb in that situation impairs your safety as there is not enough room for a car to pass safely

Love this. 7 odd pages that boil down to debating the virtues of being technically correct but maybe squished, vs possibly a bit too submissive on the road, but getting to ride another day.

Happens on a busy dual carriageway near me regularly; cyclists exercising their legal right to ride on a fast dual carriageway. One had to get scraped of off the front of a sleepy lorry driver's Scania the other day; I bet the fact that he was technically in the right was a real comfort to his bereaved family. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.

v8 - the road in question is 30 mph limit.

The reasons I ask if you think there is enough room for 2 cars and a bike across the width of the road is simple. if there is not then the cyclist needs to make that clear by taking the lane to force cars to overtake properly.

So yes - the width of the road is crucial to your road positioning. I am surprised you don't know this if you claim to be an accredited instructor.

212
When passing motorcyclists and cyclists, give them plenty of room (see Rules 162-167). If they look over their shoulder it could mean that they intend to pull out, turn right or change direction. Give them time and space to do so.

so however much of the lane you take up they should be in the other one
My main concern is the reduced visibility to a car behind who may or may not have seen you and then they may be too close to you and too crap to fit in the lane [ if there is infact enough room to overtake you - there is not as per the highway code pic. In essence do you want to force the [ potentially] irate, angry, crap driver person to overtake you in another lane or do you want to allow them to squeeze past with limited space and and the car behind the van who may not even have seen you yet etc.

TandemJeremy - Member
Right - found the quote

John Franklin, Cyclecraft, The Stationery Office (2004).

Is everything in print an AUTHORITY?

Ooh he's got killfile on 🙁 Easy to win arguments when you don't have to respond to half the opposing points eh? 🙄

So you do not agree with cyclecraft then trailmonkey?

yup, it makes sense to me. it's you that's talking nonsense not john franklin.

And yo claim to be an acceditied instructor.

yeah i'd have a word with those idiots at the ctc for passing me.

stay safe out there.

TandemJeremy - Member
v8 - the road in question is 30 mph limit.

Being hit by a Scania truck with a sleepy driver at 30mph probably hurts a bit though.

Can you read the quote trailmonkey?

trailmonkey

the only reason for the cyclist not to be 1m from the curb is because he's about to turn, pass a junction, pass a parked car etc.

the width of the road, oncoming traffic or snow white and the seven dwarves have nothing to do with it.

John Franklin, Cyclecraft, The Stationery Office (2004).

In certain situations it may be safer to use all the space that your side of the road or lane allows, i.e. take a position in the centre of the lane or your side of the road. [b]This may be necessary if there is not enough room for cars to overtake you without forcing you too close[/b] to parked cars or [b]the side of the road[/b].

So actually cyclecraft quite clearly contradicts you. If the road is not wide enough to allow a car to over take you safely then you take the line - simple, clear and concise

Fair enough not a direct comparison, but I don't think I'd like to be hit up the chuff by a Scania doing 30mph either. (or 25, or 35... 😉 )

(oh and by the way, it wasn't obvious why the lorry swerved, it was certainly for no reason that was within my vision. Cup of tea/crotch interface, maybe?)

Oh please, agree to differ before this makes 300!!

Ooh he's got killfile on Easy to win arguments when you don't have to respond to half the opposing points eh?

It's the debating equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "LaLaLaLaLa"

Weak.

that is true TJ "own saftety is not thereby impaired"
will all I got to say is you have a very high level/aweness of you own safety and low regard to other road users.
"riding in the witin 50 cm"

Never said WITIN, I said Minimum
which is more like 75cm in practice.

oh and by the way, it wasn't obvious why the lorry swerved, it was certainly for no reason that was within my vision. Cup of tea/crotch interface, maybe?

aye - you said that 🙂

I've jumped from page1 to page 7, can someone let me know if the intervening pages are just the same apart from tj arguing the same point with different people?

teamhurtmore - Member
Oh please, agree to differ before this makes 300!!

If we can get a racist slant in here somewhere it might just get closed...

I'm gonna have to jump in to defend TJ here. (god forgive me) Franklin deliberately calls it 'primary' to reinforce the idea that cyclists have a right to be there. This thread shows why he needed to do that. It isn't a position I normally ride in, but it is soemthing you are entitled to do. If the road is narrow enough to encouarge a dangerous overtake if you are in secondary, then primary is the place to be. TJ's case is perfectly sound and I suspect if anyone else was making it there wouldn't be such a reaction on here.
Having said that, with respect to the vid: Bbob had it right earlier when he pointed out that two abreast really does antagonize people & I wouldn't do it even if you occupy the same amount of road space. I also agree with v8ninety. Dual carriageways just aren't bike friendly. I may have a right to be there but anyone with any sense would avoid them, and if I have to go on them I make sure I go fast and spend as little timeon them as I can. Pootling two abreast on a dual shows a shocking lack of awareness of the hazards involved.

will all I got to say is you have a very high level/aweness of you own safety and low regard to other road users.

Woody - Member
I've jumped from page1 to page 7, can someone let me know if the intervening pages are just the same apart from tj arguing the same point with different people?

The force is with you young forum member...

TJ is correct.

Cu-chicken.

nealglover - Member

Ooh he's got killfile on Easy to win arguments when you don't have to respond to half the opposing points eh?

It's the debating equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing "LaLaLaLaLa"

Weak.

In certain situations it [u]may[/u] be safer to use all the space that your side of the road or lane allows, i.e. take a position in the centre of the lane or your side of the road. This [u]may[/u] be necessary if there is not enough room for cars to overtake you without forcing you too close to parked cars or the side of the road.

So it's not an absolute rule that must be adhered to at all times then, just something to consider?

Woody - Member

I've jumped from page1 to page 7, can someone let me know if the intervening pages are just the same apart from tj arguing the same point with different people?

its done to death for sure now.