[Closed] Riding two abreast on a two-lane road: yay or nay? (video)

TJ - has it occurred to you that the people posting that they are happy riding closer to the kerb than you (and Roadcraft, the IAM etc) are, may actually have been riding that way, and be comfortable with it, having done so for years without issue? Maybe, for them, they are right?

As for "bikes are traffic", here's a definition:

1. the movement of vehicle[u]s[/u], ship[u]s[/u], person[u]s[/u], etc., in an area, along a street, through an air lane, over a water route, etc.: the heavy traffic on Main Street.
2. the vehicle[u]s[/u], person[u]s[/u], etc., moving in an area, along a street, etc.

See the plurals there? In my view as a road user you have a duty not to impede other traffic (of course without compromising your own safety - there appears to be varying views on that 😉 )

EDIT I did 25 road miles today with a pal, 2-abreast mostly, but often going single file to allow traffic to pass. At times we weren't aware there was anyone behind us and once a train of 10 cars was there for probs about 10m, I felt a bit selfish we hadn't noticed and let them pass. Wouldn't have taken much off their journey time (maybe 6m?) but **** all inconvenience to us.

Oh and hope to hear from you on the hope/shimano hub thread, you've gone a bit quiet there.

1 metre? that's waaay out. Like more than a single bed in the road.

what's wrong with half that? I ride half that far out and ride with care and finesse. On the 16th August I mad a concious decsion to ride further out and and was hit by a car.

so if that the case TJ why does the cyclecraft metion the secondary postion, would they of said bugger every one else and ride in the primary postion all the time if that was the case?

As for me saying slowe moving trafic, (30mph still not that slow) maybe I didn't get my point over very well,
I should of said I be in the primary postion when you can [b]keep up[/b] with the flow of trafic and that can be from walk pace to 30mph or even 40mph if the road is pointing down.

As for riding in the gutter, gutter is closer than half a meter, half a meter is the MIN I be from the side, even that far out I still have some room to move into if I need to, yes I know I have more room if I was out from the side of the road but as i trying to get across to you there is OTHER road users and we all got to try and get on.

oldgit - you've not been killed yet? You are incredibly lucky.

If you want to ride 2 abreast its your right. You can enjoy that fact from your hospital bed. All car drivers are to be treated as the biggest idiots ever.
Their lost packets of sweets are far more important than you.

Why you guys want to ride in a road position where you are less likely to be seen, where yo will be squeezed into the kerb and in a manner that increases your danger is beyond me

And the anti bike rhetoric from a supposed cyclists site is really rather sad.

Ride safely and defensively. assert your place on the road. ensue you are seen and that cars give you room. ~Some of you really need to read cyclecraft.

Not anti cyclist, just anti self-righteous selfish dicks.

Yes anti cylist - wanting bikes to cower in the gutter and keep out of cars way instead of riding safely

TJ, that is starting to sound suspiciously like religious rhetoric to me. Do you get all your life skills from a guide book? Like how to wipe your arse? Just asking.

You didn't hear the car hit the horn at the other car for "swerving into the fast lane"

I wonder why?

I think this is quite telling, basically abdicating the driver's responsibility for how he drives his vehicle to the cyclists- "look what you made me do!"

He needs to overtake them same as he would any other slower traffic, and they're "holding him up" in just the same way that all the other traffic on the road is- after all, he'd get where he was going much quicker if they weren't there, and without so much annoying having to use the steering wheel and the brakes.

That said, people like BoardinBob are onto something- the fact is that riding like that [i]does[/i] wind people up, and exercising your rights all the time isn't always the best thing to do. Personally I probably wouldn't have ridden two abreast there. WVM's reaction is ridiculous but sadly shows the one-eyed way drivers look at things- bet he doesn't feel the need to get out of his van at the traffic lights and berate all the other drivers for "holding up traffic".

Molgrips wrote: "When it's busy I hug the kerb as much as possible so that if someone doesn't see me at all or is changing the CD or texting or something they will just blast past me and I'll end up with ruffled hair rather than splatted across their windscreen"

Aye,exactly.

On the point about winding car drivers up. I smile, I wave them thru when it is safe to do so, I thank the courteous ones.

Yes anti cylist - wanting bikes to cower in the gutter and keep out of cars way instead of riding safely

Again, no mention of gutter by anyone but you.

It's like trying to win an argument with yourself.

TJ "don't ride in the gutter"
TJ "i'm not"
TJ "don't ride in the gutter"

zzzzz

Feefoo probably has it but

TandemJeremy - Member
Why you guys want to ride in a road position where you are less likely to be seen*, where yo will be squeezed into the kerb* and in a manner that increases your danger is beyond me

* evidence please.
** as above.

And the anti bike rhetoric from a supposed cyclists site is really rather sad.

Such as?

~Some of you really need to read cyclecraft.

One of you needs to listen to the many people here who cycle, who probably cycle as much as you and feel perfectly safe.

TJ as I live and breath, when you act like that, I sit here and I picture you with one fist raised to the world, shaken in defiance at the misguided ignorance of nincompoops, that we might have an opinion that merits considering.

This situation is not black and white as you all too often advocate situations are. There are a great many issues intertwined with this one, however here are the facts.

The people driving the cars need to be more tolerant to cyclists and more aware of thier needs, the cyclists need to be more considerate to drivers relative to the circumstances.

We need to share this resource, we need to find a common ground so that we can make what little we have go a very long way.

The issue here is why do we not have a comprehensive and intergrated cycle and road network.

You can be distracted by the right and wrongs of the circumstances, or you can say who the **** caused these circumstances and how do we go about improving the situation for everyone.

Sticking on a camera and going out to intentionaly provoke drivers 😆

Jeremy.. riding away from the kerb to make drivers overtake correctly is the least of your worries ;O)

8 weeks ago you told us about the road rage incident where you played cat & mouse through the Burgh getting chased by a couple in a bmw!

"On the next block by dint of driving very aggressively the car gets alongside and surprise surprise - the rubbish comes flying out hitting the back of the bike to the accompaniment of very angry roars and offers to kick my head in. I leg it, down some side streets and away. A couple of miles later I get back on my route and get overtaken by him again - bugger - I thought I had lost him. Swerves at me very aggressively trying to force me to stop. I attempt to leg it again but crash taking a corner too fast into a housing estate - he then drives off at high speed ( I guess I was lucky at that point) But there was witnesses around including another car that stopped to make sure I was OK."

You must have been apexing it through every street that day! 😆

Just a few of the folk who understand defensive riding

poly - Member

If I was riding that road on my own I'd be in the "L" position which GrahamS/TJ refer to. If I was "with company" I'd probably be riding two abreast, and in my opinion that is the safer option (more visible, shorter over take for following traffic, and forces traffic to make a "safe" overtake not a squeeze through). Not only were they technically in the right, I think they were actually doing the sensible thing.

scu98rkr -
But in that case there is not enough room for cyclist/car/car so it doesnt make any difference if they ride two a breast in fact it might be safer, as there is no chance of two cars trying to over take you at once.

And if there was only one cyclist they'd be best taking up the whole lane anyhow.

stumpy01
For the drivers in the inside lane to overtake safely had those riders been single file, they would have to move so far over into the outside lane that other cars would be unable to pass them in that lane anyway.....if the drivers overtook the cyclist by squeezing past and staying in the same lane entirely, that would not be a safe overtake.

stevehine - Member

I'm with TJ on this one - I'd be riding either two abreast or with a large enough gap between myself and the kerb to either prevent cars overtaking or squeezing by and forcing me into the kerb. A number of incidents whilst commuting where car drivers have attempted to squeeze past and taken evasive action whilst alongside (think flecha / hoogerland in the tdf but at slower speed) have made me realise it's far better to take a pro-active road position than to allow yourself to be treated as a 2nd class citizen on the road.

This guy probably says it best

psling - Member

[b]I despair for the future of cycling on the highway in this country when even bike riders on a cycling website seem to believe that the motorised vehicle is king and that cyclists should be submissive and get out of their way. [/b]What really is needed is for drivers to be made more aware that they share the highway with other users that may be moving more slowly.
The drivers of the vehicles coming up behind the two cyclists in this instance should be competent enough to see them, to slow down as necessary, indicate to move past them and pull out safely. Drivers in the outside lane should be competent enough to see the cyclists, take note of vehicles in the inside lane that will need to pull out to pass the cyclists, and give safe space to those vehicles to allow them to pass safely. The onus is on the drivers to successfully perform these tasks. At no point is there any responsibity on the cyclists to make any manouvres beyond positively maintaining their same line [edit]AND NOT[/edit!] making any unpredictable changes of direction. IMO.

It's not workable, you will make these drivers very agitated and even more stressed out.

We need a cycle network and a new road system, reduce the kerbs by a small amount and then create a buffer zone in the centre of the road so that cars have enough space to safely pull out and over take.

If every cyclist rides like that the road system will not handle it, if we wanted to hold a mass protest at the state of the roads and demand that a new system be devised then YES, it's fine to ride like a lady.

But to say regardless of the circumstances, regardless of what other roads users need, we will do what we like! not workable.

Anyway shit to do! Hope everyone is good and that you enjoy the festive season.

Just spent an hour practicing moto x cornering, intentionally trying to get you back tyre sliding out then your front, then bringing it all back under control, Love it! 😀

Can all the pro 2 abreasters vouch that they have never got upset with caravans or tractors when they are impeded in their cars. Or walkers who walk 2 abreast and don't get out of the effing way.
Any takers?

TandemJeremy - Member

This guy probably says it best

psling - Member
I despair for the future of cycling on the highway in this country when even bike riders on a cycling website seem to believe that the motorised vehicle is king and that cyclists should be submissive and get out of their way.

I think most folk are saying:

the motorised vehicle is [u]not[/u] king and [s]that[/s] cyclists should [s]be submissive and get out of their way[/s] [u]ride in a way that is does not compromise their safety but allows safe transit of traffic past them.[/u]

Which is what roads are for, is it not?

Happy to hear from you TJ on the various points raised here and the hope hub thread, easier for you to ignore of course!

Just a few of the folk who understand defensive riding

one of your weakest efforts TJ go to the bottom of the class

PS just because I don't agree with you doesn't make me wrong

I found that while i was looking for another thread from months back where i posted about riding two abreast out on country roads where two cars,both going 60mph minimum towards each other could arrive on a bend at the same time... just as one of them approaches a cyclist.

If the cyclist/two abreast cyclists are riding around 15mph and the cars are hurtling towards each other with a 120mph impact waiting around the corner.. do you think the driver on the cyclists side of the road will automatically choose to hit the car head on or plough into the cyclists? If this happens,the driver will try his hardest to brake (if he has time to do so) but without a doubt he will probably be braking towards the cyclist and not the other vehicle. To swerve from the biggest danger is what i would consider a natural reaction for anyone.. not to mention that the cyclist would barely be noticed in the great scheme of things when two cars are about to collide without any warning.

Next time any of you two abreast riders/gutter dodgers are out on the country roads in the car.. consider the above and ask yourself if two abreast/gutter dodging is always the best policy. Youll find it isnt. Todays topic is talking about an incident on a straight road in a 30? zone. I explained why i chose to ride close to the kerb in this situation (sleepy gits and text messagers)and i think its the best option. In 30 zones i would say most cars seem to be averaging around 35mph these days.. If i ride at 15mph, i dont want to get in the path of a snoozer or text messager hitting me with a 20mph impact. I think ill stick to getting swiped from the side and deal with the falling squirrels.

Motorcycle riding and road positioning is all very well but we cant forget that although it is two wheels,the speeds arent the same.The above instance wouldnt be a problem to the cars as the motorcycle would be travelling around the same speed. Totally different ballgame. Motorcycle safety awareness can help with cyclists in some ways but we cant put everything that they taught us during the test into practice on a bicycle. The above proves it. Oldgits accident most likely proved it for him,too! (hope yer well,old git)

edit: why do commas mess up my font? Grr.

Can all the pro 2 abreasters vouch that they have never got upset with caravans or tractors when they are impeded in their cars. Or walkers who walk 2 abreast and don't get out of the effing way.
Any takers?

Yep. One here. Am chilled In a car; when I see a biker I smile as I am one and a bit jealous I am not on a bike. Don't care about caravans/tractors as they will go in another direction eventually. Walkers could get hurt, I usually tootle along or get off and walk past them. Or behind them.

TJ .
If you came from the densly populated south , with everyone in a hurry to get somewhere . Where very few people know each other , or care about each other. Where the car is king , and poor people ride bikes without paying road tax. Where time is money and everyone is "betterer than you 'coz I gotta a motor ...."
Then ride the 5 mile route i ride occaisionally, at over 1 meter from the kerb and , I kid you not , you would be verbally and / or physically abused on a daily basis . FYI 40 mph 2 way 'A' road.
Its a shame , and a sad fact of life . You simply cannot ride down the middle of the road at 20mph without getting peoples backs up.
You would get spat at , chased maybe buzzed, if you left your 'safety' gap beside you .
And its not just local to me , its endemic.

Can all the pro 2 abreasters vouch that they have never got upset with caravans or tractors when they are impeded in their cars. Or walkers who walk 2 abreast and don't get out of the effing way.
Any takers?

I'll bite. I'm quite happy to wait behind tractors, but then I don't drive much so maybe haven't got into the `right' mindset 🙂

As for walkers/canal path cyclists or whatever, yes it annoys me a bit if they're blocking the whole path and could just as well not be. But the analogy doesn't really hold for me because WVM in that video has a whole extra lane at his disposal, and there is a good reason why the riders might be 2 abreast.

I struggle with long sentences
perfectly legal and no way for any car to overtake me [single rider] without going into the outside lane anyway so whether one or two of us I would be slowing them all down/causing them all to go into the outside lane

Van driver was wrong but his view is shared by many even some of the cyclists on here

Singletrackmind
I have commuted in London and I rode like that. As said I am also courteous, I make eye contact with the cars drivers, I wave them thru when appropriate and make it easy for them to do so when safe. I give clear signals

You are saying I should be cowed into riding in a dangerous manner by the actions of others. I will not. I do not compromise my safety for anyone.

In any case if you think the south has a monopoly on behaviour like that you are mistaken. Edinburgh. Manchester. Glasgow Not much difference. Manchester was probably the scariest of the 4 cities

No, you make PIE contact by throwing their food back into their car! ;O)

May not have been my finest moment that one Martin 🙂

Did I mention London ? hhhhhhmmmmmm , . no.
Where a bike is faster than a car , and there are now so many cyclists picking a fight would leave a car driver at a distinct disadvantage.
London also has a few cctv cameras here and there , and most people are aware of this .
You ride down the middle of the road , your on your own pal .

cowed into riding in a dangerous manner

This makes you sound as if riding down the road in a straight line IS dangerous , Its not the cyclist, the road position , the weather , the time of day etc. Its too many car drivers who detest having to slow for bicycle. It sends them into an apoplectic rage where they have to get past , as soon as possible . At any cost.

So the choice is to take a safe riding position out from the kerb forcing them to overtake properly and giving you an escape route or riding in the gutter allowing them to squeeze by even if there is not enough room to do it safely and leaving you with no escape route.

No contest is it.

Really - the conditions you outline are not solely the province of where you live

Ned Flanders: “You were cycling two abreast?”

Homer Simpson: “I wish. We were cycling to a lake.”

file up!!

And its not just local to me , its endemic.

You will force more drivers into head on situations , where perhaps riding 70cm from the kerb might allow room for both .

Your version of 'safe' is very , very confrontational, and leads itself to an unsafe situation.

Like the cyclist in Bromley who got a smack because he had delayed the car a minute or so previuosly

You will force more drivers into head on situations

drivers will [i]choose[/i] rather than wait - blind bends on A road near my house makes no difference 70cm or 1m out will still overtake, 1m gives me a bit more room to laugh (not much) when truck appears

singletrackmind - its really is not you know. I am not forcing them into a head on situation. I am forcing them to take heed of me on the road and to give me space.

It is very much safer than allowing yourself to be squeezed onto the edge of the road and to allow cars to attempt to squeeze by when there is no room. the car drivers can see me better. I am in their central vision not peripheral, I can see further down the road and if a nutter wants to make an unsafe overtake I have an escape route to my left

If there is room for both I make it clear there is however I control when the cars can overtake by judging when its safe. the flipside is when its safe I make it easy for them to do so.

According to you I have to be so afraid of nutters that I have to compromise my safety. I will not be cowed into riding in an unsafe manner.

Seriously - get a copy of cyclecraft and read it and try the defensive riding.

where perhaps riding 70cm from the kerb might allow room for both .

You will force more drivers into head on situations , where perhaps riding 70cm from the kerb might allow room for both .

Eh? Are these drivers not in control of their cars then?

There aint half some crap being spouted on this thread. TJ is in the right. All this gutter hogging is dangerous and is what makes some drivers think we should be there.

I will give it a go next time im out on the RB .
Take a more central position and control my lane and assert my presence on others.
I shall report my findings.
Still think most car drivers dont give a rats arse and once you are not in the 'windcreen' you dont matter.

All this gutter hogging is dangerous

+1

The beauty of this thread is that you can tell who doesn't really ride a bike that often, or certainly doesn't on road.

It'd only take a couple of comutes in busy, fast traffic for some of you lot to shshhh.

most car drivers dont give a rats arse and once you are not in the 'windcreen' you dont matter

singletrackmind - you have to be very aware of what is behind you and when the road is wide enough for the cars to get past sit up, coast and wave em thru if you have been holding someone up. a thanks helps as well.

If yo get the nutters at least you can swerve to the left and end up with a bit more elbow room

as others have said, I'd be inbetween the S and the L - I would want my mate to be behind me as 2abreast is provocative on that road and definitely not poncying about having a conversation

but most importantly, they should be riding a damn sight quicker

ride quicker to match your speed to the traffic, less of a hazard as cars don't have to slam on the brakes if they see you late due to the other traffic etc (not an excuse for poor driving but it happens)

[edit] oh and yes, don't ride in the gutter as you give yourself no emergency swerve room - and riding on paint is not good because it's not as grippy as asphalt, it's frankly bloody dangerous when wet or icy

regardless of all the above, I would be taking the video to the plod, nice shot of the numberplate

Seriously - get a copy of cyclecraft and read it and try the defensive riding

i suggest you get a copy and read it properly.

nowhere in cyclecraft does it recommend permenantly riding in the primary position which is what i've seen you say on this thread and what the guys in that vid where doing.

a safe riding position for the majority of your journey should be in the secondary ,an arms length from the curb. primary position is for putting yourself into a position to be seen and be safe prior to making moves. riding permanently in the primary causes problems for and around you.

and yes i am a nationally accredited cycle instructor, tested and approved to work in devon and the west midlands.