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Ok Graham - I agree and you are consistent here (just!!). In the context, WVM is the one who is most in the wrong. Even Clarkson would call him "a c@ck." Then again....?
This partly some of my problems with slavish adherence to the concept of primary and secondary positions.
[url] http://grumpycycling.blogspot.com/2011/11/primary-and-secondary.html [/url]
BTW is there any evidence that it's actually safer?
Ian - I take your point taht slavish adherence to any rules is poor.
but in both of those example he would have prevented the dodgy overtake by being further out into the road - the first one I would certainly have been in a wide position so the car could not have passed on the corner ( perhaps have gone into the kerb and coasted for a few moments to let the car past when its was safe to do so between the two corners) and the second one again being right out in the lane further would prevent the dodgy overtake.
Being nest to the kerb would have put him in more danger in both those situations IMO
One of the key things IMO is to obviously let cars thru when its safe. Coast, go further left, look at them and wave 'em thru
I think what this shows is that there are a lot of fat middleclass Audi driving IT consultants who have bought a mountain bike as a life style accessory and wouldn't dream of actually riding a bike on the road.
That's ok though.
After all, this forum is call [b]Singletrack World[/b]
Not [b]Single Carraigeway World[/B] ??
Agree with the point in that blog that most drivers have absolutely no idea why you'd ever take the primary and may assume you're doing it just to wind them up.
See also the short article here: [url= http://www.citycycling.co.uk/Issue8/Purpose.html ]Doing It On Purpose (.citycycling, issue 8 )[/url]
Perhaps some education needed here? Maybe some adverts funded by the road safety charities? Perhaps they could explain the realities of "road tax" while they are at it. 😀
By the way, in the US [url= http://www.3feetplease.com/advocacy ]many states have a law that says motorists must give at least 3 feet[/url] when passing cyclists.
The left hand lane on that road is not wide enough for the van to pass a single cyclist safely* without the need for the van to cross into the right hand lane.
(* taking either a single cyclist's position or safe passing distance into account)
Therefore to the van driver, there should be no material difference between the cyclists being single file or two abreast. He clearly has anger issues triggered in this case by his incorrect belief that his progress is being hindered by people flouting the law. He needs more love in his life.
On a road ride with someone else on that road there are probably two reasons that would make me ride single file rather than two abreast - either we were riding slowly (<16/17mph) or if the traffic was exceptionally busy.
The first is simply because a higher speed differential on that particular road would make me prefer to be slightly further away from the white line than if I was doing 20-25 and the second just makes you appear more considerate towards other road users, even if - by adopting a safe position a good distance from the gutter - you aren't actually making it any easier for vehicles to pass you safely. All about perceptions.
If the guys in the video were single file in a safe position, chances are the van would still have aggressively swerved past them but far less likely the driver would have stopped to remonstrate with them.
All that said, if I was camera guy I'd have sped up and cracked a water bottle off the fat dick's head.
Unfortunately drivers (including to a greater or lesser extent me and everyone I've driven with) end up finding it difficult to 'feel' the vulnerability of the cyclist.
I've stopped regularly riding on busy roads, because there were very few where I didn't feel like I nearly died.
Even a couple of local non-busy roads seem to encourage very dangerous driving by a few (not necessarily idiots - just people who forget there could be a cycle around every corner or misjudge speed, etc).
Currently, I'm not sure there is a happy medium to be struck between car drivers and other road users.
As a cyclist who feels that vulnerability and who often rides with his sons, I'm definitely on the side of the cyclist. If there's any hope for successfully sharing roads, car drivers need educating about things like:
Planning ahead to cope with delays
Realise that taking a few risks doesn't actually save any overall time, but does cost lives.
How deadly these machines can be.
How vulnerable other road users really are.
I just feel like arguing about what road position these cyclists are in, is completely missing the point.
[i]br was point 3 (2) intended to be a joke/wordplay ? [/i]
Ah, thought I'd get away with it 🙂
richmtb - Member
This place is really **** depressing at times.
Whether it's about cars or bikes; Road threads seem to be the one's to avoid!
One of the key things IMO is to obviously let cars thru when its safe. Coast, go further left, look at them and wave 'em thru
With you 100% there.
maybe you shouldn't be alongside
66% of the people featured in the video thought the guy with the camera was probably in the wrong place.
66% of the people featured in the video thought the guy with the camera was probably in the wrong place.
Perhaps only 34% are experienced road cyclists?
Thread synopsis?
I watched the video. Thought all concerned were clueless eejits. Van driver for being a moron, cyclists for not telling the van driver that he was being a moron.
Van driver for being a moron, cyclists for not telling the van driver that he was being a moron.
😆 Yep - the only thing they did wrong was apologise - but he was a big lad and maybe they didn't want to argue in the middle of the road in case they "caused traffic".
66% of the people featured in the video thought the guy with the camera was probably in the wrong place
Which is worrying (although not altogether surprising). At least 50% of your 66% would have had to pass a test to be on the road and that is the most worrying part 😯
DezB hits the nail on the head as always.
i just wanted to make sure that in true stw tradition after 4 pages of bickering no one has actually changed their original position?
the internet wins again.
How much more interesting would forum discussions be if we all just agreed with each other all the time on everything? 😀
Just because someone is legally allowed to do something, doesn't make it best practice. Legally, any resident of Chester is allowed to shoot a Welshman with an arrow if he is within the city walls on a Sunday, but that doesn't make it sensible or advisable to do so.
No one is suggesting they should ride in the gutter and let traffic bully them but trundling along two abreast at a snails pace achieves one thing only: pissing off drivers.
Yes, they're legally entitled to trundle along two abreast, but as cyclists we need to be a bit smarter about how we present ourselves to drivers. From the original video, all we have is a bunch of pissed off drivers that hate cyclists even more.
How about the cyclists adopt the primary position, drivers still have to enter the other lane to safely overtake, but most importantly, psychologically the drivers won't hate the cyclists as much because despite having to make essentially the same overtaking move had they been riding two abreast, the drivers won't perceive the cyclists to be hogging the piece of tarmac the driver thinks they have exclusive right to use.
liked the pic of the bus witn the 1.5m poster on it, then disappointed to see not from UK
think the idea that it is illegal for cyclists to ride two abreast is pretty common and is used by those who already should be having anger management to have a go at cyclists
dual carriageway near us (penistone road sheffield) is 30mph limit but 40-45mph reality - lanes are in my opinion too narrow for vehicles to pass (single) cyclists without moving a couple of feet into outside lane - this regularly provokes furious horn honking and gestures by those choosing to drive a car length from vehicle in front and ignore presence of cyclist and my indications
Is riding two abreast legal?
Yes
As a cyclist, do I think that it's inconsiderate?
Depends on the circumstances. For example riding two abreast on a busy single carraiageway A road is something I would say is inconsiderate. I've seen two teenage girls on horses cause a 1/2 mile tailback doing exactly this. While the entitlement to do this might be protected by law, it's hardly applying due consideration for everyone else is it?
Ok they are "in the right" but as people has said is it worth it? but with a double lane I prob be there as well if riding with someone. but maybe go back to single riding if we start coursing a hold up.
But as Tj has asked at the start, "where would you be riding"
TJ said
"According to standard defensive riding techniques one should adopt the primary position - occupy your lane. there is not enough room there for two cars and a bike so you adpopt ther oad positioning that forces cars to overtake properly so as not to get squeezed into the edge and also to give you an escape route if required"
Sorry TJ going have to disagre, the Primary postion is more used when in slower moving traffic where you can keep up and it also help stop cars over taking and taking up that half a car lenght that is in front of you.
If I was on my own I be in the secondary postion. (about .5 meter from the edge) along that road and the road been clear and fast moving traffic.
"Because the primary riding postion can result in some inconvenience to following drivers, it is reasonable to ride further to the left when this could help others, [i]so long as your own saety is not thereby impaired[/i]. At these times you should adapt the [b]secondary riding position[/b]
This is also from the book Cycle craft by John Franklin.
(*note i have not read all 4 fourm pages.)
If you see someone you perceive to be driving like an arsehole you think "drivers are arseholes"
Similarly, if someone sees a cyclist cycling like an arsehole in their opinion, they think "cyclists are arseholes"
How about the cyclists adopt the primary position, drivers [s]still have to[/s] don't bother to enter the other lane to safely overtake
How about the cyclists adopt the primary position, drivers still don't bother to enter the other lane to safely overtake
Then they would run them down. Just as they could run them down when they're riding two abreast.
What's your point?
MTB rob
Do you really think there is room for bike / car /car???
ride 50cm cm from the kerb and your safety is very much compromised - you will get vehicles attempting to pass you while staying in the lane - look at the still picture Graham posted. there is not enough room for bike / car / car IMO so hold your lane and make them pass properly.
Remeber its a30 mph limit road and you are approaching a junction - not e the slow signs in the road
...but most importantly, psychologically the drivers won't hate the cyclists as much because despite having to make essentially the same overtaking move had they been riding two abreast...
Exactly this. I wanted to say it on page one, but really didn't want to get involved (dammit, too late!).
It's all about perception, i.e., the drivers' perception of the cyclists. It's probably much more hassle for a driver to overtake twice, but they (drivers) will be much more easier to share the road with if they perceive that the cyclists are "doing the right thing", even if it is not the right thing.
Oh and a quick sneaky edit; if the two cyclists had been doing 18mph on road bikes and wearing 'proper' cycling gear, I doubt there would have been any bother.
If I was on my own I be in the secondary postion. (about .5 meter from the edge) along that road and the road been clear and fast moving traffic.
Which would almost certainly result in drivers passing you far too close because they reckon they can get past without changing lanes. In such circumstances you ride in primary to force the drivers to change lanes and therefore give you enough room. Forcing drivers to change lanes doesn't inconvenience them in any significant sense. Allowing them to overtake without changing lanes impairs your safety.
If it's necessary to ride in the gutter so as to avoid annoying car drivers, I suggest you all get on the bike paths and avoid riding on the road at all, as that also annoys car drivers.
TJ, No I don't think there is room for a bike/car/car at the same time, but 96% of drivers will give me enough room on that road and pass me when no other car in the outside lane.
I was trying to point out that we SHARE the roads and riding in the Primary postion along a fast moving traffic like in the vid can be inconvenience to other driver (and I see you point we have a right to be there) but you more likely to piss drives off and have that idiot drive to close to you than if you where more in the secondary postion, they prob give you more space.
If it was slow moving traffic say through town I be right out there in the primary postion.
Oh dear riding a bike ain't rocket science. I'd be two abreast along there. My guess is that the duo are just sh** riders. And they seem to think they can do what they want in the inside lane as there's another lane for motorists, they've adopted a them and us attitude.
****wits I'd give em a kick if I was riding by.
mtb rob - its a 30 mph limit
If there is no room for bike car car then you need to get out of the gutter otherwise they will try to make room
And they said sorry, lily livered dopes. If your going to hold your ground the reply is * of * whilst giving the Italian salute.
Think Bike ... Ha Ha
[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7021/6516764595_bc9aebac22_o.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/58162507@N07/6516764595/ ]IMG_5934[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/58162507@N07/ ]SGMTB[/url], on Flickr
[url= http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7174/6516764251_8292ae860a_o.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/58162507@N07/6516764251/ ]IMG_5928[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/58162507@N07/ ]SGMTB[/url], on Flickr
Sorry whats 30 limit got to do with it?
I am not as fit as I was, but even then I couldn't ride at 30mph for long to keep up with the traffic.
Also there was no cars parked along the road, if there was I be more in the primary postion.
It's all about reading the road ahead and seeing what is coming, yes granted that car drivers need to do more of this.
TJ DO you ride every where in the primary postion, town, open road country roads 30, 40 50 or 60 mph limits?
Rob - you said if it was slow moving traffic thru town - hence I pointed out it is a 30 limit.
I almost never ride within 50 cm of the kerb / edge of road. sometimes when waving cars past I will go that close. Yes I use the primary position as my default position on the roads. I control when the cars can pass me, I ensure I can see and be seen,
I don't understand how you can accept there is no room for bike/ car/ car and still intend to ride in the gutter where th ecar drivers will try to make it so.
Which would almost certainly result in drivers passing you far too close
Would? This is not a hypothetical situation, most of us are doing this day in day out. I've ridden many thousands of miles half a metre from the kerb, and it's been fine mostly. If people are going to buzz past me then they tend to be the ones that will bomb past you regardless. Moving out only tends to force them onto the other side of the road and in the path of some on-coming car. Which happens quite a lot.
I choose to co-operate wherever possible with other drivers. It might not inconvenience them to be two abreast but it's all about perception. And, in case you hadn't noticed, there is a bit of a PR battle going on here. Many of them hate our guts, and I don't want to do anything to make that worse, rules or no rules.
Not going to trawl 5 pages of arguements , have skip read 3 so get the gist.
I understand riding further out in the road to force cars to do a ' proper' overtakng manoevere is safer . You are less likely to disappear down a drain cover , and be more in the eyeline of the car driver .
BUT . Many , many drivers do not have the ability or simply the patience to do a proper overtake . Lots of drivers cannot judge speed v distance , or use of road position to increase the VP to make overtaking safer.
Too many people refuse to wait for as little as 10 seconds when approaching a blind corner , they just overtake and hope.
Do not pretend this has not happened to you , It will have . You will have seen this from your car as a ditherer slows , does a half hearted overtake, dithers some more , texts someone , rolls a fag , gets bored and overtakes when a bus / lorry / chav comes round the corner
On your bike , approaching the same corner or parked car you hear everything, the revs drop as they dump the clutch , then the brakes grind a little as they stop 6" off your back wheel. then you hear the turbo spool up , just as you are in the danger zone .
You know what is going to happen when the Tesco Express Arctic comes round the corner . No driver who is terrible enough to overtake and rely on The force / luck / balls or God that someting doesnt come round the corner will take it on the bonnet. If they are that bad at driving or in such a rush 15 seconds or kill a cyclist is SO important they will never , ever have a head on collision with an oncoming vehicle . They will not have the abilty to stuff it up the kerb on the opposite side of the road.
999 / 1000 they will swerve in and hope they miss the cyclist , even if they clip the cyclist .they think its OK .
So riding 1 meter out on a 2 way raod just increases the chances of a do or die overtake, and i can pretty much guarentee who will be the one in the ambulance
don't give a Four X knock them off and let them learn the hard way
singletrackmind - but if yo are further from the kerb you have an escape route for the do or die overtake - you can swerve left.
1m out is not the primary position anyway - you need to be significantly further out that that especially approaching a corner
So molgrips yo are prepared to put yourself at a much greater risk to avoid inconvenienceing a car driver?
Moving out only tends to force them onto the other side of the road and in the path of some on-coming car
correct - which makes it safer for you! Yo have an escape route to teh left adn you have forced them to make a proper overtake
Righteous road users spend every day being indignant and stressed out.
They usually end up having an accident.
Give and take is the only logical way to travel by road.
Those cyclists were taking too much and giving nothing.
What makes me laugh is these "facts" that always come out stating how far out you should be.
Unless you are constantly on the same bit of road, or you are such a crap rider you don't make allowances for the conditions you are riding in... It DEPENDS. THERE IS NO HARD AND FAST RULE.
Dez - one that that is certain - riding in the gutter as some folk here think you should is increasing your danger significantly
Personally I would add myself to the "I wouldn't cycle two abreast in that situation" camp, however that doesn't automatically make me a gutter hugger as some would have you believe.