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Following a discussion with a neighbour who was caught by a camera van doing 47 in a 40, her argument was that it was simply to generate revenue and completely unfair to fine her for breaking the speed limit on the grounds that it was positioned such that it caught people going from the 50 to 40 section of the road.
Well, so what? Why shouldn't people who don't pay attention to the road signage pay more for the privilege of using the roads? Think how much extra revenue could be generated if all the gantry cameras on the motorway actually enforced the 70 limit. Why shouldn't speed cameras be hidden and the money from inattentive drivers go back into central government? Ring-fence it for the police or education or the NHS if need be.
Most people are fine with speeding until they get caught or it affects them negatively.
They don't see themselves as the issue. Safe speeders and all that.
47 was probably 50 on her speedo though. In a 40.
her argument was that it was simply to generate revenue
Is bollocks.
It’s remarkable how poorly people understand what happens with council funding. One of the reasons we have such low standards of roads enforcement is that all the fines go directly to HM Treasury and the councils bear the cost of enforcement.
What should happen is for the councils to retain the income, ring-fenced for road safety interventions. And they should also be allowed to do camera enforcement of parking which they currently aren’t, thanks to Eric Pickles.
Why shouldn't speed cameras be hidden
Come on mate, the police are having enough trouble with their public image as it is.
Also, I'm sure they have sound reasons for using them as a visual deterrant as well.
And if there's a big hi-vis painted van and you still get caught, you really must not have been paying attention.
simply to generate revenue
Classic line from the "War on motorists!!1" brigade.
Well here's a thing, you can stop them generating revenue by... not speeding.
Would be interesting to know how they do choose the spots to position their vans. If they really wanted to just generate revenue, the main road past my road is a 30 and nearly every car does 40+ down it, cos it's long and straight, but I've only seen a radar van there about twice in 10 years. A lollipop man was killed on the road not that long ago too.
Fence sitting mode - rather, 2 sides to this
1/ totally agree. If you're inattentive enough to know what the limit is, where has your mind wandered off to and what else are you missing? And if you are inattentive, or simply don't care, then you will welcome reminding in the form of points and a fine to help focus your mind - far preferable to causing an accident I'd presume? That also goes for people that seem to think that a limit sign is an invite to maintain the previous limit up to the sign and then drift down to the new limit in some timescale you deem acceptable.
2/ If they are designed to reduce the speed in dangerous places then they need to be visible, to force that behaviour (NWS those above that don't notice anyway)
Hiding them to create revenue doesn't solve (2) but OTOH, it does create a culture of speeding unless you can see a camera, and the cameras are well marked (and increasingly flagged on Waze, etc.) which in some senses makes it worse.
So on balance - hide them and bollocks to those that break the limit.
I've already told the story of being caught doing 40 (IIRC) in a 30 mph zone after encountering the sign immediately following a corner and simply lifting rather than braking. If the police had been a couple of hundred metres down the road I'd have likely not been prosecuted. Still my fault though so I didn't whinge about it.
Soon afterwards (we're talking 30 years ago) speed limit countdown signs were installed before and through that same corner. If the intention of the speed trap was to improve road safety in the town then the signs are probably a better solution.
Speeding is not necessarily dangerous though. A local road had its limit cut from 60 to 30. There is no history of accidents. So is it now dangerous driving at 20mph over the limit?
I commend Speed Cameras Scotland for turning off numerous speed cameras. Presumably the revenue generated did not cover the costs of operating them.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/motors/12488010/full-list-speed-cameras-turned-off-scotland/
If the intention of the speed trap was to improve road safety in the town then the signs are probably a better solution.
From a human factors POV, probably not. The best thing you can do is design the system so people can’t do the wrong thing, and that means reducing the design speed of roads.
I live on a wide, straight, urban A-road with a 30 mph limit. As a result of the road layout, no-one sticks to the limit, despite it passing several primary schools etc.
FWIW I've just had a look at Google Maps for the corner in question. There's now a 40 mph speed limit starting before the corner. (It's the A68 heading north into Jedburgh).
I speed (like most) but I feel I do it in a responsible manner, (ie: never in residential areas and slowing down for junctions). In my opinion speed cameras are an observation test. If you are speeding and can't spot a camera/van, then you aren't observant enough to be responsibly driving. I have a few friends who almost never speed, but they are always getting tickets for minor speeding, (one has three this year). Despite riding motorbikes/driving fast cars for 20 years, I've only been caught once for 34mph in a van! Riding motorbikes teaches incredible levels of observation for survival and avoiding cameras.
Speeding is against the law, if you speed you deserve to be prosecuted and if you fail to learn you should not be allowed to drive.
I dont really care how great a driver you are or that you have superior observational skills, you still need prosecuting.
I am sick of being overtaken when obeying the speed limit.
I am sick of being overtaken when obeying the speed limit.
My Mum routinely gets overtaken when observing the 20mph speed limit in the network of residential streets. As soon as it opens up a bit, there'll be some massive urban ****er tanker floor it past her.
It terrifies her having these things right up her bumper, she's only got a little Yaris so when there's something more suitable for troop transport in Syria than a run to Sainsbury's right on her boot, she can't see a thing out the mirrors.
@Bruce - It's not as simple as that. I've been on Police motorbike safety courses where they led us at upto 90 mph on the road and then let us lead at speeds up to 20 mph over the limits (eg: 80mph on a country lane, 90mph on a motorway) as they wanted to observe and guide motorcyclists how to be safer in the real world. We were reminded that while they were observing we could be 'pulled over' for dangerous riding.
I did those speeds on the road with a marked police rider following me. Some of the things they teach are to slow down to below the limit for junctions, look for dangerous moments where other traffic can block your visibility and not speed in residential areas. If speeding automatically is against the law in all scenarios, they wouldn't run the course in that manner.
And if there's a big hi-vis painted van and you still get caught, you really must not have been paying attention.
Saw a Police SM post recently where someone was whining about not seeing camera vans and the Police effectively offered to add driving without due care to the charge list
There's a section of road near me that was built to bypass a small village and there was often a camera van 2/3 of the way along it. Recently, the junction at one end has been dropped to a 40 limit so the van has now moved to a spot to allow it to catch people entering the 40 zone while coasting down from 60.
A mindset change is needed. A speed limit is a limit, not a target.
I am sick of being overtaken when obeying the speed limit.
We have a 20mph limit near us and I have been overtaken multiple times, including one dope who overtook me right outside the entrance to a school, and through a set of pedestrian lights (so zig-zags on the road).
A speed limit is a limit, not a target.
Conversely, you could be failed on a driving test if the examiner felt you were travelling unduly slowly for the conditions.
There's what is legally correct, i.e. obeying 100% of speed limits, and then there's real life:
I did those speeds on the road with a marked police rider following me. Some of the things they teach are to slow down to below the limit for junctions, look for dangerous moments where other traffic can block your visibility and not speed in residential areas. If speeding automatically is against the law in all scenarios, they wouldn't run the course in that manner.
I'm not holier than thou and can't claim I've never broken a speed limit in my my life - 3pts for 79mph in a 70mph as a (much) younger version of myself on the way to the 'Crail Thrash' quarter mile day attests to that. @solamanda's post above is what I aim to practice. Not that I go out with the intention of breaking a speed limit out of town. City/residential scenarios and potentially hazardous situations are where I'm hardline about limit breaking - greater roll out of 20mph limits in residential/town centres can't come soon enough.
If there were cameras that 'generated revenue' from catching burglars or shoplifters, the public would be all for it. Unfortunately people seem to thing that speeding is only a crime when someone else does it.
And I'm not being holier than thou, I know I break the speed limit (not hugely, not always, but I'm honest enough to know that I'm no saint) and on the occasions that I've been caught I've taken it on the chin/license/speed awareness course
If speeding automatically is against the law in all scenarios, they wouldn't run the course in that manner
An alternative interpretation is that they know some people will ride over the speed limit and that they'd rather make riders safer at speed than ignore the issue and have to deal with more incidents. Accepting that people speed does not affect the legality of speeding. (not intended as holier than thou, just a different view of why they run things like that)
I'm hardly an angel when driving but... it's a fools game
Speed vs paceometer
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MOpgVAcyIhM
She's have saved aprox 3minute over a 10mile journey, this ignores the high probability of killing yourself in a crash or any pedestrian hit at this speed .
Also, I'm sure they have sound reasons for using them as a visual deterrant as well.
Maybe, but that's not what they do.
There's loads around here (Borders) with a big orange bag over saying 'Not in Use' My argument would be even if only one or two are active keep the others visible, and maybe a load of cheap dummies too, and ideally rotate them if they can't have them all working at once, keep people guessing which ones are functional and which aren't and they all work, even if only a few ever take pictures. But apparently there's some rule stopping them having dud ones, which is bonkers.
.
Also, there's some (a good example being the A7 between Stow and Galashiels) where they place the mobile van on a dead straight, flat bit of A road with good visibility. There might be speeding there but it's probably fairly safe, two miles north is a regularly flouted twenty limit in a village, where I think speeding is much more dangerous, but they never put the van there. I don't know why.
So as a way of reducing speeds they do seem to be missing some obvious, cheap solutions
I'm firmly on the side of I'd rather see US levels of enforcement. Maybe reduce the issuance of points to only cases where it's >10mph over. But I'd happily see roads policing become almost self funding by issuing £50 fines for 5-10mph over, brake lights and head lights out, lane discipline, generally poor driving standards, etc.
In my view... A person that enjoys driving/riding and takes a pride in their skill and competence at this (ie., solamanda) is much more likely to be a safe and considerate driver than the beta-male or stressed out mother who has no interest in their driving skills and is more focussed on getting to their destination whilst distracted by their phone, food, coffee, etc., without ever having a thought for others' safety.
If you can't even spot the camera van or marked police car, then you should get charged with speeding AND driving without due care imho. And, whilst I'm at it, I'd start fining all these pavement parkers too!
I will add... I used to be a bit naughty on the motorbikes so accept accusations of a hypocritic nature. Also, like many I guess, I've occasionally found my speed drifting a bit over the limit :-/
I'm by no means a saint when it comes to speeding, but I'm pretty sensible these days. I'm generally very careful on urban roads, I spend a lot of time out and about walking the dog, and people driving like idiots in 30 and 20mph limits does wind me up.
Thing is if i was caught speeding on a Motorway or A-road I'd just take it on the chin. The "revenue generator" mob are the worst, its this sort of attitude, to what is in reality pretty low-key enforcement of road safety, that leads to people thinking that cutting down ULEZ cameras and vandalising speed cameras (which then turn out to be air quality monitors) is somehow defendable behaviour.
I mean "Bladerunners" FFS
But I'd happily see roads policing become almost self funding by issuing £50 fines for 5-10mph over, brake lights and head lights out, lane discipline,
Me too. No problem generating revenue from people who cant drive or observe. with the exception of phone use at the wheel - id happily see those guys have their cars cubed.
Thing is in some nsl roads you'd be flipping mad to drive at 60mph, narrow twisty country lanes with high hedges as one example, whereas in others, pushing 80 wouldn't be an issue. Also, how does a bit of tarmac magically become safer to drive at 60 whereas a metre earlier it was deemed 30 was the only safe speed. So in my view religiously sticking to the posted speed limits is not necessarily the best way to drive.
In France they have rear facing cameras disguised as front facing to catch out speeding bikers & I wouldn't be against a mixture of stealth & deterrent use of cameras myself.
In France they have rear facing cameras disguised as front facing to catch out speeding bikers
genius 🤣
In France they have rear facing cameras disguised as front facing to catch out speeding bikers
genius 🤣
They also have gendarmes.
Thing is in some nsl roads you'd be flipping mad to drive at 60mph, narrow twisty country lanes with high hedges
Yes, the NSL should not be anything like 60 on these. There's an argument that on unclassified roads it should be 30.
Perhaps all cars should be fitted with GPS so that speed limit violations could be automatically issued by the car itself.
A bit like in the film Demolition Man - "John Spartan, you have been fined one credit for a violation of the speed limit rule...."
Perhaps all cars should be fitted with GPS so that speed limit violations could be automatically issued by the car itself.
IIRC all new cars (since 01 Apr?) have got to have automatic speed limiters based on sign recognition.
Would be interesting to know how they do choose the spots to position their vans. If they really wanted to just generate revenue, the main road past my road is a 30 and nearly every car does 40+ down it, cos it's long and straight,
Doing acoustics at uni, I once spent a couple of hours measuring the volume of passing cars.
You'd be amazed how sensibly people drive if you stand at the side of the road wearing a high vis and pointing a decibel meter at things...
In France they have rear facing cameras disguised as front facing to catch out speeding bikers & I wouldn't be against a mixture of stealth & deterrent use of cameras myself.
They have speed cameras embedded in motorway central reservations - there was a cracking pic of the Tour de France riders setting one off as the bunch caned it down a long descent.
If speeding automatically is against the law in all scenarios, they wouldn't run the course in that manner.
The message was dumbed down, it should read inappropriate speed kills.30mph down a double parked narrow residential street is within the legal limit but inappropriate and as dangerous as ****!
IIRC all new cars (since 01 Apr?) have got to have automatic speed limiters based on sign recognition
July 24 ... but it can be overridden by pressing hard on the accelerator ....which is quite funny as that's the very thing you do when youd like to speed.
If speeding automatically is against the law in all scenarios, they wouldn't run the course in that mannerAn alternative interpretation is that they know some people will ride over the speed limit and that they'd rather make riders safer at speed than ignore the issue and have to deal with more incidents. Accepting that people speed does not affect the legality of speeding. (not intended as holier than thou, just a different view of why they run things like that)
It might be, but highway maintenance driving courses also establish that speeding to create a safe stopping environment is recommended i.e. If you are needing to stop on the hard shoulder or pull in to roadworks and there is a car following closely, it is recommended that you increase the gap even if that means speeding to do so.
It doesn't mean it is not illegal, but it is also sometimes the safest approach to a situation.
It might be, but highway maintenance driving courses also establish that speeding to create a safe stopping environment is recommended i.e. If you are needing to stop on the hard shoulder or pull in to roadworks and there is a car following closely, it is recommended that you increase the gap even if that means speeding to do so.
It doesn't mean it is not illegal, but it is also sometimes the safest approach to a situation.
While I can understand that, I struggle to see how speeding in an urban, speed restricted area would ever add anything to the safety of the environment for anyone.
On a related note, I have a relative who was pulled for speeding into the 30mph zone locally and given a warning (even though she was at 37mph). She was all indignant and telling us it was a change of the limit in that area and that no-one had told her / put out warning signs / relayed this important information to her.
You mean like the 8' tall signs with big red and white circles on saying '30' which were changed about 2.5 years ago....and she drives that road daily.
You'd be amazed how sensibly people drive if you stand at the side of the road wearing a high vis and pointing a decibel meter at things...
I know, effective for some folk, maybe 75% or so. I used to do the same, except it was a hand held speed camera. Most folk slow down, some folk slow right down to shout abuse (not many) and the best are the ones who think they were not going slow enough and then stop in a panic to find out what they were doing... just in case, because of being on 9 points already. They are always massively relieved to find that we can't give out points, but they get reported anyway. A few don't give a shit and hammer through a village at 70+. 78mph was the highest we had... in a tiny village. Old bloke in a jaguar something at 10 in the morning. We picked the community speedwatch locations for good visibility, and being relevant pedestrian heavy locations, like outside the playpark. The police have to then approve our locations and ensure a minimum distance away from a change in speed limit.
You mean like the 8' tall signs with big red and white circles on saying '30' which were changed about 2.5 years ago....and she drives that road daily.
"Driving without due care and attention"?
You mean like the 8' tall signs with big red and white circles on saying '30' which were changed about 2.5 years ago....and she drives that road daily.
This one? https://maps.app.goo.gl/5DTHdgAhTLbctAyXA. Don't think she's alone as every time I drive that road someone will be right up my chuff not long into the 30mph limit.
An aside, that one could benefit from advance countdown warning. Going from a 50mph limit, downhill with the corner limiting how far away you can see the 30mph signs, it's not one where lifting off the accelerator and letting speed reduce naturally works.