However if they are bought as a set then the whole set needs to be of fit purpose. I had a retailer who I bought a chair and ottoman from, they never delivered the ottoman so the whole transaction was refunded by the credit card company and the retailer never bothered to collect the chair.
I would not roll over in this circumstance.
EDIT: I either mis read the previous post or their was some editing after I posted my reply 🙂
You have legal rights under the CRA; enforce them.
What @cougar said.
checking this is a UK retailer? Different consumer rights apply elsewhere.
A calm and polite discussion with the retailer on the failure of the speaker for the purpose for which it was intended will surely bring about effective resolution before escalating to credit card disputes or small claims.
Remember as well that for remote purchases the distance selling regulations can help in different circumstances.
Remember as well that for remote purchases the distance selling regulations
Don't exist anymore, it's the cra...
So i have an update
I managed to speak to someone higher up at the importer
They have said that they have no record of my retailer purchasing the speakers from them so they are investigating to find out why
Because of this they would like me to return the speaker to them for inspection, which is something they dont normally do
So ill be returning it this week, im 99% sure i havent set it up wrong but if the UK importer deem its a user set up error etc.. then ill accept their decision and ill have to find out what happend to cause the issue
What are they going to do if they find it's faulty, if they claim not to have supplied it to the retailer in the first place?
If you paid for the item with your credit card, raise a chargeback via them.
They will do all of the chasing for you.
They will push the retailer to handle the issue, or if they fail to they will just refund you the money.
I did this via NatWest a year ago. Filled in a form, sent it off and surprisingly the retailer came up with a solution quickly...
Interesting update but not relevant - unless you intend to allow the retailer to walk over you.
They (the retailer) are denying your statutory legal rights.
Make it explicitly clear you intend to enforce your rights with them - polite but firm.
The importer's comments would cause me to question where the retailer sourced the other components from and, on that basis, would be looking to return everything for full refund as a fully functioning pair of speakers is an integral part of the system.
resistance is futile.
Impedance. 😁
Only you know if you’ve done something daft and damaged them.
If you haven’t then don’t accept the retailer refusing to deal with your return.
If you think you have then **** it, it's still down to them to prove. There's two speakers, they've both been driven at the same rate and the other one's fine, any further questions?
I wouldn't be sending anything to the importer. There's nothing in it for them to refund you.
Because of this they would like me to return the speaker to them for inspection
To what end? What are they inspecting, what are they proposing to do post-inspection? How does this help you?
Why ask for advice if you're then going to ignore two pages' worth and do something entirely different?
I wouldn’t be sending anything to the importer. There’s nothing in it for them to refund you.
"Yeah, we've discovered they're counterfeit / grey imports so we've destroyed them. kkthxbi."
If they have no record of the import, I would be inviting the retailer to comment on this claim. In case you missed it,
[color=red]YOUR CONTRACT OF SALE IS WITH THE RETAILER. THEY ARE LEGALLY LIABLE. A FAULT INSIDE OF SIX MONTHS IS DEEMED TO BE INHERENT. IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVE OTHERWISE.[/color]
End of. No-one else has any legal responsibility here unless you paid wholly or in part by credit card in which case that gives you an additional recourse under the Consumer Credit Act. Did you?
Impedance. 😁
I didn't say anything disrespectful or rude!
Why ask for advice if you’re then going to ignore two pages’ worth and do something entirely different?
Are you new here? "ignore and do something entirely different" is precisely Why you ask for advice on STW.
Fair. 😂
It always used to make me laugh, threads going "I've bought this, is it any good?" Well, if it isn't then it's a bit late to be asking, isn't it.
The retailer isnt refusing the return they are saying they will automatically reject any claim as they say ive caused the issue and ive no way to prove otherwise so there is no point in returning it to them as it will get me nowhere
The importer said they have no record of the speakers purchase, dosent mean it wasnt purchased from them just they have no record of it hence the investigation, they said the retailer has purchased various other speakers of the same brand from them just mine isnt showing on their records, could simply be a clerical error
Importer has said that if the speaker is found to be at fault then they will be happy to replace it for me
Its all boxed up awaiting collection
I would be inviting the retailer to comment on this claim.
It would certainly be a good first option.
I'm not convinced the importer could legally seize/destroy the property of a consumer though. If they inspected and found it to be counterfeit, that surely would be in the OP's favour in a small claims decision.......if it went that far.
edit after crossed post - yeah, I think you are doing the right thing.
It was definitely brand new from the retailer?
The retailer isnt refusing the return they are saying they will automatically reject any claim as they say ive caused the issue and ive no way to prove otherwise so there is no point in returning it to them as it will get me nowhere
Bollocks. You do not have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on them.
The importer said they have no record [blah blah etc]
So what, who cares. This affects you how?
Importer has said that if the speaker is found to be at fault then they will be happy to replace it for me
At fault, or faulty? A subtle but important difference I fear.
This all sounds very promising but understand, to the best of my knowledge you have no legal redress here if it goes sideways.
Return to retailer.
If retailer refuses to refund, repair or replace, raise issue with credit card provider.
I suspect that the card provider won't help if you have no evidence of trying to resolve it with the retailer.
I wouldn't be sending it to the importer.
The retailer isnt refusing the return they are saying they will automatically reject any claim
One thing is the other.
Thank the importer for their time, go back to the retailer and tell them you're returning it under the CRA as faulty. Be very very clear, under the cra they are statutorily required to prove that was nothing wrong. That doesn't mean you didn't break it that means that means you and only you broke it.
When (if) they reject your claim, ask for a full copy of the engineer's report showing how the damage occurred and disproving the presence of any contributory faults.
Also a month ago how accurate is this, up the 30 days you've a short term right to reject so, if you're not convinced they're going to play nice just tell them you're exercising that and to kindly not complain as you piss on their chips.
Burned voice-coil warranty exclusons are common, as pretty much the only reason they burn out is if they're 'mistreated' by the amp. Being driven by an under-powered amplifier is the more common cause - it's the clipping that kills the coil.
But I don't think much of the retailer in this situation. They should be explaining this to you politely and reasonably, and at least offering to look at them and give you the option of an out-of-warranty repair.
Burned voice-coil warranty exclusons are common, as pretty much the only reason they burn out is if they’re ‘mistreated’ by the amp
It is not a warranty problem. They cannot exempt themselves from their statutory obligations. The op has zero reason to be looking at warranty and that's another reason not to be dealing with the importer.
They should be explaining this to you politely and reasonably, and at least offering to look at them and give you the option of an out-of-warranty repair.
No, they should not. It is not a warranty issue. The op doesn't need an out of warranty repair.
If they think it's a voice coil failure caused by the op they need to prove that.
They need to prove that not one of the components on that board has a post supply failure rate greater than zero, they need to prove there is zero possiblity for contributory damage to have occurred in transit. They need to prove that particular unit has absolutely nothing at all wrong with it at the point of delivery and then they need to prove that electronic consumer goods do not, on occasion, fail through no fault of the user's.
They need to prove there was nothing wrong before "the op broke it".
In short the retailer needs to climb back in their box and replace or repair.
It is not possible for them to meet their statutory obligations without either replacing the unit or defying the laws of physics and proving a negative.
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy
This is a decent guide
Do NOT return to the importer. Its nothing to do with them
YOU have good strong legal rights here. Use them
I'm sure you're right about the obligations, dangeourbrain, but my point is about the fault in question. The OP should certainly try, but it's worth them knowing that they will very likely be wasting their time.
Given the description (it sounds properly burned) there's close to zero chance it's a manufacturing fault. It's the audio equivalent of taking a melted saucepan back to the shop.
It looks like the retailer is challenging OP.
I don't see why they cannot accept it back and I doubt the manufacturer will want to jeopardise their relationship after all the retailer buy bulk from them and as their outlet.
They need to prove there was nothing wrong before “the op broke it”.
Right, and if it was working on day 1, it was working before the op broke it.
This is a bit like someone fitting an inner tube and pinching it in the process, so it doesn't hold air. No reasonable bike shop would replace it as it's obvious what has happened, and they can prove this with some maufacturer tests (most will do this) that are run before it goes out the door.
Whether it is reasonable out not is irrelevant. The shop have less legal recourse than the chance that it's a manufacturing fault.
If there's a 0.00001% chance the OP's speaker went pop for no reason at all they're stuck.
They are required, by law, to prove there wasn't a fault. It isn't an option, it isn't a question of reasonable. The law is deliberately designed to be onerous on the retailer.
The op could, quite literally have pissed inside the speaker before it blew up and still take it back and it's still the shop's problem if they can't prove the op did it. "might have been the delivery driver. Box looked like it has got wet now you mention it" shop's problem.
Shop tested the speaker? Maybe their amp caused the problem etc etc.
The op could know fine well he caused the issue, still take it back and still very much expect the shop to repair or replace all the while muttering obscenely through their smile. He'd be a dick if he did but he'd absolutely be entitled to do it and the shop would absolutely be required to either prove he did it or put up.
Every time people bitch and moan about the price of things in the UK, how much margin on a bike etc they rather forget they're paying for some of the best consumer protection in the world. You price for failure, you price for the real world and you price for idiots so that when something goes wrong you can deal with it according to your obligations.
Right, and if it was working on day 1, it was working before the op broke it.
Uh huh, so if the op bought a car from a dealer and the bottom fell off 100 yards from the forecourt that would be the OP's problem right?
Not every problem is apparent on day 1, the law recognises and protects that truth, even at the expense of the occasional disingenuous claim.
Whatever the outcome OP I'd be voting with my wallet and never using them again.
Not quite surely dangerousbrain?
The shop needs a recognised expert to state that in his opinion its obvious user error and for that expert to be able to back up their reasoning or something similar to that because at the end of the day it would be settled in a courtroom. Is it criminal standard of proof or civil?
I know nothing about the technical side of this at all but if its an open and shut case as in the melted saucepan or pinched tube that its user error in some way then its not worth pursuing.
so i may just cut my losses and sell the remaining speakers in the system to recoup some cash and not have to deal with this company
I can’t believe you are prepared to roll over like this if you genuinely believe that you haven’t damaged the speaker through your own error.
+1
OP. You appear to be letting them walk all over you.
Get in contact with CC company and tell them to sort it out.
It’s the audio equivalent of taking a melted saucepan back to the shop.
But surely if a saucepan melted you would instantly assume manufacturing fault - no? If the OP has fried some speakers and if that possibility was clearly a likely outcome if certain conditions were met and it was also highly likely that one could meet those conditions easily enough without knowing then there should be clear warnings in the instructions and if there aren’t then is it the OPs fault? If it’s quite hard to fry them and the OP would have had to be connecting them to the equivalent of the PA system at the O2 in order to damage them then that’s different obv.
None of that is really relevant mind you as the OP should just be following the advice given and go back to the shop followed by getting his amp checked (somewhere else).
The shop needs a recognised expert to state that in his opinion its obvious user error and for that expert to be able to back up their reasoning or something similar to that because at the end of the day it would be settled in a courtroom. Is it criminal standard of proof or civil
As I understand it -
Statute, is neither really. Statute effectively presumes guilt until you can prove otherwise, so the standard of proof is criminal but presumption against the defendant.
They would have to get a recognised expert to testify it isn't possible it was a pre-existing/latent defect. The law presumes the presence there of in the case of fault at less than six months.
Having sat on the other end of this the expensive lawyer summed it up as "you don't think the product is at fault? I see you cycled in this morning, does it help if you think the lorry should have given way? Just replace it."
I'm just going to repeat here that as well as clipping melting voice coils, a channel going DC also causes that. So I would definitely be asking the retailer to have a look at the amp. Or at the least using a multimeter to check to see if you've got DC across the output of one channel or a short in your speaker cables (less likely but possible).
I certainly wouldn't be connecting a new set of speakers until you're comfortable the other bits of the system are definitely OK.
Actually has anyone (the shop) asked what model of amp you connected them to? If not why not and how can they be so sure you have damaged them if they don’t know what you plugged them in to??
Actually has anyone (the shop) asked what model of amp you connected them to? If not why not and how can they be so sure you have damaged them if they don’t know what you plugged them in to??
my point is about the fault in question.
The only person to have attempted to diagnose the fault to date is the OP.
Given the description (it sounds properly burned) there’s close to zero chance it’s a manufacturing fault.
The onus is still on the retailer to demonstrate that rather than refusing to even assess it.
If it isn't a manufacturing fault, why isn't the other one equally "burned"? After several years perhaps, but under normal usage you don't blow out one brand new speaker in isolation after a month.
If it isn’t a manufacturing fault, why isn’t the other one equally “burned”?
If the fault has been caused by DC condition in the amp, it's totally possible for one channel to have DC on the output and the other be totally fine. Same for a fault condition causing excessive clipping. Regardless, if the retailer hasn't gone through these kind of questions and jumped straight to you've knackered it, I'd say that's very poor.
Don’t give up, but do be realistic about how much time is worth putting in, and do consider whether the amp might be underpowered or faulty. It’s the most likely cause. Speakers can overheat and fail in a few minutes.
You typically want your amp’s power rating to be 1.5-2.5x your speaker’s continuous power rating to avoid clipping (depending on how loud you want it, ie if you want to get the most out of the speakers).
I do also expect a retailer to handle this better. If this company isn’t helpful, I recommend Richer Sounds because IME they really recognise the importance of looking after customers and repeat business.
Impedance<br /><br />
It’s certainly what the OP is suffering.
Actually has anyone (the shop) asked what model of amp you connected them to?
I believe the OP bought the amp from the same place, so they ought to know. <br />Back when I used to sell hifi, I had a customer bring a speaker back because it was making a weird buzzing sound, and didn’t sound very good. I can’t remember what amp or speakers it was now, it’s getting on for forty years ago, but it would have been a Rotel, NAD or Trio, possibly a Pioneer, with something like KEF, B&W or Castle speakers, reasonably priced, good kit. Seems the customer was very fond of playing 12” singles of dub, reggae and the like, he’d overdriven the amp into clipping, and thoroughly trashed the bass/mid voice-coils. I left the boss to sort that mess out.
It seems unlikely the OP has done that, in my case, both speakers were trashed, not just one. Good luck with getting this sorted out, everything points to this being a faulty item, no question that I can see.
Unless, and this has just occurred to me, one of the output power transistors spiked for some reason? I’m no electronics or audio expert, but I’m sure I’ve heard of that happening on occasion.
Again again.
Inside of six months it is the retailer's responsibility to prove that the fault is anything other than a manufacturing defect.
All of this crap ^^ may be correct but it's irrelevant.
OP please just listen to Cougar. Send it back and exercise your statutory rights. It really is very simple.
I'm finding it hard to believe no one has yet asked the OP if he checked the directional speaker cable was correctly wired up! Tsk tsk.....
Something doesn't add up here. OP has asked for advice - got very sound advice and then seems to have chosen to do something rather abstract by contacting an importer (not even the manufacturer). All very odd. Is the OP in fact the retailer with a customer who has brought in a faulty unit???
As a non-hifi person, I would have expected that buying an amp and some speakers from a place who said that they suit each other (no idea if that's the case here) would imply that I couldn't break them simply by using the volume knob...
It seems that's not the case, but, well, WTF? I'd understand it if this was super expensive niche equipment (I guess you can break a Ferrari by getting in and pushing the 'loud' pedal if you don't know what you're doing!) But if this ended up going to a court, and the shop's stance was "the customer broke it by using the volume knob" then unless the arbiter were a hifi buff then they might well get short shrift.
Or is this general knowledge and I'm just really ignorant?
Not sure that (buying an amp and some speakers from a place who said that they suit each other) is the case, OP has said they bought speakers a month ago and also 'I bought over £1K of stuff from them' - not clear whether that was all at the same time.
If they were bought together even if not clear it was being bought for a single setup I'd have thought a decent retailer would have said 'erm....those speakers and that amp won't work together' - up to the buyer then to either rethink, confirm not a single setup, or whatever. A really decent retailer even if not bought together might remember what you bought before (decent Contact Management system for warranty, etc., would have this?) and advise. Be useful if OP could at least confirm that as while all the advice given (repeatedly) by Cougar is still correct, the sympathy and siding with the retailer is markedly different if the advice was
a/ Yes, that amp and those speakers will be great together
b/ Erm....those speakers and that amp won't work together
c/ Nice speakers, do you need help carrying them to the car
Also, is this going to be another 'Give me some advice.....NO NOT THAT ADVICE'
