Retailer refusing to accept faulty item for return

Your contract is with the retailer. Warranty and whether the manufacturer will/wont reject it should have little to do with it.

Within the first six months of purchase, burden of proof of fault lies with the trader I believe.

Yes but the retailer says if i return the item they will automatically reject any claim, so it leaves me stuck!

Let the retailer take a look.  If they reject it (sounds like they made their mind up already) call your card company and dispute the transaction.  The contract is between retailer and credit card co.

I spent months trying to get a refund from airline KLM when they stranded me in Central America at the start of covid. Dozens of calls to KLM. But just A few clicks on my credit card app and it was sorted.

Within the first six months of purchase, burden of proof of fault lies with the trader I believe.

This is correct, Sale of goods act I believe, if the retailer doesn't play ball just refer to credit card co & there are plenty of hifi dealers to go to, so worrying about upsetting one who has sold you some naff equipment is strange behaviour

I paid with my credit card which gives me more protection

Sounds like you are already at the point where you should be speaking to your provider about a chargeback. Have you got the bit about 'automatic rejection' of your return in writing? It's a clear breach of your statutory rights if they are not even going to look at them.

Yes but the retailer says if i return the item they will automatically reject any claim, so it leaves me stuck!

Then return the item and remind them of their legal obligations if they automatically reject the claim. Out of interest, do you think the retailer has a point? Do you think you may have damaged it? I ask because, if it was me, I'd be fighting this very strongly if I didn't believe I had done anything to damage it.

I don't think I would be worried about pissing off the retailer - you are the customer with a reasonable grievance.  If they don't play ball I certainly wouldn't consider them for future business.

@hot_fiat

Your contract is with the retailer.

If he bought it with a credit card, isn’t it with the credit company?

OP I’d go with the credit company. If there’s a possibility of the retailer losing access to one of the credit providers then it rather tends to focus their mind WRT customer service.

Ask them what would be required to overdrive the speaker and determine if you might have done that - if not, game on.

I'd ask them how they've come to their conclusion without inspection and if by coming to that conclusion without even bothering to look, to confirm in writing that they're ignoring you statutory rights and their obligations to them.

i dont want to piss off the retailer too much as i bought over 1k of stuff from them and i dont want to have any hassle with them in the future if any other issues arise

Feels like any hassles you'll have in future will be ignored as well meaning you'll have lost out twice!

If you've melted a voice coil that is only really done by overdriving or a faulty amp.

If either of these is the case then there are no grounds for return.

@ojom couldn’t it be a fault in the manufacture of the coil?

If they have only told you this verbally I would send an email to recap that they will refuse to treat this as warranty if you return them. Then I would contact the credit card company and avoid the sham return process.

If you return it they then have some power to say that you have broken them.

Where is @chiefgrooveguru when you need him?

Speaker has become stiff and there was a burning smell so im guessing the coil is knackered
Spoke to the retailer who says the speaker’s coil has been over driven

Have you opened it up to have a look? Sent pictures to the retailer?
Obviously I'm not saying you should open it up, but it all seems a little speculative without some proper fault finding having been done.

Does the impedance rating of the speaker match the setting on your amp?

@kramer after a month I'd think it highly unlikely. Voice coils are pretty reliable things. They don't tend to go faulty without external influence.

It's spectacularly dumb of the retailer to announce that they won't even investigate the fault before they pronounce you guilty.

The obvious question before you waste any more time on it is did you burn out the speaker, have you overdriven them, is the amp the correct rating and not clipping (i.e. low powered but driver excessively hard)?

If you can hand on heart say no to the above then send them back. If they refuse the return the start the small claims or credit card refund process.

The manufacturer will be able to tell what caused the damage to the voice coil. For example a faulty amp producing DC output will burn the coil at only one end.

Take it back, tell them you're returning it as faulty and, if they determine it isn't faulty you'll want to see how they have done that as at less than six months its legally assumed to be have been present at point of purchase so they need to prove it wasn't.

They will return it to the distributor etc for inspection or repair, you may be without it during this time or they might just immediately replace it out of stock (I suspect the latter) - they have a "reasonable" time to repair or replace it under the cra.

I'd suggest "reasonable time" in this case is going to be a couple of weeks at to account for transit both ways inspection and repair. Though I'd be surprised if it's isn't simply replaced.

If the retailer refuses to honor that process don't worry about rocking the boat, it's already plowing towards an iceberg anyway.

Cca section 75 shouldn't need to be anywhere near this and you'd need to have gone through a reasonable procedure before that anyhow. It isn't an "I can't be bothered" card, it's a "nothing else has worked [and visa have expensive lawyers]" card.

It isn't the SoGA, hasn't been for years, Consumer Rights Act replaced it in 2015.

As above, this isn't warranty, it's Consumer Rights Act- within 6 months the onus is on the seller to demonstrate it was not a manufacturer fault.

the retailer hasn't formally refused it yet, they've only said they will, you need to formally return it and they can then formally reject it - get their reasoning in writing, then small claims based on CRA (depending on retailer they might then seek mediation).

It’s spectacularly dumb of the retailer to announce that they won’t even investigate the fault before they pronounce you guilty.

So I'm reading this as you bought all the kit from them and they sold you an amp that is too "powerful" for the speakers, did they at any point suggest that you shouldn't turn it up too loud? I'm obviously unsure of the mechanism for this to happen but surely if a system is balanced, this shouldn't have been possible and it's an obvious product fault?

So I’m reading this as you bought all the kit from them and they sold you an amp that is too “powerful” for the speakers, did they at any point suggest that you shouldn’t turn it up too loud?

Cheers for all the replies

So system is set up correct as per the amp's manufactuer's guide lines and the speakers rated rms matches or is more than each channel's rms output on the amp (std rms, not max rms)

As far as im aware ive not over driven anything, rest of the system is working fine

Retailer said in their first email to me that they will automactically reject it if i return so basically saying dont waste your time and effort, so whatever i do they are going to say its my fault

Importer is not interested and say i need to deal with the retailer, which i get but if the retailer refuses to even take a look then surely the importer would be concerned about this and chat to the retailer about accepting the return or ask for me to send to them instead to inspect? or even just offer me a replacement at a discounted price?

Anyway ive been talking to a mate about this and he has just offered me his speaker set up at a too good to say no price as he has decided to upgrade so i may just cut my losses and sell the remaining speakers in the system to recoup some cash and not have to deal with this company

If you're going to buy a new set anyway, just send it back into the retailer to see what they actually do. 

If they have genuinely been overdriven and you've matched them to the amp (you say so, I believe you) there might be a problem with your amp - which is worth getting checked out before you put another set of expensive speakers on it... 

Right.

Your contract of sale is with the retailer. You have no relationship with the manufacturer. If the speakers have to be returned to the manufacturer then that is the retailer's problem to deal with.

Under CRA a fault within six months is deemed to be inherent. It is down to the retailer to prove otherwise. How they propose to do that without even seeing it, I do not know. This "blown coil" theory is nothing more than speculation at this point..

You are legally entitled to a repair or replacement (retailer's choice) in the first instance. They have to do this without unreasonable inconvenience to yourself (ie, they can't sit on it for six months).

I have had a lot of success with the phrase "just to be clear, can you confirm that you are refusing to honour my statutory rights?"

Other points. If you made the purchase wholly or partly on credit card, the card company is jointly liable. You will have recourse here, though I'd rather make the retailer roll over personally. I wouldn't worry about "pissing them off" - other retailers are available and would you want to give them any more money in the future based on this experience of their aftersales service?

... and if you've genuinely overdriven a £230 pair of speakers I imagine you'd know because you'd be on the phone going "pardon?" a lot. 😁

System has been tested with a replacement speaker (friend had an old one lying around) and no issues so far

Will have a think about what ill do next with regards to the retailer

Thanks for all the replies and advice

Oh, and,

It seems even if i could return it they will just say no to any warranty claim anyway

You need to be clear here. You are not making a warranty claim. You are returning them as faulty from new under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. These are very different things and it's an important distinction. A warranty is something offered optionally in addition to your legal rights under CRA.

Will have a think about what ill do next with regards to the retailer

If you have £230 you can just shrug and write off, let me know and I'll send you my bank details.

Seriously, fight it, send them back. It's easy for some eejit to write an email telling you to bugger off, it's a different matter entirely for them to actually break the law.

CougarFull Member… and if you’ve genuinely overdriven a £230 pair of speakers I imagine you’d know because you’d be on the phone going “pardon?” a lot. 😁

😂😂😂😂 Made me spill my coffee!

Anyway ive been talking to a mate about this and he has just offered me his speaker set up at a too good to say no price as he has decided to upgrade so i may just cut my losses and sell the remaining speakers in the system to recoup some cash and not have to deal with this company

I can't believe you are prepared to roll over like this if you genuinely believe that you haven't damaged the speaker through your own error.

f you have £230 you can just shrug and write off, let me know and I’ll send you my bank details.

LOL

the speakers rated rms matches or is more than each channel’s rms output on the amp (std rms, not max rms)

I'm no electrical engineer but it's that only half the story? What happens if you run 4 Ohm speakers on a 8 Ohm amp?

What happens if you run 4 Ohm speakers on a 8 Ohm amp?

resistance is futile.

There's no point considering it.

set up correct as per the amp’s manufactuer’s guide lines and the speakers rated rms matches or is more than each channel’s rms output on the amp (std rms, not max rms)

You can blow any set of speakers with pretty much any amp if you try hard enough, you as likely to damage speakers with an under powered amp as an over powered one. An under powered amp will run out of head room and send clipped sine waves to the speakers which will damage them pretty quickly.

Only you know if you've done something daft and damaged them.

If you haven't then don't accept the retailer refusing to deal with your return. If the refuse to deal then just hand the issue to you credit card company. Don't just roll over.

I have had a lot of success with the phrase “just to be clear, can you confirm that you are refusing to honour my statutory rights?”

This works with the likes of Ebuyer and other computer suppliers who can be sharks. Much back-pedalling when this is deployed.

I can see how it's possible that a coil could fail - if it were going to fail it would do so early on. If they are still wound with enamelled copper wire, that insulation could have had a flaw in it, or something like a bit of metal swarf got into the winding and after a few hours of being jiggled about it caused a short circuit, taking out some of the winding, reducing the resistance, increasing the current and causing it to burn out.

I'm not saying it's happened but it's plausible so worth pursuing.

An under powered amp will run out of head room and send clipped sine waves to the speakers which will damage them pretty quickly.

I thought decent amps had had soft clipping for years. My father’s NAD around 30 plus years ago did - precisely to stop speaker damage.

Do you have a log, written correspondence with the retailer did you pay by debit or credit card. If so, contact your card provider as they may be able to get the refund for you through a chargeback.

Do you think the tweeter or woofer is burned out.

The tweeter is relatively easy to damage with a clipping amp.  Woofer much less so.

What is the power rating of the amp ?  And the speakers?

If an off the shelf speaker is easy to blow/melt/otherwise damage at normal operating levels when following the installation instructions (as it appears the OP has done) then it does seem to point to not fit for purpose or factory flawed unless the OP has weaponised the system against his noisy neighbours and turned it up to 11 or got some fundamental compatability issue going on.

At £230 this presumably isn't some super tasty, ultra top end stuff that needs handling in a clean room by a certified and highly trained hifi buff to achieve the optimum something or other. . .

I'd be telling them that I'll be pressing both the credit card 'dispute' button, And If I need to I'll put a small claims court claim. And I'd be telling them that they have obviously made a prejudiced decision as they've not even seen the article, and that will be part of the small claims court evidence.
May as well buy off Amazon if this is the attitude of a local retailer. And they wonder why the high street is dying.

Do you have a log, written correspondence with the retailer did you pay by debit or credit card. If so, contact your card provider as they may be able to get the refund for you through a chargeback.

That is a long way down the line.

Does the op think he damaged it? No.
Back to the retailer, tell them they're returning it as faulty under the CRA and wait for them to fix or replace.
If they refuse to replace and can't prove it is the OP's fault, then maybe section 75, assuming the op has escalated the complaint within the company's procedure - no company you want to deal with is going to let £230 get any further than stage 2 of that procedure.

The credit card company has at this point nothing at all to do with it. Section 75 requires you to do the leg work first. It is nowhere near the top of the list of things to do.

It's also worth pointing out that if the speakers were bought as speaker £a, speaker £b, woofer £c, cable £d to a total of £230 section 75 may not apply anyway . The minimum value of the specific item (not transaction) is £100.
If they were bought as a set for £230 it'll, eventually, be covered.