I'm thinking about swapping out my front bay sash for UPVC. I know loads of people have had this done. What's been done with the internal wood? Did they cut out or swap for new wood?
Behind the photo below is a stone section in the front bay.
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Don't do it.
UPVC = Evil.
/thread
Mate are you sure you want to do that?
You'll get complete new upvc frames so no wood at all (if they do it correctly anyway)
Have you considered refurbing the sashes?
Also in Bristol, Victorian terrace bay like you. Price glass did ours and they fit out all new wood inside. From inside looks like it did before largely. The outside looks pretty good, lots of neighbours like them and we're in the yoga belt so these things matter. Price glass are a bit shoddy on customer service so I'd probably go cr Windows instead on friends reccs. In laws had wood and it was thrice the price. Refurnished was 1.5 times for single pane.
Don't listen to the 'artizans' 🙄
UPVC for the win every time!
Get the wood grain UPVC and you'll never know. We've had several people comment on our 'wood' sash windows. The look on their faces was priceless when told they are UPVC.
And ours were done by CR Windows when we were in Bristol.
One other point: If you've got a bath stone bay, get the paint off the stone and get the stone sorted first.
Oh, and the difference in noise is unreal. Was quite surreal at first, kind of deadened the house.
I win Marko, but totally concur!
Ah that's a shame. We had ours refurbished - we are also in Bristol. Please don't go upvc! But if you insist then I'd recommend Price Glass - they fitted some French doors in our old house and did a tidy job.
UPVC is just landfill. Completely unrecyclable and unjustified in the modern world.
I can recommend CR windows for UPVC sash, if going that route in bristol. That wood would be pulled out and replaced with UPVC.
I agree wood is a better option, if you can afford it.
UPVC is just landfill. Completely unrecyclable and unjustified in the modern world.
Well a quick google comes up with a load of hits on recycling UPVC.
I'm not anti-wood by any means, but how much paint (and labour and fuel etc) will you use on your windows over the years? And unless you're knitting your own paint out of cow dung and compost the paint you use will be a modern polymer/resin/oil based/titanium oxide chemist wet dream mix.How will you recycle that?
Our original UPVC windows (on our old house) are over 30 years old and still functional.
Marko
Thanks guys. I don't suppose you could send me photo of what the inside edge and sill looks like after replacement?
I dare say there are 'green' paints around - as a relevant point rather than an argument for wood. 🙂
I stand corrected upvc can be recycled but only 50% appears to be currently processed that way - the rest goes to landfill.
I agree paint is a problem although I am not sure it outweighs the arguments against Upvc manufacturing processes.
I ride to the paint supplier 😆
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This the sort of thing you want to see? The inside edge and sill will look like whatever finish you specify, that might be a thin inappropriate plastic trim, or a nice solid piece of timber machined to look the same or better than the one it's replaced. Sorry about the muck and divots on mine, the dogs love to jump and attempt to chase passing dogs and squirrels. I think we fitted ours about 11 years ago, bought them from [url= https://www.quickslide.co.uk/ ]https://www.quickslide.co.uk/[/url]. I see they now do timber ones too. The new units use spring balances instead of weights on strings so have less gubbins recessed in the wall, so a fair amount of 4x2 was used in packing out the replacements.
Ensure youre not in any sort of conservation area, worked at a house re roping old sash windows, then they sold and moved new owners then replaced with upvc, and the council stepped in and made them remove them.
I still smile when I see a C R Windows van and remember the advert jingle from the radio.
Not as good as the Beaver Maintenance vans I used to see. Only see Beaver Electricals now.
Speaking as someone actually in the trade I will say go for PVCU replacements, they are far more thermally efficient than wood,need less maintenance and don't need painting every 3 years. I would say that I personally would go for a timber finish inside as it looks more in keeping with the type of property, and also the thin PVCU trims that seem to be the norm nowadays look 'SHIT' and the seal lines will collect grime and probably go mouldy. My advice would be to steer clear of the nationals as you cant guarantee the workmanship of the installers they send, though they aren't all bad , this I say from experience. Go on recommendations of people you trust. And I will add that the company I work for recycle about 80% of all the PVCU we extract from old properties and 100% of our waste PVCU.
Also in Bristol and have the same quandary
Ours are the original windows and so around 130 years old. In a sentimental kind of way I'd love to keep them alive, but keep feeling that the cost of repainting alone is money down the drain.
The main thing stopping me going for upvc is that I haven't seen any that don't look rubbish. They are all fairly chunky and not keen on the 'wood effect' stuff. Would also consider aluminium but I'm sure the cost would go up.
Interested to see if anyone comes up with some good recommendations!
Woodgrain UPVC, why? Painted wooden windows don't have woodgrain unless they haven't been painted in ages and it's all flaked off!
Don't do it IMO. Your picture appears to show sound wood that needs a scrape, fill, sand, primer, undercoat and top coat. 4 days work and they will look like new - all for less than £50.
When I bought my Victorian Terrace I swapped out all the old wooden sashes for UPVC (Anglian Windows). They were very new at the time, I was the first house in the area to have them. Nearly 20 years on they're still in perfect condition, no fading, no draughts, air tight and excellent sound insulation. I've been to a few houses which have had wooden double glazed sashes fitted and the sound insulation is no where near as good. The uPVC units weigh a lot and really cut out noise from passing cars etc.
Thanks guys. I don't suppose you could send me photo of what the inside edge and sill looks like after replacement?
They fitted a wooden window sill and matching architrave around ours, so they matched the rest of the house.
You need to make that the structure of the bay will take the plastic windows. The frame of the sashes is usually part of the overall structure and the plastic doesn't do the same job.
As noted above, make sure you aren't in conservation area.
Our upvc sashes are conservation grade. Seriously, except for the sealed unit spacer, which you only really see side on, they look like originals. What you do lose is the wobbly glass which is a shame.
Our predecessors put in upvc units in the rear of the house (1926) when they extended it 15 yrs ago - front is wood frames/steel crittalls. Rear is 4 bay (2 with French doors) and 2 others. 3 or 4 units need replacing cos they mist up, the quality of the upvc sills is so poor it actually needs painting, and the design is such that several still allow draughts, and none of the french doors are sufficiently rigid as to close and/or lock cleanlym Oh, and a few screws into the upvc have stripped the plastic, fat chance of repairing that. If u can manage to get my OH past the 'not matching' thing if rather replace with timber and modern day crittals. In our previous place (edwardian)I refurbished one bay of sashes, we paid to have the others refurbished and one bay reinstated - here in n surrey/sw london sashes are likely to add to the character and value of a property.If you need to repaint them every 3 years you need a better decorator ! - 6-8 years (maybe more if you're lucky) is nearer the mark. Sashes are elegant, much upvc (tho some has improved) is often clumpy and frankly pretty awful imo. Upvc front doors are a complete travesty.
As mentioned above, very often wooden frames support the building structure, it's not uncommon to see upvc'd windows in a bay or brickwork that has sagged as a result. Upvc's often rubbish for security, it flexes, depending on its exact construction, to the cost of one neighbour last year- a lot harder to break through timber framing...neither stand up to a brick through the pane (as happened to a friend recently).
On a slightly different application, a nearby 20s place recently had the narrow steel, contrasting black crittals swapped out for thick white upc - absolutely killed the character of the place.
Woodgrain UPVC, why?
It's not the grain as such, more the way the grain diffuses the light - you don't get that 'flat' plastic look of standard UPVC windows. This only applies to white UPVC BTW.
As for UPVC front doors . . NO. . .NO... Evil things.
Hth
Marko
You need to make that the structure of the bay will take the plastic windows. The frame of the sashes is usually part of the overall structure and the plastic doesn't do the same job.
They just put in a timber frame between the units, if needed.
As noted above, make sure you aren't in conservation area.
uPVC sashes are permitted in Conservation areas it's how they look rather than what they're made of.
uPVC fake sash windows are not allowed on my building. Listed building / conservation area. Mind you I would never put plastic windows in. Horrid ugly things
Mind you I would never put plastic windows in. Horrid ugly things
uPVC is a much more appropriate material than wood. Easier to clean, doesn't require as much maintenance and with the modern stuff unless you are right up close to it, you'd struggle to tell the difference.
Wooden windows regularly last > 100 years, I'm not sure UPVC would get past 50.
(not that this would really bother the OP unless he's planning on staying there a very very very long time!)
Wooden windows regularly last > 100 years,
I'd think that unlikely unless you employed peopled to constantly maintain them, or lived in a relatively dry and benign environment.
We've just had ours done downstairs, juts need to get them done upstairs to finish it off.
The Chippy is coming back to do all the internals in a couple of weeks.
Happy with them so far..
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I'm not sure UPVC would get past 50.
Mine are 20 years old and look good as new. The main benefits (over wood) of better sound isolation, excellent heat insulation and zero maintenance have all proven themselves. Very happy with them, if they ever fail, I'd replace with uPVC again without thinking twice.
4 days work and they will look like new - all for less than £50
Contact details of your tradesmen please, at that day rate I'm having the whole place done.
"uPVC fake sash windows are not allowed on my building. Listed building / conservation area. Mind you I would never put plastic windows in. Horrid ugly things"
We're in a 'conservation zone', and any repairs/renovations visible from public areas must conform to a certain standard. This excludes most types of UPVC windows. Several residents who've had them fitted, have had to have them changed back to acceptable types. Over the years, we've got to know several tradespeople who do work at the top end of the trade, on the big posh houses in Hampstead and Highgate etc. None of them would ever touch UPVC unless it was to rip it out! We had our windows replaced from 100+ year old Victorian single glazed frames, with double glazed units (the surrounding woodwork was fine, so has remained.It's original). Anyone who thinks UPVC is 'better', has never seen high quality wooden framed windows installed. Ours cost 3+ times what even the best UPVC frames cost, but will last much, much longer and add value to the property (not that we're particularly bothered about that really). But barring some unforeseen catastrophe, our windows will be a once in a lifetime payment, and we won't ever be replacing them. As for all this 'thermally efficient' stuff; we've noticed a significant improvement in terms of heat retention as well as heat shielding, but that's down to the glass, not the frames. A lot of lower end UPVC units use cheap glass.
UPVC windows are cheap for a reason.
Ours cost 3+ times what even the best UPVC frames cost
That I doubt very much, think mine were £800 per sash, 20 years ago, which is roughly about £1300 now.
UPVC windows are cheap for a reason.
There are cheap UPVC just like there are cheap wooden. You get what you pay for.
've been to a few houses which have had wooden double glazed sashes fitted and the sound insulation is no where near as good. The uPVC units weigh a lot and really cut out noise from passing cars etc.
There are cheap UPVC just like there are cheap wooden. You get what you pay for.
yep, I think you'll find that the 'sound insulation' of wood is better on a like for like glass unit, assuming that the sashes are correctly fitted into their box. I expect you've looked at expensive PVC vs cheap timber.
As far as insulation goes, yes, PVC is better than wood, but not by a long way.
The reason for the 'wood grain' on pvc is to make it look like wood. So that to the casual observer it looks like timber. See also 'v' joint detail in the sash and style joints.
Paint is not as hardy as PVC clearly, but my windows need a touch up every circa 5yrs. To me, that's a price worth paying. I'd replace with wood ever time but then I am slightly biased - I may make one or two myself...
That I doubt very much, think mine were £800 per sash, 20 years ago, which is roughly about £1300 now.
You've actually just confirmed my calculations. Possibly even higher than 3x!8O
"There are cheap UPVC just like there are cheap wooden. You get what you pay for."
The most expensive UPVC units were still considerably cheaper than ours. But nowhere near as good. You're right; you do get what you pay for.
"I may make one or two myself..."
Good luck! I made a small above door single glazed unit a few years ago, and that was tricky enough! It was ripped out and replaced with an entire UPVC unit (beyond my control, the local HA insisted the works be done and allowed as part of their TA). The 'new' unit will need replacing soon as there are multiple issues, including door not shutting properly. I think a whole door frame is a slightly bigger challenge!
Good luck!
Last year I produced just shy of 10,000 wooden windows, of those, just over 1500 were sliding sash. It's not just me making them though!
There are some good pvc ones around, however, due to my utterly biased opinion, they are all rubbish due to the material used.
tinybits - MemberLast year I produced just shy of 10,000 wooden windows, of those, just over 1500 were sliding sash. It's not just me making them though!
Bloody hell! Your house must be massive!! 😆
Ah! 😀
I spent some time recently in a workshop where bespoke wooden framed windows etc were made. The level of quality of the workmanship was amazing. You'll never get that with mass-produced UPVC sections.
I open and close our sash windows every day even when it's cold out, just because it's such a joy to have something work so well. 8)
We have used Price Glass in Bristol for 2 houses and have always been great. The main thing unlike nearly every other company is that they will box in with wood on the inside and not horrible UPVC. Work has always been really good and prices are certainly competitive. When we get the back of our house double glazed I will certainly use them again. The first time around spoke to loads of companies and 90% seemed dodgy and gave the classic 50% managers discount if you sign up to today. Price Glass it was just a set price which was much lower than all the big companies.
Sash windows might look nice, but they are a pain and need constant maintenance. Get them out, nice new double glazing that will be tons warmer and more importantly fit and forget. Like to too short for draughty windows that need painting every couple of years.
they will box in with wood on the inside and not horrible UPVC
We have horrible pvc. Yes, it's not as nice as wood, but it's not horrible, it's "fine". Budget-wise the choice for us was casement or these sash, these are a big improvement over casement, not as nice as wood would've been.
Yes, as above I'm sure I could've paid "only" a hundred (or two) more per window for wood inside, but I've also substantial other renovation work to pay for, and there's never enough money for everything - compromises have to happen somewhere.
Replaced the rotten sash wood windows in my last house for bog standard UPVC. Looked better, house was quieter and no more condensation in the mornings. Money well spent IMO.
1909 terrace....23 years ago we replaced PVC with wooden windows bespoke and been varnished every two years.....replacing front windows with pvc as the u have rotted in place and the glass has blown. simply due to the faff factor.....look nice but not as thermal or sound efficient as pvc.....
Jsm - yes, near all the yoga studios
UPVC is awful. So many old houses on the street we live on have ripped out their timber sash and stuck in UPVC. They age terribly and look naff.
If you want low maintenance and cannot be convinced to stay with timber, I'd go aluminium bonded.
They age terribly
I'd say they age better than wood. Mine are 20 years old, as white as they day they were installed (once I wipe the dust off them). Wood would have needed painting at least twice during the same period. My front poor (wood) needs repainting at least every 5 years as it gets the sun and not found a modern Gloss which can cope with direct sun lights for more than 2-3 years before cracking.