[Closed] Religion - theological question

I dunno mate, I just want a Bugatti veyron.

I simply can't accept that it's all just an accident.

but is a limitation on your imagination a reason for anything?

but saying you reject that concept, doesn't make you tougher or stronger or more imaginative or more able, IMHO. Whether you believe or DON'T believe, doesn't make you a better person.

I'm gonna check my chilli, just in case...

Whether you believe or DON'T believe, doesn't make you a better person.

I say it doesn't matter what you believe, only what you do...

but is a limitation on your imagination a reason for anything?

How TF do I know? But how will I possibly find out, or even begin to understand, if I don't investigate?

To me, saying categorically that 'there is no God' is just a feeble cop-out. I think it takes more thought and mental gymnastics to try to figure if there actually is. Or not. Whatever the case may be. But none of us know for sure, so what's the harm in believing?

Anyway you're just an obtuse bastard, Barnes. I see you're better. Did you have some broth like I suggested?

but is reason a reason for anything?

"I say it doesn't matter what you believe, only what you do..."
I'll agree with that. That's really easy 🙂

To me, saying categorically that 'there is no God' is just a feeble cop-out.

and has anyone said that in this thread ?

so what's the harm in believing?

That depends on your actions based on that belief

Anyway you're just an obtuse bastard, Barnes. I see you're better. Did you have some broth like I suggested?

I think I ignored every single helpful suggestion made to me :o)

I dunno mate, I just want a Bugatti veyron.

And where would you put a bike, in that?

Just looks like a fat budgie. Like a car that's eaten too many pies.

[img] [/img]

And the seagulls in yer car park would ruin the paintwork...

I think I ignored every single helpful suggestion made to me :o)

Yes because you're probbly just happier being poorly and miserable.

I'm too tired for this. I'm off to watch my recording of CSI.

I think it takes more thought and mental gymnastics to try to figure if there actually is

so you're saying the effort depends on the conclusion ? If we [b]really[/b] try the answer is different ?

Yes because you're probbly just happier being poorly and miserable.

it comes down to belief again. I have more faith in my body's ability to mend itself than lemon/honey/broth/paracetamol/etc

Maybe.

titusrider - Member

My question is fundamentaly what makes the faithful believe their answers have more merit than the answers of other cultures?

Naivety? A harsher word would be ignorance? Expansionism? Power?

How about this?
[b]
Cryptic alert!
Cryptic alert![/b]

God (extreme) <--- perhaps the answer is in the middle(?) ---> Science (extreme)

If you look at both they are absolute in their answers so perhaps you want to consider these questions:

1) Question for God is where does s/he come from? Spontaneous appearance? How? Based on what?

2) Question for science is how far does one investigate in order to find the answer? Is it useful? i.e. the origin of life? The origin of universe? Can universe spontaneously appear like God?

🙂

I saw a documentary on the construction and engineering feat that took to make that car. Fascinating!

1) Question for God is where does s/he come from? Spontaneous appearance? How? Based on what?

isn't a god an it ? The question presupposes that a god has the same kind of existence as us. Might it not have always been?

so, before I go to bed, did we answer the question? what was the question?....

Tuesday 9 AM next week, we will gather for another theology/religion/bugatti debate. I hope to see you there in class. Especially you Barnes, you slacker latecomer.

I saw a documentary on the construction and engineering feat that took to make that car. Fascinating!

Still looks like a fat budgie.

simonfbarnes - Member

isn't a god an it ? The question presupposes that a god has the same kind of existence as us. Might it not have always been?

So you are saying s/he/it was once like us?

If that is the case then there are four possibilities:

1) God did not appear spontaneously.
2) Something created God or s/he/it derives from somewhere.
3) S/he/it was once like us.
4) A combination of the above.
🙂

So you are saying s/he/it was once like us?

no, I didn't mean that at all. I'm saying you cannot necessarily extrapolate from our mode of existence to that of supposed creator(s)

simonfbarnes - Member

no, I didn't mean that at all. I'm saying you cannot necessarily extrapolate from our mode of existence to that of supposed creator(s)

If that is the case then are we at fault for creating or associating "God" with our existence especially those that hold such belief?

🙂

I'm saying you cannot necessarily extrapolate from our mode of existence to that of supposed creator(s)

Man creates God in his own image....

but isn't religion an attempt to understand existence?

An "attempt"! Fail!!!

All my life I was under the distinct impression that most people didn't really believe religion/god, because the whole thing is patently flawed. Surely anyone with a brain can see that! I thought people just went along with it out of politeness, the need to conform with tradition and generally not wanting to rock the boat.

Later on in my life it came as a shock to me, realising that people do [u]actually[/u] believe all of this is true!

My father was a doctor and his father was a rector. My dad was a clever guy, he finished secondary school by 14 and was qualified as a doctor by 21. He lived in a pretty religious environment growing up. He used to send me and my sisters to Sunday school, so the indoctrination effort continued. It was wasted on me though.

My father once told me he believed in the Bible, except the virgin birth. He told me this belief was because of his medical knowledge. Well how many women do you know who had a baby without having sex, or artificial insemination? Science and medicine has proved that a single human being alone cannot reproduce - FACT! So how then did Mary manage to "press one out" without Joseph giving her his "divine seed"? Utter nonsense!

Now, you either believe the entire contents of the Bible, or you don't. You can't pick the bits you like and discard the rest. So I conclude that my father misunderstood the whole point of the exercise - [u]faith[/u]. Or was he just going along with the whole charade?

Religion has been, is and will always be a cause of conflict, death and destruction!

Only today, some mad Christian evangelists based in Florida are threatening to burn a pile of copies of the Quran/Koran on 9/11. The Iranian Muslim Clerics are saying this would bring about an uncontrolled response from Muslims around the world.

In the US, there is a great controversy about the building of a mosque overlooking ground zero and many Americans are questioning whether their president is infact a muslim. His speech in Cairo was certainly an eye opener.

I'm sure this bunch of evangelicals nuts in Florida have been motivated to make this statement because of the planned Mosque at Ground Zero. The building of a Mosque in this place is seen as an affront to Christian America by the Muslims who are gloating over their victory on 9/11. An insult to all who perished in the twin tower disaster, the survivors and the relatives.

Tensions are running high! People are exasperated as to why planning permission was granted and why the Muslim leaders would want to provoke people by siting their mosque so insensitively.

The leaders of the western world are being browbeaten into accepting the gradual Islamification of their countries and the quest for political correctness, for tolerance is allowing in an wholly intolerant religion. Check out Sharia Law and some of the stuff that goes on in one of the supposed civilized Muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia. E.G, public stoning to death of rape victims, the persecution of homosexuals and other the medieval practices od Sharia Law. Jews aren't too popular with Muslims either and the Koran encourages violence towards the people it doesn't like! Tolerance???? My arse!!! To think civilised countries are embracing and ecnouraging the spread of this vile poison!

Other conflicts include Northern Ireland, The Baltic war, a whole raft of wars in the Middle East. How about the crusades? THe list is endless, yet still we passionately subscribe to divisive claptrap, citing all that is good about a particupar faith. Nonsense!

I think the way forward for a peaceful society, if you want to be religious, is keep religion entirely to youself! No identifying features either. It should be an entirely private thing.

I personally like free thinking and to question the world around me. I make sense of "existence" by examining real things, real facts and how man has learned from experimentation. The methodology of science is rational and enables the human race to further it's knowledge of the world. Referring to a selection of dusty old story books does NOTHING for us. Morality CAN exist without religion!

Perhaps my life is lacking something because I have no sense of spirituality. I'm more about reality than ideals and unproven dark age dogma.

Religion, Yawn!

So many words.

Such little understanding.

Night all.

X

Spongebob - Member

Religion has been, is and will always be a cause of conflict, death and destruction!

This has been going on for centuries yet people continues with such practice so are people ignorance? Naive? Believe in expansionism? Want more power? Bet the answer is somewhere there.

The methodology of science is rational and enables the human race to further it's knowledge of the world. Referring to a selection of dusty old story books does NOTHING for us. Morality CAN exist without religion!

Perhaps my life is lacking something because I have no sense of spirituality. I'm more about reality than ideals and unproven dark age dogma.

Rational but will they turn extreme since they prefer the absolute even when knowledge itself is infinite, so the question is when do they stop and focus on the present good.

So what guides the morality in science?

🙂

p/s:

Only today, some mad Christian evangelists based in Florida are threatening to burn a pile of copies of the Quran/Koran on 9/11. The Iranian Muslim Clerics are saying this would bring about an uncontrolled response from Muslims around the world.

The clash of the titans begins.

Religion is a human invention. The symptoms of which are similar to mental illness.

If that is the case then are we at fault for creating or associating "God" with our existence especially those that hold such belief?

it's a hypothesis - any fault would be attached to behaviour predicated on the belief

Damn how did I miss this Ding Dong 🙄

To me, saying categorically that 'there is no God' is just a feeble cop-out. I think it takes more thought and mental gymnastics to try to figure if there actually is. Or not.

Whatever the case may be. But none of us know for sure, so what's the harm in believing?

The leaders of the western world are being browbeaten into accepting the gradual Islamification of their countries and the quest for political correctness, for tolerance is allowing in an wholly intolerant religion.

Science and medicine has proved that a single human being alone cannot reproduce - FACT! So how then did Mary manage to "press one out" without Joseph giving her his "divine seed"? Utter nonsense!

but the hypothesis is that the entire universe was created by an entity not constrained by the internal rules governing that universe. In that context a little genetic manipulation is trivial

You can't pick the bits you like and discard the rest.

who says so ? Do [b]you[/b] get to decided this for us ? I quite like some of the things Jesus is supposed to have said, regardless of whether he was real or fiction.

There are slightly larger holes in the theology that that.
What got me as a child was if god me me who made god? Something comes from nothing and at least we know we exist and have a farily good understanding of how we came into existence.

I'm very proud of you all, this was actually a faily mature coheasive discussion 🙂

The funniest thing is watching gatherings of 'religious leaders' all getting along so well

Either they all secretly hate each other, or they understand the subject better than you and can reconcile their respective positions.. hmm...

And when I sometimes sit and ponder the absurdity of Human existence, together with the preposterousness of the supposed vastness of the Universe, I simply can't accept that it's all just an accident.

Why not? Seems beautiful to me. The idea that I'm just something's experiment or pet feels awful to me. I don't want to go around with the weight of someone else's expectation and obligation on my shoulders. I want to choose my own path in this random universe. Fortunately I choose one that tries good to my fellow humans...

Even a cah has a point to it's life. Even an amoeba.

Why? Why should it? Free yourself!

There seems to be something a little Freudian about your point of view Fred 🙂

Anyway you're just an obtuse bastard, Barnes.

Amen. Oh bugger!

My question is fundamentaly what makes the faithful believe their answers have more merit than the answers of other cultures?

Tribalist tendencies in the human psyche. Same reason TJ insists that his ideas on blood sugar and insulin are the absolute only truth despite us pointing out further knowledge in certain situations.

I've noticed that when you're told something, especially from someone you respect or when you're young, you tend to internalise it and it becomes the truth. Even if the original fact was incorrect or incomplete. I noticed myself doing this when I was a kid. [b]It's actually quite hard to un-learn things.[/b]

Now, you either believe the entire contents of the Bible, or you don't. You can't pick the bits you like and discard the rest

Yes, you can. Why not? It's pretty easy to see that even if there is a God, mankind could still have written a pile of bolx and passed it off as the word of God, could it not?

I make sense of "existence" by examining real things, real facts and how man has learned from experimentation

Aww, bless 🙂

Wow.. mega catch-up posting 🙂

So many words and so many thoughts along with so many misunderstandings - no wonder we never really get much fruit out of these discussions.

Given the set of issues and complaints against "God" in this thread those a neutral mind may find [url= http://www.thereasonforgod.com/ ]this[/url] book interesting. It comes from a Christian perspective and having read it over the summer I thought it was an oipen and thoughtful discussion. Did it answer every question? No. Does it bat away the key criticisms? No, not really, but it does at least make you think.

Like a number of people on this thread I had a background of being brought up in a church environment. Like many people here I still have a number of questions that I find are hard to resolve. However, just because I don't understand everything doesn't mean I automatically label those who have a strong faith as deluded or misguided or basing their lives on fairy tales. Clearly those who advocate the concept of religion is a fairy tale believe themselves to be in full and absolute knowledge and are asserting that their belief is the superior and correct one. Anyone else see a tiny flaw in this? Perhaps the same one they are accusing the religious dimwits of possessing?

And no, not all religions are the same. Not by a long way so yes - at the very least most of them are wrong and at least one may be right. But which one?

And for the record, the current realistic view of hell is that it is simply a place where there is a complete absence of God and his characteristics. Probably not sulpherous burning and roasting for eternity. However, according to the christian view point, many of the attributes in people that appeal to us (charity, happiness, honesty, encouragement, blah blah blah) are all characteristics of God then expect hell to be an unpleasent experience. But you haven't been sent there - you have merely chosen to go there as you do not want any part of the "fairy story". So why get so upset about it? Given that you despise God so much (although you don't actually believe he exists) then surely it's not a big deal for you anyway as you are going to be far happier in a place where he isn't (if he does exist).

And it's not that big a deal really, is it, for people who feel they have an answer to life's meaning to want to tell you about it? You have an option to say you're not interested, thank you, and move on. For them it is a life changing experience and they feel they cannot help telling others. Not entirely unlike everyone who posts pictures of their new bike / build here really is it? I don't see many replies on those posts telling people to leave them alone and keep their bike building / purchasing efforts to themselves. Yes, a loose and tenuous example, but not totally dissimilar.

Oh well, more fuel for the fire.... 😉

I hate the way internet conversations keep going while I'm not around!

erm...I think the indignation of a materialistic community and their assertion that spirituality (used in preference to doctrinal religion) is evidence of weak mindedness is unhelpful at best, if I think a self starting universe is rationally unlikely and my perception of reality has room for the divine then this can be intellectually rigorous - some clever people believe in god lots of idiots don't and so on.

A consciousness of a spirituality within humanity is not without its experiential evidence - now this may be delusional, I'm sure a lot of people think it is - but the counter point is the assertion that any kind of reality can be genuinely perceived by a human 'machine'. Your existence at all is difficult to prove and may well be delusional, this conversation may not be happening outside of my own consciousness. Our minds trick us, we know this to be true as far as anything is true. Our senses are unreliable and so we pick an experience that we choose to validate over another, I believe a spiritual experience based on my perception of the universe around me in the same way I choose scientific understanding of other aspects of my world view. The Modernistic 'my way or the highway' of some atheistic and religious dogma is simply not indicative of the human experience or the validity of human perception.

The old morality chestnut is perhaps an example - Morality is possible for an atheist but is purely subjective and concepts of right and wrong are only dependent on the viewer's opinion. e.g. If I leave a man to drown in a river it is deemed morally repugnant by society even if I'm following my evolutionary instinct to preserve my genetic code over another's. In fact leaving the man to die is, surely in a materialistic universe, praiseworthy.

Atheism can have all the morals it wants so long as it owns up to the understanding that it doesn't matter - being nice is the same as not being nice, existentialism, liberalism and nihilism have already been through all this why do we keep looking for absolute authorities like a gang of Modernists? Atheists have their comfort blankets too...

Molgrips - being 'moral' because it makes you feel good is a form of gyroscopic liberalism so good on you for atheistic rigor! Now you just need to get rid of the hang ups about not harming another and all that nonsense and we can crack on!

Spongebob - There is a great tradition of interpreting scriptures (of all kinds). Why do you insist you can't pick bits of the bible? Biblical inerrancy and infallibility have been theological hotbeds for hundreds, nay, thousands of years. Why do we suddenly stop thinking about an experience when you say so?

All religions interpret their holy books, that's why there are sects, cults and schisms. You sound more fundamental than most religious people I know! 😀

Top post, Monkeeknutz - one of my favourite on the subject!

if I think a self starting universe is rationally unlikely

Hmm, careful there on the use of terms like 'rational' or 'common sense' in the context of extreme science. The kind of things being talked about are so far from the every day experiences that define those terms that they are completely useless. Saying that you don't believe in a self-starting universe because, "well, it's just silly, isn't it?" is just.. well.. silly 🙂 Quantum mechanics goes against all common sense too, but that's exactly the point. It's NOT common sense for a reason!

Now you just need to get rid of the hang ups about not harming another and all that nonsense and we can crack on!

Heh.. 🙂 well I [i]choose[/i] not to harm others. Why? Well let's see.. I believe that we have a biological imperative to help others in our tribe ie it's hard-wired into our brains and (mostly) we get a psychological reward. Then, being intellectually rigorous we can see that there's no difference between those people in our tribe or family and those in the rest of the world. So therefore, we need to be good to others.

The intellectual rigour step is sadly lacking though in many people. Which is why we have wars, road rage and acrimonious STW arguments.

[url= http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/03/18/barnabas-fund-exposes-media-coverup-of-massacres-of-christians-in-nigeria/ ]Now let's sweep the violence and death caused by religion under the carpet.[/url]

I bet the 15000 rapes in the Democratic Republic of Congo has got something to do with religion, but you can bet, just like other reports of religious conflicts (e.g. Northern Ireland), the root cause will be swept under the carpet.

How could we possibly undermine the credibility of religion!

Given the set of issues and complaints against "God" in this thread those

Most of the complaints refer to religion rather than "god".

Clearly those who advocate the concept of religion is a fairy tale believe themselves to be in full and absolute knowledge and are asserting that their belief is the superior and correct one.

Well that's a rather large assumption. Whilst I would not presume to speak for all athiests I would respond by saying that I have considered religion and come the conclusion that on balance, no I don't beleive in god. I do not "know" for certain that there is no god (it is impossible to prove such a negative) but I have come to the conclusion on the basis of all the information that I have that I don't believe. Certainty about whether there is or is not a god is something normally reserved for theists.

many of the attributes in people that appeal to us (charity, happiness, honesty, encouragement, blah blah blah) are all characteristics of God then expect hell to be an unpleasent experience

Whist certain religions may have assimilated such characteristics into their belief structure, it has never been demonstrated that religion is a requirement for the existance of such characteristcs.

Given that you despise God so much (although you don't actually believe he exists) then surely it's not a big deal for you anyway as you are going to be far happier in a place where he isn't (if he does exist).

Again, speaking for myself I do not despise god as it is logically impossible to despise something that I do not believe exists. I am also unaware of any athiest who despises god. Religion yes, but then that actually exists.

And it's not that big a deal really, is it, for people who feel they have an answer to life's meaning to want to tell you about it? You have an option to say you're not interested, thank you, and move on. For them it is a life changing experience and they feel they cannot help telling others.

As far as I'm concerned people are free to believe whatever they want, however no-one is free to not have their beliefs challenged or even mocked.

Yes, a loose and tenuous example, but not totally dissimilar.

Except it is totally dissimilar. This is a mountain bike site. It should be anticipated that people post pics of their bikes. If someone randomly statred talking to me about bikes in the real world, frankly I'd consider them to be a bit of a nutter.

Morality is possible for an atheist

Oh good - I feel so much better... 😈

A few of the last posters-with-faith fail to recognise the implicit condescension in their stated points of view towards those who do not share their beliefs. But then this is enshrined in the bible. "No one will come to god excpet through me" etc etc.

A better question might be how many religious folk would be moral if they did [i]not[/i] have a set of external rules to abide by, and why so many, espescially in religious leadership positions, fail so spectacularly to manage to behave decently to other humans.

Judged by rational endpoints other than music and architecture, I'd have to award religion a "FAIL"

Spongebob.. seriously. Wars and violence are caused by PEOPLE using religion as an EXCUSE.

If there was no religion, there'd still be violence.

Plus, the real cause of the Troubles in NI isn't religion, it's cultural background. THEM and US.

Clearly those who advocate the concept of religion is a fairy tale believe themselves to be in full and absolute knowledge and are asserting that their belief is the superior and correct one.

I would have said it was more of a matter of observing that religion was no better supported by fact than any fairy story

beliefs challenged or even mocked

Challenged, yes. Mocked no. Mocking is making your own amusement at someone else's expense, and is not nice. So it's out, in my book. Unless you have an understanding with the other party and you know they don't/won't mind.

Btw there's two arguments going on here

1) about the creation of the world
2) about morality

They're linked, but really not the same thing.

Given that you despise God so much (although you don't actually believe he exists)

as I was going up the stair
I met a man who wasn't there
he wasn't there again today
oh how I wish he'd go away...

Monkeeknutz - Member
Spongebob - There is a great tradition of interpreting scriptures (of all kinds). Why do you insist you can't pick bits of the bible? Biblical inerrancy and infallibility have been theological hotbeds for hundreds, nay, thousands of years. Why do we suddenly stop thinking about an experience when you say so?

If you believe the bible is the word of god then you are not free to pick and choose while still claiming to be following the religion set down in the bible.

You would be changing the wishes/commands’ passed on and thus be creating your own new religion.

Interpretation is a different thing to picking & leaving. It’s the interpretation that leads to fundamentalism not the picking & choosing.

If you believe the bible is the word of god then you are not free to pick and choose while still claiming to be following the religion set down in the bible.

which religion is that ?
Juadaism, Catholic, Protestant, Moslem ? They all use the bible, they all choose the bits they use

If you believe the bible is the word of god then you are not free to pick and choose while still claiming to be following the religion set down in the bible.

And if you don't?

You can still be Christian and not believe in biblical inerrancy...

Clearly those who advocate the concept of religion is a fairy tale believe themselves to be in full and absolute knowledge and are asserting that their belief is the superior and correct one. Anyone else see a tiny flaw in this?

I believe both sides are doing this. However only one side relies on faith due to a lack of evidence. If you wish to believe everything that cannot be proved to be false [which is everything you make up and that is pretend and everything that has no evidence] then you really are a fool and yes the alternative really is superior. Is the belief in fairies equally valid to a belief in evolution then despite the vast quantities of evidence for one and the lack for the other? Surely your belief should be a good match of reality based on facts, evidence , data, observation etc.

at the very least most of them are wrong and at least one may be right.

However, according to the christian view point, many of the attributes in people that appeal to us (charity, happiness, honesty

Yes all atheists lack these qualities we are all miserable and don’t give to charity. The argument we get morality from god is weak one. Either there is a reason why things are right/moral or god chose morality on a whim and you just follow these edicts. If it is the former anyone can see the truth reason of this , god, atheist, believer. Adams was the philosopher behind this IIRC

And it's not that big a deal really, is it, for people who feel they have an answer to life's meaning to want to tell you about it? You have an option to say you're not interested, thank you, and move on

if I think a self starting universe is rationally unlikely

Certainly bright people believe in religion. IME most religious people also tend to live more moral lives than most atheists [ though they have less fun]. However their belief is shaky, unfounded and [ despite the you cannot prove a negative] just wrong. if I want to assert that there is an unseen force that controls us it is reasonable that others ask me to provide the evidence rather than just say you cannot prove I am wrong.

which religion is that ?

does it matter?

If you have the rules to being a follower of a god and choose not to follow some of those rules your really not going to be closer to heaven than if you followed non of the rules. - the only bit of free will is the choice to follow the rules or not. once you've signed up you can't leave bits out.

Wars and violence are caused by PEOPLE using religion as an EXCUSE.

Quite right, no-one has ever suggested otherwise. It has however been said that there have always been good people in the world doing good things and bad people in the world doing bad things but for a good person to do bad things takes religion. Granted that's an extreme veiw point but it is not without merit.

Plus, the real cause of the Troubles in NI isn't religion, it's cultural background. THEM and US.

Well given that the Them and Us divide is based on the divide between Catholics and Protestants then I'm going with yes that conflict most certainly has it's roots in religion.

once you've signed up you can't leave bits out.

You can still be Christian and not believe in biblical inerrancy

yes i'd agree, yet you can't be a Christian and not believe in biblical infallibility.

or how would you know which bits are right?

the only bit of free will is the choice to follow the rules or not. once you've signed up you can't leave bits out.

according to you, the religion or god(s) ?

Well given that the Them and Us divide is based on the divide between Catholics and Protestant

And why are there Catholics and Protestants? Because English Protestant landowners were installed in NI at the expense of Catholic Irish...

So it's Catholic v Protestant, but it's also English v Irish, landowner vs peasant, and incomer vs native.

Which of those highly emotive lines of conflict is worse?

On the subject of the bible, I suspect most thoughtful religious people think that the bible may have been the word of God at one point, but what we currently use is a very long way from the original text. For a start, half of it's been cut.

so you can bleieve it is the word of god[ who is always correct] yet it has errors in it but it is completely true and accurate in matters of faith /practice.... nope cant see anything wrong with that view.

What?

EDIT:

What I am saying is that Christians can debate on what the real meaning is contained within the text of the bible. Because that real meaning may have been obscured.

Dunno what the problem is there.

me:which religion?

well having said:
"If you believe the bible is the word of god then you are not free to pick and choose while still claiming to be following the religion set down in the bible."
one might suppose you meant a particular one and not just "any"

yes i'd agree, yet you can't be a Christian and not believe in biblical infallibility.

I think Catholics are suppose to believe in [b]papal[/b] infallibility, but there are many other brands of Christianity, and for example Catholics ignore the laws of Kosher set down...

Yeah, but the question is:

What tyres for catholicism?
😀

And why are there Catholics and Protestants? Because English Protestant landowners were installed in NI at the expense of Catholic Irish...

So you agree that it is to do with religion then.

So it's Catholic v Protestant, but it's also English v Irish, landowner vs peasant, and incomer vs native.

Which of those highly emotive lines of conflict is worse?

Well given that it all started around religion I'm going with that being the worst as it seems to have been the root cause.

On the subject of the bible, I suspect most thoughtful religious people think that the bible may have been the word of God at one point, but what we currently use is a very long way from the original text. For a start, half of it's been cut.

Right, I'm confused now. If the bible now [i]isn't[/i] the word of god then why do most christians put so much faith in it?

Religion is about the imposition of a set of rules on the unruly. Easiest to do it as a club whereby if you're in good stuff happens and if you're out you are socially, politically and economically excluded. Fantastic in its simplicity and very frightening how so many fall for it and seem to need it even now.

Personally my beliefs are mine and mine alone. One of them is that anyone who endeavours to inform me of or persuade me that their beliefs have more validity than mine is automatically by that token someone to be avoided.

Ok so.

To me, the problem I have is with the reification of the concept of 'God'. We see that various religions treat the portrayal of God in different ways; Christian art depicts God as a male Human figure, Hinduism has loads of weird looking creatures, and Islam forbids any depiction of Allah.

But creating an image of God is understandable; how do you explain the Unseen to people, in a manner they might understand? To me, 'God' is not something that can be quantified, reified or reduced to any form which is instantly understandable. I think most religions work on this basis too, it's just that their depictions and concepts are suggestions, maybe, of what such a being could be. Perhaps it's just impossible for collective Humanity to have a God/s that are beyond the limit of our imagination and reasoning. Maybe we need something tangible, something 'real'.

Funny, that Atheists need 'God' in order to be able to argue with others, and sell their books....

[url=

video - The lunacy of Sharia Law[/url]

Don't worry, it's not graphic.

Do some digging about Islam, then tell me we should be tolerant towards it.

It's the stuff of the Dark Ages and THERE IS NO PLACE FOR IT IN A CIVILIZED SOCIETY!

Do some digging about Islam, then tell me we should be tolerant towards it.

I grew up in a Muslim family, and live in an area with lots of Muslim people. The vast majority are nice. My own personal experience of Islam is quite positive overall, as is my experience of Christianity and other religions.

Mind you, I don't read paranoid hysterical right-wing bullshit newspapers, or listen to phobic crankpots, so what do I know, eh?

Spongebob; you speak of tolerance, yet you seem completely intolerant towards Islam.

Do you mind if we laugh at you?

Funny, that Atheists need 'God' in order to be able to argue with others

not god, but the concept of god. And certainly one could discuss atheism without mentioning gods, any more than one would need to mention custard or knitting...

And certainly one could discuss atheism without mentioning gods

How?

[b]

atheism |?????iz?m|
noun
the theory or belief that God does not exist.

Surely, atheism requires that others believe in a concept of God, in order to exist as a philosophy?

Christian art depicts God as a male Human figure

This is because "God created man in his own image". So if that comes from the infallible section of the bible god looks just like us.

Hopefully for his sake not too much like me. 😀

So if that comes from the infallible section of the bible god looks just like us.

FYI Genesis has god making us in [b]his[/b] own image 🙂

Surely, atheism requires that others believe in a concept of God, in order to exist as a philosophy?

the 'a' means 'without' - so without a theory of god
you can just make your own mind up about how to behave without worrying about jujus. I hasten to add that I have abandoned strict atheism as conventionally interpreted as too dogmatic, but in practice the difference is negligible

atheism is a belief like any religion.

if anything to be a committed atheist is nuts. why believe something that is as yet unprovable does not exist. much better to keep your options open. (got to admire the commitment though). which brings us nicely back to pascal's wager.

So if that comes from the infallible section of the bible god looks just like us.

FYI Genesis has god making us in his own image

which is what i quoted.
therefore we must look like him, & him like us.

if anything to be a committed atheist is nuts

well, I guess that's why I'm willing to accept any number of gods from zero to infinity and ignore them all equally

FYI Genesis has god making us in his own image

Which one of us in particular looks like Mr Beardy ?

which is which is what i quoted.

sorry, I misread you 🙂

SimonFBarnes should be committed if you ask me....

[i]atheism is a belief like any religion.[/i]

No it isn't, it's the ABSENCE of a belief.

which brings us nicely back to pascal's wager.

If your best reason for believing in god is pascal's wager then your faith must be very weak indeed.

we've established that believing in gods doesn't require one to be religious. Actually I'm inclined to think that [b]we[/b] are the gods.