the looser side will have the bigest toys out pram moment ever,probably make the riots in england look like a playschool tantrum, as some have a lot to gain and some a lot to loose.
Basically it comes down to a choice - the status quo or Salmond's vision of how things will be - one that comes with zero Guarantees in place around such fairly critical elements as currency, EU, Finance sector and oil.
I might be tempted to vote yes if I believed Salmond can deliver everything he says he can, but in reality I know he won't and so for me its a definite no - to much risk involved. Much of it is pie in the sky thinking. The current arrangement isn't perfect, but it could be much much worse.
Agree about the Yes campaign really getting on my nerves. They're making out that a no vote is unpatriotic, plus alot of nastiness creeping in.
I've just renewed with Scottish Power.
Would my bills change if the Scots have their own currency?
the looser side will have the bigest toys out pram moment ever,probably make the riots in england look like a playschool tantrum, as some have a lot to gain and some a lot to loose.
Really? 😆
I might be tempted to vote yes if I believed Salmond can deliver everything he says he can, but in reality I know he won't and so for me its a definite no - to much risk involved. Much of it is pie in the sky thinking. The current arrangement isn't perfect, but it could be much much worse.
Funny thing is though, as pre-election pledges show, westminster never deliver on their promises...
Salmond isn't acting alone, there is a nation of skills and talent who can affect positive change.
No doubt there were folk saying that the potential risks of the internal combustion engine or electricity were too great to develop; risk is necessary for progress...
Food for thought:
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get the other side to campaign for what you want.
He didn't. He's not that clever.
tpbiker - MemberBasically it comes down to a choice - the status quo
Sorry, are you under the impression that anyone's offering the status quo?
For me its just about how we want to be governed.
Scotland will be absolutely fine as an independent state, either that or every other small nation is a miracle.
Ignore the financial soothsayers on the other thread, most of them can't vote anyway and defining the referendum on such narrow parameters almost misses the point entirely.
If you want things to carry on the way they are then vote "No"
If you want us to govern our own country then vote "Yes"
That's the decision you have to make, everything else is just window dressing.
Good luck with your choice
Basically it comes down to a choice - the status quo or Salmond's vision of how things will be
Sorry, but wrong on both. The status quo isn't on offer, if there's a No vote then there's a lot more austerity cuts on the way and the Barnett formula is probably being scrapped so even less funding. Whereas a Yes vote isn't an endorsement of Salmond or the SNP, it's a vote to give us the chance to pick our own government. An independent Scotland might go and vote for the Tories - unlikely but possible.
ohnohesback - MemberI'm not sure if you've been alive enough time for this, but think back to the eighties when Thatcher used Scotland as a laboratory for the Poll Tax; introducing it a year earlier, just because she could. Or consider what will happen after a No vote when Cameron is back in Downing Street for another five years; imagine what he will do...
An independent Scotland could avoid this.
Never again... Vote Yes.
That might actually be the funniest thing I've read so far about the referendum 😀
but, yes, you should definitely base your vote on what a dead woman did 30 years ago.
there is no status quo.
it's not a vote for salmond.
if devomax was an option it'd be on the paper.
[quote=argyle ]there is no status quo.
it's not a vote for salmond.
if devomax was an option it'd be on the paper.
+many.
It's incredible that we can be this close to polling day and yet so many people still don't understand what the choices are. Maybe #PatronisingBTlady is more representative than BT got credit for.
the ploy still seems to be working... 😆wrecker - Member
get the other side to campaign for what you want.He didn't. He's not that clever.
The status quo isn't on offer, if there's a No vote then there's a lot more austerity cuts on the way and the Barnett formula is probably being scrapped so even less funding.
good old "project feart" again
nothing that is different is currently on offer at the moment, anyone who says different is making it up. There's lots of speculation but no offer.
For me its just about how we want to be governed.
Well put Rich. That pretty much sums up how I've developed my thinking over the last month.
I was 'No', but after reading a few books about the subject, pouring over a lot of guff written by the MSM, my views have shifted. There is no story for the MSM to follow the No campaign, as they are not actually offering anything. The Yes campaign therefore get all the attention, as they can be attacked by the No, for suggesting an alternative vision, which in many cases, cannot be proven emphatically. This is simply the reality of a decision such as this - you cannot have all the facts prior to making the decision, but have to make it on a probability.
Once, I'd got my head around that one, I quite quickly changed to Yes.
The Westminster government is more likely to be shifting further and further to the right in the future, and the spending in Scotland has been heavily protected in the last few years, with the full knowledge of the referendum looming.
I'm quite excited by the prospect of Scotland being able to create its own future.
@Shackleton - +1 I too worry about the evangelical nature of the Yes voters in the same way I do for religonists. Their attritional behaviour smacks of someone unwilling to engage and I see this in AD' exasporation on the TV debates. I too only seem to see defaced "No" banners etc. Can't say that I personally know anyone in the Yes camp whose intelect and experience I respect.
@Legend +1 - Too many Scots live with a Chip on their shoulder, Thatcher got it wrong, not because she "trialled" it on the Scots, just because she was wrong about the whole thing, it make perfect adminstrative sense to try something out - Oh and lets not forget, she/they lost that one. I will never grasp, why people can't see that as a triumph of social values and be proud of it. Instead too many run around thinking "when's it going to happen again?" We are not singled out like some kind ethinc group for experiments.
I don't like the idea of breaking away but the notion that we can make things better is a powerful one, I do however then worry about why we can't do this as a Union, the people who live in England, Wales and NI also deserve better, like us.
big_n_daft - Membergood old "project feart" again
come on, it was funny the first time..587th, not so.
the ploy still seems to be working...
If it makes you feel better 😆
if devomax was an option it'd be on the paper.
Absolutely. You doubt it? Vote no and find out......
Isn't it Green scarf "Yes" Blue scarf "No"
I thought it was something about handkerchiefs in the top pocket?
If you believe a party that's campaigned for 80/90 years on a separatist agenda, all of a sudden preferred devo max. Carry on. 😆wrecker - Member
the ploy still seems to be working...If it makes you feel better
If you believe a party that's campaigned for 80/90 years on a separatist agenda, all of a sudden preferred devo max
No, I don't. I think Salmond wants independence. This talk of him being crafty and secretly wanting devomax is bollocks.
I'm not sure either side. I won't get a vote anyway, being a Yorkshireman, but I'm wondering if Scotland gets a YES will we see other areas pushing for a referendum? Wales? Cornwall as was mentioned before and maybe even the likes of Yorkshire? I'm sure I read somewhere this was being considered before, was there a referendum for some sort of devolution in Cornwall with a drastically low turnout which caused them to cancel similar ones in Yorkshire? I may have made that up.
Either way, I'm sure I'm no different to loads of other people outside the south east thinking "shove some funding northwards". They're still talking about things like new runways or new airports, and then trying to help cities in the north by helping the people get to London quicker on the train.
Hence my point.wrecker - Member
No, I don't. I think Salmond wants independence. This talk of him being crafty and secretly wanting devomax is bollocks.
ianmoody - Member
I'm sure I read somewhere this was being considered before, was there a referendum for some sort of devolution in Cornwall with a drastically low turnout which caused them to cancel similar ones in Yorkshire? I may have made that up.
You're probably thinking of this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_England_devolution_referendums,_2004
Hence my point.
And mine......
come on, it was funny the first time..587th, not so.
Yes supporters need to stop making up stuff about how they are going to be punished for the referendum or about changes block grants etc etc
I use it sparingly, just like a Scot would 😉
I should have maybe read your first post a bit more closely! 😳 Although I do think it was very shrewd on Salmonds part.wrecker - Member
Hence my point.And mine......
The way I see it it is impossible to be sure either way as a lot of the key points can only be known after the referendum and after a long negotiation process . The yes campaign are basically asking you to take a punt . But I can see why people think it is a punt worth taking as there a lot of things wrong in the UK and a chance to say thanks very much but we're going to try things a bit differently is something I can understand . But there is this nagging doubt at the back of my mind saying it's a stupid idea
I've just renewed with Scottish Power.
Would my bills change if the Scots have their own currency?
scotish power is the trade name of the foreign company that takes all the profits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Power
Food for thought: "10 million could buy"
Yes, but when the sums were done it came in costing just £1.2 million
So the alternative strapline for the poster would have to be
completed at a tenth of the cost Labour quoted!
Public projects delivered on-time and under budget: Welcome to Tory Britain
Why wouldn't Westminster cut the Scottish block grant after a No vote?
Food for thought: "10 million could buy"
No it couldn't, wouldn't even pay there salary and other employment costs for a year.
ohnohesback - Member
Why wouldn't Westminster cut the Scottish block grant after a No vote?
Why would they? If your predicting the future give us some reasons. Unless you have crystal balls you don't know what will happen. Telling people that it will be really bad if they vote no and you will all get spanked isn't really a decent argument.
The only decent reason I have heard from an ex pat Scotsman was he didn't think it would be better but it at least they could **** it up themselves. Not exactly compelling reasoning.
My suspicion is that the block grant has been afforded protected status in the run up to the referendum, to keep public dissatisfaction in Scotland with Westminster to a minimum. Certainly, when compared to the NW of England, where we used to live, the councils there have had their funding slashed in the last few years, since the Tory/Lib govt came in, mostly because of area based grants being removed completely. Recruitment freezes and encouraged early retirement are the norm in councils across the north of England now, whereas in Scotland they are still recruiting as normal, with most teams around the area my Mrs has moved to fully staffed (and unknown phenomenon where she used to work).
So, why has the Barnett formula remained unchanged at the same time grants to elsewhere have been cut? Will it remain unchanged in the near future? I doubt it, but of course you will never get a straight answer about this issue.
I think Scottish Power might be owned by a Spanish company ? So it is the euro you need to watch.
Basically it comes down to a choice - the status quo or Salmond's vision of how things will be
Sorry, but wrong on both. The status quo isn't on offer, if there's a No vote then there's a lot more austerity cuts on the way and the Barnett formula is probably being scrapped so even less funding. Whereas a Yes vote isn't an endorsement of Salmond or the SNP, it's a vote to give us the chance to pick our own government. An independent Scotland might go and vote for the Tories - unlikely but possible.
On point one, if you stop being pedantic you know fine well what i mean by status quo. Likewise your comments on further austerity and the barnett formula are pure speculation, nothing more.
On point two, the no voters aren't against the right for us to govern ourselves or pick our own government, we're against the split from the UK or more importantly the perceived disadvantages that comes with it. Salmond's vision of independence which he is trying to sell paints a very rosey future, Peoples decisions will clearly be greatly swayed by whether they beleive him or not. I don't and as such I'm a no.
It's incredible that we can be this close to polling day and yet so many people still don't understand what the choices are.
Being unable to choose is very different to not understanding the choices. The main problem is, the choice has to be made based on contradictory claims, predictions and assumptions made by people - on both sides - who I instinctively don't really trust.
Vote YES, should reduce the likelihood of future Labour governments for the rest of us.
Vote YES, should reduce the likelihood of future Labour governments for the rest of us.
I think this is why there's so much vitriol on the Currency thread from non voters. They're scared that Scotland leaving will leave them with Tory governments for a long time. Maybe if that does happen they'll start to examine why we want to go our own way and campaign for either a more representative election process or more powers for local government.
[quote=thegreatape ]
It's incredible that we can be this close to polling day and yet so many people still don't understand what the choices are.
Being unable to choose is very different to not understanding the choices. The main problem is, the choice has to be made based on contradictory claims, predictions and assumptions made by people - on both sides - who I instinctively don't really trust.
True - but I was referring to the point that neither Devo Max nor Alex Salmond are on the voting slip.
Fair enough 🙂
The main problem is, the choice has to be made based on contradictory claims, predictions and assumptions made by people - on both sides - who I instinctively don't really trust.
That element of instinctive dis-trust sits with me as well.
From an early stage I've thought that too many answers given to reasonable questions asked have been along the lines of "We'll address that after vote" without really even proposing a theory / possibility. The counter to the lack of theory/proposals was then often along the lines of "but the UK government isn't giving us the information from which to make a proposal", an argument that I felt on some occasions was a cop-out. I think for some questions, reasonable worst/best case range of values would be have sufficed.
I also have in my mind that some of the yes campaign has targeted appealing to those on benefits and that their benefits will get better and better ... leaving me thinking "aye, and whose pocket is that going to come out of? ... quite possibly likely mine.
I dont disagree with thought / stats that Scotland is rich in natural resources ... but at what cost to get them out ... will be trash the beauty of Scotland to extract it for money?
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Why would Westminster always be moving to the right?
People have no idea what's going to happen in the future. None at all. So don't say stuff like that as if it's a fact.
Personally I think it oscillates, and the amount of left wing rhetoric from everyday people is growing. It's not random either. Labour was in power, then Thathcer was a reaction to that, then New Labour was a reaction to that. Now there's going to be a reaction to the fact that all three main parties are homogenous and discredited.
Most people on the street have left wing sentiments, after all.
