[Closed] Rationalist Fanatics risk death to make a point...

TopTip

Some people need to get on with their lives, and not worry what other people do, or believe in.

Yeah, not like you eh, ernie?

ahahaha risks death. that's funny..

I still wonder whether they missed the point. Surely to overdose on homeopathy you should take a tiny bit of a pill, not a whole bottle?

aracer - Member
I still wonder whether they missed the point. Surely to overdose on homeopathy you should take a tiny bit of a pill, not a whole bottle?

No, you need to take a tiny amount of an atom of the [i]memory[/i] of the pill.

I'm more worried about her taking a sleeping pill, isn't that what sex is for ?

Been funny if they all fell down dead.

[i][b]one of the many[/b] "mass homeopathic overdoses" taking place around the country [/i]

How do these people have the time or the energy?! 😯

[i]Some people need to get on with their lives, and not worry what other people do, or believe in[/i]

Fair point, but surely what they were protesting about was the NHS wasting money on something that doesn't work?

That's not to say I know if homeopathy works or not (though I doubt it). I was just trying to clarify what the protests were about.

I have such a crush on Hadley Freeman 🙂

The protests, as she says in the article, were about the NHS shelling out for this stuff when they could be buying real drugs.

She looks the sort that would have been on one of those CND lesbian marches in the 80's.

£4 million sounds like a lot of money for quackery, but it's bupkis compared to the amount the NHS spends on "real" drugs.

Homeopathy may be bullsh!t, but it's harmless in itself (as this event demonstrates) and also works well in certain cases, e.g. people with psychosomatic illnesses. If these people can't get it on the NHS I would imagine they would just go to unregulated private practitioners who will charge them through the nose while failing to address any conventionally treatable medical problems they might have.

The protests, as she says in the article, were about the NHS shelling out for this stuff .....

Not according to the Merseyside Skeptics Society/10:23 Group who were behind the protest.

They didn't even mention the NHS in their reporting of the event :

[i]Saturday, 30th January 2010, however, was different. At precisely 10:23am that morning, over 400 protesters took to the streets of cities around the UK as part of the 10:23 campaign – aiming to demonstrate the ineffectiveness of homeopathic pills. Gathering in a dozen town centres the length and breadth of the land, activists bravely took their lives into their hands by ‘overdosing’ on entire bottles homeopathic remedies.

Unsurprisingly, no skeptics were harmed in the making of this protest – for, as we know, there’s nothing in homeopathy. Zip. Zilch. Nil. What’s more, the event didn’t go unnoticed – with prominent press coverage from the BBC, The Guardian, The Telegraph and even the Huffington Post, amongst many, many other sources. Radio stations had phone-ins on the the story. It made the TV news. All in all, this wasn’t a day for skeptics to wince.

The whole event had a particularly surreal quality for me – four months earlier we at the Merseyside Skeptics Society hatched the ludicruously-ambitious plan to have hundreds of people join us in a mass ‘overdose’. The idea was simple: if we could show that it was possible for hundreds of people to take a whole tube of homeopathic pills and suffer no effects (positive or negative), then it would help get people interested in what homeopathy is, and why it can’t possibly work. We had no budget, no experience and no right to expect it to work – all we had to rely on was the energy and passion of the skeptical community, and the hard work of those involved. Fortunately, come the day of the event came, the skeptical community didn’t disappoint…

In London, over 100 people gathered in Red Lion Square in what was the most high-profile event of the day. Sporting the stylish-yet-practical-yet-obligatory 10:23 T Shirts, the crowd heard speeches from Simon Singh and Dr Evan Harris MP – the latter recounting comic highlights from the Parliamentary Science and Technology Sub-Committee’s homeopathy evidence check session in November last year. Counting down to the ‘overdose’ was comedian and author Dave Gorman, who learnt about the protest during an appearance on a TV chat show. Meanwhile, back in campaign headquarters in Liverpool 40 of us took to the steps of the iconic St George’s Hall to overdose on a variety of Boots-brand 30c remedies, before promptly heading to the pub to await reports from around the country (those wanting to see a real overdose might have wished to witness the levels of merriment in the bar).[/i]

They are also targeting Boots in an attempt to stop them selling homoeopathic medicines to their customers.

These are just intolerant and interfering busybodies, who cannot tolerate people who don't share their own identical beliefs. A bit like Mr Woppit I suppose.

It's not about belief as I understand it, it's about the blind acceptance of pseudoscience.

She looks the sort that would have been on one of those CND lesbian marches in the 80's.

She's not old enough.. intensely middle-class, Jewish, intelligent, perceptive, gentle and has a voice like dark honey.. ah 🙂

These are just intolerant and interfering busybodies, who cannot tolerate people who don't share their own identical beliefs.

Sounding like a stalker their molgrips.

So the science of medicine is now elevated to the plane of religion?

let's not pretend homeopathy is [b]science[/b] 🙂

[img] [/img]

Ernie, have some of this, but don't overdo it!

I don't think that stuff counts as homeopathy. It's essential oils, it actually contains the plant extracts.

Oh no, ERNIE STOP! DON'T DO IT!!!!!

I think its a brilliant original idea, taking it as inspiration perhaps we could arrange a mass overdose whilst cycling, and see if anyone crashes!

So the science of medicine is now elevated to the plane of religion?

I haven't "elevated" anything.

If people want to believe in homoeopathy, or fairies at the bottom of their garden, or that Princess Diana was murdered, or that the earth is flat...... it's up to them, [u]not you[/u]. You daft intolerant and judgemental wally.

Still aracer, you apparently believe that most people are stupid - so I guess pleasing you, in your little superior world, must be a tad difficult - eh ?

Homeopathy doesn't work, obviously, but placebos do. Whilst it pains me to say it, maybe the NHS using homeopathy is a good thing as it's a easy way of harnessing the placebo effect.

it's up to them, not you. You daft intolerant and judgemental wally.

I feel that since all belief is arbitrary there's no point taking offence if other people ridicule it. If a belief had substantiation it would become a fact and not be a belief any more. And saying something is wrong doesn't necessarily (ever ?) stop anyone else believing in it

it's up to them, not you. You daft intolerant and judgemental wally.

I liken it to mind readers etc, if people like to use them then fine, leave them to it, but don't pay for them to go out of my taxes when there is absolutely zero proof that they work over any placebo. Just give them chalk tablets, they'll be a lot cheaper and just as effective.

I liken it to mind readers etc

Oi! I think real mind reading is far more plausible the homeopathy!

Ernie, I think you're having another off day....

I think it's a quite elegant and well thought out demonstration, and is aimed at the general public, rather than any attempt at intolerance or interference.

Remember, Homeopathists charge significant sums of money for water, they make completely unsubstantiated claims regarding their product, and have no credible scientific backing for what is an attempt to hoodwink the gullible.

It's a beautiful demonstration of the scientific; overdose on homeopathic medicine.... it works on so many levels.

If it wasn't for this sort of thing, we'd still be burning witches...

The NHS spends £4M pa on homeopathic medicines? I'm gonna bid for the business and only charge £3m. I should be able to buy a lot of little brown bottles, some paper labels and [s]tap water[/s] medicine for less than that.

Oi! I think real mind reading is far more plausible the homeopathy!

Sorry! But you're a nutcase too then!

But you're a nutcase too then!

I was speculating about relative plausibility. There is electical activity in the brain which might be detected, that's different to a supposed imprint of something that's been diluted away to less than a molecule...

"what is an attempt to hoodwink the gullible."

In that case we should ban salesmen, estate agents, recruitment consultants, no win,no fee lawyers etc etc etc.

Caveat emptor!

a quite elegant and well thought out demonstration

Yeah, cause we've sorted all the world's problems out ................ haven't we ?

And all that is left to demonstrate about now, is other people's personal beliefs (concerning medicine/science/religion/whatever)

.

Ernie, I think you're having another off day....

What are you ? .........my personal advisor ? 😀

....I'm touched by your concern btw 😉

The longest journey starts with a single step.

...as for you, it concerns me when you are performing below your usual high standard.:)

[i]So the science of medicine is now elevated to the plane of religion?[/i]
I haven't "elevated" anything.

If people want to believe in homoeopathy, or fairies at the bottom of their garden, or that Princess Diana was murdered, or that the earth is flat...... it's up to them, not you. You daft intolerant and judgemental wally.

Obviously the mistake I made was not realising who you were referring to in "These are just intolerant and interfering busybodies, who cannot tolerate people who don't share their own identical beliefs." It's quite clear from your response that it's actually the homeopathy believers you were referring to, in which case I totally agree.

Still aracer, you apparently believe that most people are stupid - so I guess pleasing you, in your little superior world, must be a tad difficult - eh ?

ernie_lynch - Member

So the science of medicine is now elevated to the plane of religion?

I haven't "elevated" anything.

If people want to believe in homoeopathy, or fairies at the bottom of their garden, or that Princess Diana was murdered, or that the earth is flat...... it's up to them, not you. You daft intolerant and judgemental wally.

Still aracer, you apparently believe that most people are stupid - so I guess pleasing you, in your little superior world, must be a tad difficult - eh ?

Didn't take long... 😉

Homeopathy on the NHS is a fun one, because of the placebo effect- some people believe it helps, and some people are helped purely by believing it helps, therefore even though it has no medical merit at all, it's not automatically worthless.

In Boots one time, I was buying hayfever stuff, they had a 3-for-2 on so after getting the ones I wanted I was looking for any others... "No, you can't mix these", says the pharmacist" "How about this herbal one, can I take it along with the other ones" "Yes you can, because it does absolutely nothing".

Dara O'Brian is worth listening to on the subject of alternative medicine...

In that case we should ban salesmen, estate agents, recruitment consultants, no win,no fee lawyers etc etc etc.

now [/b]you're talking :o)

[url= http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html ]So homeopathy is harmless is it? Not according to this.[/url]

As for an outright ban on homeopathy, well I'm sure there are those in the 1023 group that want that, but I suspect that most sympathisers to this cause, and I'm one of them, just want honesty from those that sell them. These treatments don't, can't, and never will be proven to be effective. If this were a regular medicine being sold in this way then there would (rightly) be an outcry.

As for targeting Boots specifically, well one of their bosses said to a parliamentary committee that they, Boots, have never seen any proof that they work (well they wouldn't as there isn't any) and that the only reason they sell them is that people want to buy them. I personally have no problem with this as long as the claims that are made are honest which it currently isn't. Where I do have a problem is seeing tax money being spent in the NHS on treatment that has been shown time and time again not to work. That money would be better spent on proven effective treatments.

If I dilute a guinness infinitessimally, and [i]believe[/i] it will make me drunk, will it?

I do have a problem is seeing tax money being spent in the NHS on treatment that has been shown time and time again not to work.

The "money being spent by the NHS" is a red herring. As I've already pointed out, the organisers of the protest don't [i]even[/i] mention the NHS in their report of it - so hardly the impetuous behind the event.

But anyway, in pursuit of this red herring.....I think it should be left to a doctor's professional judgement, whether his or her patient might benefit from homoeopathy.

If you don't trust the doctor's professional judgement, then they clearly shouldn't be allowed to practice medicine in the first place........simple as.

And as for the cost, homoeopathic medicine is undoubtedly cheaper than most conventional medicine. So if it is found to have some effect, even if only by acting as a placebo, then it should be accessible. In fact it probably saves the NHS quite a lot of money (and doctors time) if doctors are allowed to prescribe it. And how much better to give a patient something which is completely harmless, than a doctor prescribing conventional medicine under duress.

Ernie,

Personally I have no problem if others wish to believe in superstition, religion or homoeopathy.

What I do have a problem with is:

a) The fact that supplying this junk via the NHS legitimises it - the placebo effect may well work, but as far as I'm aware, we haven't prescribed placebos to patients for a long time now.

b) My tax money is paying for this rubbish.

c) Clairvoyance may make people feel better - would you prescribe that on the NHS, or would you prefer the rational approach of prescribing CBT?

The PROMOTION of non rational mumbo-jumbo, whether it be religious, spiritual or pseudo scientific, like homoeopathy, discredits us as a species, and kicks dirt in the faces of every scientist that ever lived, especially those persecuted for their belief in a rational approach to the understanding of our universe.

we haven't prescribed placebos to patients for a long time now.

what about antibiotics for viral infections ?

That would be prescribing a useful drug wrongly, not prescribing a placebo.

That would be prescribing a useful drug wrongly, not prescribing a placebo.

wrong on 2 counts:
a) every misprescription of an antibiotic contributes to resistance
b) not useful for the medical condition and therefore a placebo - it doesn't have to be sugar or chalk to be a placebo, it only has to be ineffective.