[Closed] Ranking our politicians

Power hungry with no moral compass - 95% of them

Honourable exceptions - Sturgeon, Brown, Starmer.

There is not single prominent tory I would trust to run a bath and few on the labour benches.

The hollowing out of political leadership and the utterly awful calibre of most of them is really worrying.

It's not about good or bad though is it?

It's self-interest -v- altruism and competence -v- obedience.

It’s not about good or bad though is it?
It’s self-interest -v- altruism and competence -v- obedience.

Possibly, but I'm actually pretty convinced that for some of them - especially the ones I put in the first category, there isn't even necessarily a conscious sense of self-interest on the part of some of them. JRM, for example, may have all sorts of financial interests bound up with his being an absolute dick, but I also think he is actually quite a bad person (i.e. that the way he approaches the world is with some malevolence).

Naked self-interest and malevolence are often indistiguishable

May is a tricky one, awful voting record on things like gay rights etc, didnt do much good of any note in charge but I think she did want to make things better for most.

May is a tricky one, awful voting record on things like gay rights etc, didnt do much good of any note in charge but I think she did want to make things better for most.

I totally agree about May. At the same time, I actually think she was single-handedly - if inadvertently - responsible for the negative tone post referendum. Can you imagine if, instead of talking about 'red lines' and 'Brexit means Brexit', she had have said something like

'This referendum has shown us that there are equally strong feelings and beliefs on both sides of the debate, and we must remember that respect and mutual understanding must guide us in the days ahead.'?

Instead, her words polarised and excluded. At the very least, I think she was ill-advised, naïve, and not fit for leadership.

May isn't a tricky one. She was an awful politician, she destroyed the home office then moved on to making sure Brexit was a total disaster. She put party before country time and again, driven by an ideological hatred of the left and all it stood for.

See thats the problem I have with Tories I can never tell if theyvare just hopelessly incompetent or fiendishly cunning.

+1 richmtb. may is a vile woman, don't forget her hostile environment policies.

What about Matt Hancock
I could not place him on that list, but he always reminds me of Jeffrey Fairbrother in the breefings and that can never be a good thing.

Hmm I've thought about it and honestly I have no idea what most of our current prominent politicians actual stand for to rank them.

I think you're letting David Cameron off lightly, the rot really started with him in terms of politicians who stood for nothing. Just a confusing mixture of slogans and misdirection from people with little to inclination of the real world. All things to whatever is politically expedient at at given moment.

Thatcher, Major, Blair and Brown - you could really disagree with them but at least there was the idea that they had some kind of clear guiding principles.

#1 needs to be split in to at least 2... bad, and really potentially seriously dangerous (where I'd put priti, cummings, farage, and several others that all have a special place in hell reserved for them)

I honestly don't know if there are any truly 'Evil' Politicians, I think most, if not all of them get into it to change the world for the better. Often we just don't agree with their methods or ideology.

There are maybe some who are in it for what they can grab for themselves but I don't get a sense they'll stick around for long. If you've got the connections and backing to be an Cabinet Minister, there are easier way to make money and gain power, see Dominic Cummings for example, a sociopath that should never be allowed near anything as important as a Photocopier let alone Government.

There are plenty of them that are just really bad at doing good. This is more of a scale of performance than good v evil.

1) Chris Grayling, a man who could grasp defeat from the jaws of victory like no other. Diann Abbot, the worst kind of Lefty, the type that knows whats best for us, even if we don't like it. It's only the slow, laborious rage-less way she speaks that hides her nastiness.

2) Jeremy Corbyn, he's a good man handicapped by ideology and a refusal to represent the views of those he asked to elect him. David Cameron, he had the chance to 'Do a Major' and be a Tory MP that we all discovered, to our complete shock wasn't pure Evil, but he was worse, he was arrogant. He didn't respect his adversaries and let them choose the battle they wanted to have.

3) Nick Clegg, he found himself in a position no Liberal has found themselves to be in 100 years, Power. He was faced with a no-win problem. Side with Gordon Brown, a good PM who was handed the worst Hospital Pass in British History and who had just won less seats than his other choice David Cameron, a Tory. The Lib Dems are a Centrist Off-shoot of Labour and I think the Party and the Members would have been happier if he went with Brown, the Public who were told that Brown had caused the Great Recession wouldn't have accepted Brown returned to No10 when they won less seats than the Tories. To be great he needed to find a 3rd way, which is after all what the Lib Dems were all about, he didn't and was used as a scapegoat.

4) Tony Blair, (I know, I know War Criminal the Leftys will cry, but they're wrong). The most successful Labour PM in History, along with his Frenemy Gordon Brown delivered a decade of growth and prosperity we may never see again. Minimum Wage, Thousands more Police officers, huge Cuts in Crime, Doubled School funding, Highest Level of employment in British History, tens of thousands of more Nurses and Doctors, Paid Paternity leave, Gift Aid, Record numbers of Uni Students, Sure Start, Helped end 'The Troubles' not but knocking is predecessor, but by working with him, Banned Fox Hunting, Child Trust funds, Free Nursery places etc etc etc. His problem was the same as Cameron arrogance, he made a deal with Bush that he'd back the war in Iraq if he took it to the UN, he did, they said no, but the US invaded anyway. The Socialists like to shout down anyone who tried to list his achievements by screaming about the War like it was a UK lead thing, it was a US, we just foolishly followed them into it.

5) Gordon Brown. Not very charismatic, but well intended and intelligent. Blairs social achievements were only possible because of Brown economic ones. They applied centre-left morals to capitalism. It wasn't perfect - they used to say that New Labour could live with the Billionaires, as long as they paid their Taxes, but they never do, not as much as they should anyway. Someone will no doubt mention selling all the Gold when it was 'cheap' which is a very simplistic view - it was the right decision, but then 9/11 happened, Gold prices sky rocketed and he got blamed for it. He also gets blamed for the Great Recession, but it's not fair. You might argue that he should have regulated the banks more closely and he should have prevented the House price boom, but he didn't know about the US sub-prime scam, less than 100 people globally did. Brown had a plan to avert disaster but Bush didn't agree - Lehmans fell, Bush knew Brown was right, but by then it was all too late.

John Major, if the Lefties spit "red Tory" at Brown and Blair, then the Right of the Tory party could spit "Blue Labour" at Major, his background and policies are almost all centre-left, it's almost like he got lost on his way to join Labour and walked into the wrong office. He had no chance of winning in 1992, the word 'Thatcher' was already a swear word, if Blair got all the luck in his first 2 terms, Major got all the bad. Black Wednesday, A war in Europe and a gang of complete Bastards as supposedly colleagues, he managed them all at the same time as sowing the seeds to end 'The Troubles' in the end it wasn't him or his policies that gave Blair his landslide, it was his colleagues who couldn't stop themselves getting into trouble.

May got the leadership by default when the Tories still felt that had to pretend not to have become a right to far-right populist movement.

She had to give it all the Land of Hope and Glory bollocks or the swivel eyed loons would have done her in there and then. She was the fall guy whilst they still had to pretend.

Priti Patel may be a despicable person but there's something a bit hubba-hubba about her, in a sort of Sarah Palin way. I really wouldn't mind being given a good telling off by her. Or tellin' as she would say.

I’m not, but I can not remember a time in my life when we have had such a preponderance of genuinely horrible people with some degree of political prominence. In light of this, I can honestly say that I don’t think a single member of the so-called ERG has a decent bone in their body.

aye right

"I think most, if not all of them get into it to change the world for the better."

I really wish that was true. I used to naively believe that all politicians had to work their way up from local councillor, to MP etc but it's simply not the case. Its very possible to start off with the sole intention of rising to the top for your own nefarious gain without ever knocking on a door or meeting constituent...if you have the right connections.
The horrendous documentary about Eton a few years ago showed that in the raw - literally kids of 16 saying that they would be going into politics as the family were connected and it was an easy route to power and influential positions on corporate boards, not a shred of wanting to make a change for the better.

Every generation thinks their current government is the worst, but jesus...I can't remember when it was ever so blatantly corrupt.
It's not the massive mess they've made of anything to do with corona, grenfell, windrush, nhs, social care, policing, but the absolute lack of humility or honesty and the sole focus is cover up at all costs, rather than show any transparency.

Unfortunately they're a very shrewd bunch that have worked out that bluff and big talk is all people want to here, in a nation on the skids people optimistically buy into the promises and the swagger and bury their heads in the sand when it comes to delivery.
The current government are expert at exploiting that.

Okay, slate me as you want. I have even gone to the trouble of checking the names of Conservative mps since 2000. There are none of them I would not score a 1.
Stick John bloody Major in there, along with them!

The only Tory mp I would even consider a 2 or 3 is Ted Heath and that’s probably because I was too young to get a true measure of the man. But my memory of him, is of a decent human being.

Unfortunately they’re a very shrewd bunch that have worked out that bluff and big talk is all people want to here, in a nation on the skids people optimistically buy into the promises and the swagger and bury their heads in the sand when it comes to delivery.
The current government are expert at exploiting that.

I think that realising the right xenophobic/racist buttons to push whilst keeping it just about 'ok' has brought them more results and runs 'optimism' into a very distant second place.

It isn't optimism, it is fear of 'other'.

I think part of the problem in the last 10 year's in particular is what appears too many career politicians of all political persuasion who have no life experiences outside of university and working in politics. Or a short failed career in law or banking who then end up with a career for life in politics.

How these people are able to relate to enyone or anything outside of politics is very limited in my opinion hence we get stuck with some truly poor inept even dangerous individuals in positions of power they are neither suitable or skilled enough for.

I don't think many of the politicians of the last 10 year's have covered themselves in glory, Cameron, Osborne, clegg, May, Corbyn, Abbott, Rabb, Gove, Patel,Swinson, Johnson all equally culpable for the current mess we are in.

I'm reasonably positive about sturgeon and even Ruth Davidson. But keeping it local John Lamont is a party line boy with a "I want promotion voting record". There were even rumours that he was willing to give his seat up for Ruth Davidson to get her MP seat and possibly party leadership. Obviously he was getting a peerage but that's just scuttlebutt.

I'm sorry but I really can't agree with Ruth Davidson. She seems (due to her media ex-colleagues) to have been given a bit of an easy ride whilst doing everything she can to line her own pockets. She does have the advantage that she doesn't come from the wealthy/land-owning background that much of the Tory party in Scotland is still infested with though.

Reasonable arguement I was trying to find.a positive Tory.

I had to walk out of a Macmillan coffee morning a couple of years ago because Lamont walked in. Total photo op to be seen with the poor and needy. Didn't even pay an entrance donation because the headteacher was playing lapdog.

Annabel Goldie? Can't say I agreed with her politics but she seemed to at least "care".

TBH my opinion is always coloured when folk subsequently accept a peerage.

Aye Goldie was honest

Special mentions for being vile go to Alistair Carmicheal and Ian Murray. Carmichael deliberately lied and then covered it up until after his lie had no influence and a million pound enquiry uncovered it and Murray despite being supposedly labour prefers tories governments to the SNP winning seats.

Yeah, but that doesn't necessarily make them bad people, certainly not in the case of Murray.

Isn’t this all increasingly irrelevant in the new era when even the Prime Minister is told what to do by some psychotic dwarf who nobody ever voted for?

Is anybody really still harbouring any illusions about who’s actually running the country?

The current cabinet aren’t even really politicians. They’re just a really poor PR firm

Yeah, but that doesn’t necessarily make them bad people, certainly not in the case of Murray.

Eh?

Why does Singletrackworld attract all these left wing political threads?

Why does Singletrackworld attract all these left wing political threads?

It's a holding area for commie road cyclists. Its as comical as Mumsnet. How they make money from this lot I really don't know.

Why does Singletrackworld attract all these left wing political threads?

Because, by and large, STW is filled with mostly intelligent people, that's why

Is Dominic Grieve left wing now?

He’d be group in 5 for me as well.

I’m interested in who people used to think were a 4 or a 5, but now see as a 1… Zac Goldsmith for me. And the forementioned Alistair Carmicheal… both once seemed to be honest (even if you disagreed with their politics), neither should now be anywhere near parliament. That Goldsmith is a minister, despite being seen through by his voters, stinks.

I find STW has a right wing bias.

Daveylad, STW would appear to make money from the left wing comments coming predominantly from people who appear to pay some form of subscription. Makes you think.

I find STW has a right wing bias.

Now you're just trolling. In comparison to pretty much any other chat board on the web short of Corbyn's fan club this place makes the Paris Communes look like right wingers.

Yeah, I wouldn't agree that the forum has a right wing bias. Maybe it's just that there are more people willing to express their right wing views than you, TJ, or I, come across in our other social interactions?

Anyway, it's easy to think well of politicians whose views we share. Harder to emphasise with those with whom we have conflict.

Any politician seeks power and that's a quality many of us otherwise find unattractive. That doesn't mean that they are all doing it for selfish reasons.

Ian Murray - what do you think makes him a "bad person"?

Can I add Fergus Ewing? I should rate him highly according to my own political bias but actually reckon he is, at best, a 2.

I find STW has a right wing bias.

You're looking in the wrong places.

Why does Singletrackworld attract all these left wing political threads?

Because, by and large, STW is filled with mostly intelligent people, that’s why

You shouldn't assume people are intelligent, just because you agree with them 😉

Ian Murray - one of the driving forces behind the labour / tory non aggression pact that resulted in enough Scots tory MPs that may could forma government. Constant lying attacks on the scottish government. A staunch proponent of the "Bain" principle.

He has simply forgotten who the enemy is and would rather tories were elected than SNP

I doo believe hi is effective for his constituents but I will never forgive him for his part in the tory / labour non aggression pact because of the disastrous consequences

I agree the right wing bias is not as great as it was but to me its still there.

You can't say someone is a bad person just because they voted, or encouraged someone else to vote, Tory.

I agree the right wing bias is not as great as it was but to me its still there.

I really thought you were joking.

A right wing bias as in the majority of posters on STW are right of centre, or there's a couple of members who occasionally lean that way?

Can you quantify it, for example do you consider the policies of the 'New Labour' Government, left or right of centre?

but to me its still there.

So lets have some names then.. Who are the vast swarms of right wingers on here, that overwhelmingly represent the whole on political threads

Scotroutes - when they are a supposedly labour politician? Remember the Bevan quote " lower than vermin". How can Murray forget the deaths and despair Tories cause?

P jay - its not so much in the overtly political sphere - its the unconscious stuff like thinking £50 000+ pa is not a lot of money, like stating people on normal wages can afford fee paying schools. Its the complaining about childcare costs making them poor when to be able to afford that in any way makes them rich. Its the total lack of understanding of how unequal our society is. Its the rage expressed at any measures to make cycling better at the expense of car drivers. Its the unwillingness to " make the polluters pay"

Blair certainly was right of centre by the end of his time in government

nickc - I do not not remember who said what.

It's not about individual qualities, whatever people's ideals might be at the beginning of a political career they get sucked into a system that moderates everything. Plus they might be sponsored generously (Watson and Starmer got lots from some pretty shady big business/foreign policy sources) and once they start playing the expenses game that immediately shifts their 'shared interests' from that of the electorate to that of other MPs. Look at the split between the PLP and the constituency parties.
I used to sail with a Tory councillor, nice bloke, funny, bright, but I hated his politics and I've met Labour people who were ferociously self-seeking and too thick to know their own limitations. Whatever their individual qualities, it's the system which predominates, neutralises individuals and determines 'acceptable' outcomes.

when they are a supposedly labour politician? Remember the Bevan quote ” lower than vermin”. How can Murray forget the deaths and despair Tories cause?

Right. So you're back to all Tories and all of their works. I'm out.

From my experience both personally and professionally its hard to see much else. Maybe thats my bias but when you see peoples lives blighted as an obvious and deliberate policy its hard not to hate.

Goldie constructively engaged at Holyrood - maybe thats an example to the opposite but I can't think of much else. Maybe the paternalistic "one nation" tories are not evil just unpleasant

P jay – its not so much in the overtly political sphere – its the unconscious stuff like thinking £50 000+ pa is not a lot of money, like stating people on normal wages can afford fee paying schools. Its the complaining about childcare costs making them poor when to be able to afford that in any way makes them rich. Its the total lack of understanding of how unequal our society is. Its the rage expressed at any measures to make cycling better at the expense of car drivers. Its the unwillingness to ” make the polluters pay”

Blair certainly was right of centre by the end of his time in government

I think I understand.

I think your Left / Right line is just further left than others. It's Social Democracy v Democratic Socialism, they're both left-leaning.

Personally, I don't think Wealth or the even not accepting how lucky are are makes people right wing, we probably wouldn't agree about a lot of social economic measures, but neither of us are right wing.

I am a social democrat. I like governments like the social democratic ones that have prevailed post war across most of northern Europe.

It shows how far right we have moved as a society that things that are the norm across most of europe are considered hard left here. Basic stuff like worker and rental protection. Properly funded healthcare, state control of natural monopolies like energy and water supply, worker representation on company boards, decent levels of pensions and benefits that do not leave people living in poverty. You know - the basic things that make life liveable for those who are less fortunate or able than the rest of us

An example of the sort of thing that leads me to hate tories. You are either part of the solution or part of the problem. You can never be neutral

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/01/man-who-starved-after-benefits-cut-off-had-pulled-out-own-teeth

I’m pretty much in agreement with Tj (apart from his love of Sturgeon). Although I’d describe myself as a socialist. I probably fit Binners description about 6th form idealists. So I think mainly on the forum we have people on the left side of the middle ground, but still wedded to the status quo and capitalism, mark et economics etc.

Daveylad perhaps you could entertain us with your criticisms of either Thomas Piketty or the labour theory of value, I'm sure they could do that on Mumsnet.

Just in case anyone missed this magnificent piece of perfect timing:

Question posed:

Why does Singletrackworld attract all these left wing political threads?

Whilst the direct response was being typed we had:

It’s a holding area for commie road cyclists. Its as comical as Mumsnet. How they make money from this lot I really don’t know.

Which walked straight into:

Because, by and large, STW is filled with mostly intelligent people, that’s why

Magnificent by Daveylad, taking one for the team by making himself into the punchline.

If anyone can link that gif where the defender lashes out at a ball that has crossed the line and kicks it into his own face via the post, the floor is yours!