[Closed] Random observaation, Scottish identity

Dingwall in the Highlands is viking in origin meaning meeting place of the assembly or some such

Yep. 'Thing' means assembly in Norse and modern Icelandic, IIRC their parliament is called the Allthing except spelled with a character that looks like a p but sounds like th. It's also the oldest current legislature in the world.

yourguitarhero - Member
scotroutes » tjagain » craigw
Leuchars / Luacharas (a place with reeds or rushes)
That makes sense as it's on the Eden estuary. I grew up the next village over

Balmullo or Guardbridge?

scotroutes - Member

I'm generally in favour of some investment in retaining the language. Without it we'd lose access to some of the wonderful songs and stories.

Just get the boy from Runrig to do it. Not Donnie Munro, the other feller that replaced him and didn't speak gaelic so just copied the noises

Bruce Guthro has, IIRC, two Gaelic lines in all the songs he sings with Runrig.

#northyfacts

Dude, Alba alone has more than that, come on. (I've seen him do the highest apple too, and just looked online and they play Onar too which is in the gaelic, maybe some others I don't know)

(on that note- keeping gaelic songs alive without speaking gaelic, this is actually awesome

well this thread went to shit, runrig ffs? 😆 😉

Kirk comes from Scandinavia. Bliddy Vikings.

Kirk comes from Scandinavia. Bliddy Vikings.

[quote=Northwind ]Dude, Alba alone has more than that, come on. (I've seen him do the highest apple too, and just looked online and they play Onar too which is in the gaelic, maybe some others I don't know)
(on that note- keeping gaelic songs alive without speaking gaelic, this is actually awesome
>

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Alba - the only word Bruces speaks is "Alba".
Onar - Bruces sings the verses (in English, except for one line) - I think he chucks in a "Cha ro Mi" on the occasional chorus .
An Ubhal as Airde - I've obviously not been to every Runrig concert but I can't ever recall Bruce attempting this. Any idea which concert (or even tour) it was on? The only time I've heard it since Donnies departure was at POTM in Muir of Ord.

Surely you mean this thread went to shite seosamh

Same word basically all over Germanic Europe today. Norwegians go to Kirke on Sundays, Swedes go to kyrka, Finns go to kirkko, Germans to kirche...

... and English speakers go to church, which has the same root again.

Proto German, borrowed from Greek, according to Wiktionary:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/church#English

Gaelic is a living language for parts of the North and the Islands, but only exists in place names and the odd conversational word for most of the Scottish population. My maternal grandparents were rural Highlanders born and bred, but were not Gaelic speakers.
There's value in looking after the language for cultural and historical reasons, but realistically, it will never stage a significant come back, and I expect there will just be a long slow decline in day-to-day use.

Bruce Guthro...Dear God...I was vaguely aware of Runrig and liked the earlier stuff. And lets be honest gents; some of us will remember them from their amazing live shows of the late 80's. After they became an American Mor band I denied ALL knowledge of ever having heard of them thinking they couldn't get worse. Oh; but they could!

Surely you mean this thread went to shite seosamh

Or even keech.

I'm from Aberdeen/shire, and as with Donald above (who seems to know his stuff!) can confirm Doric is a Scots dialect-

Missus is from there, first time I went for a visit I was lost for a week. WTF is a teuchter? and instead of a polite "what" in an Aberdeenshire accent, t'other half went back to shouting fit at me and then calling me a feel guipe or something.

Kind of got used to it now, her dad is from the Broch though so I still need subtitles from time to time.

Visting Caithness was different though, being a Yorkshire bloke the Caithness dialect seemed to make more sense - was told both Caithness and Yorkshire are heavily Danish influenced.

T'other half kind of understands Gaelic to listen to but doesn't really speak it. Always got the impression that the dialects were more common than the Gaelic - keep wanting to spell it Gallic as she pronounces it though.

[quote=joshvegas ] yourguitarhero - Member
scotroutes » tjagain » craigw
Leuchars / Luacharas (a place with reeds or rushes)
That makes sense as it's on the Eden estuary. I grew up the next village over
Balmullo or Guardbridge?

Grew up in Balmullo in the 80s/90s

gordimhor - Member
Surely you mean this thread went to shite seosamh

gone tae buggery!

One of the things I like about living in Scotland is that in general there is no over inflated sense of importance. We know we are little country on the edge of europe. A couple of examples. During the independence referendum we were warned by an English politician that independent scotland would only have as much influence in international affairs as Finland. The consensus seemed to be " that seems right and fair" The other is the scotland football fans singing " we are crap and we know it"

this sort of attitude seems more healthy to me than the " hitting above our weight" "special relationship" " best in the world" sort of nonsense that we hear from England.

There seems to be a desire to act as an example of a modern social democracy - the trumpeting of the progress made on renewables, of an enlightend attitude to refuges, of progressive social policies and to show our worth to the world in this way rather than by sabre rattling and having that huge substitute for manhood the trident missile.

Of course this is only a tendency and not a universal truth ( both sides of this). However its something that differentiate Scotland from England and is a part of the national psyche and IMO one of the reasons I have made this country my home

Aye, that's true. I'm perfectly happy to live in a small European country.

The UK is, very often, all fur coat and no knickers. Wanting to have nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers while millions rely on food banks and the health service is collapsing. It's like an old man buying a sports car.

in general there is no over inflated sense of importance

That is true in most of the rest of the country too. It's not all Al Murray and St George. Just look at this forum - everyone's queueing up to say how shite we are. Everyone pours scorn on us for having an over-inflated sense of self. If everyone does that then it can't be true.

I suspect such people are in the minority. Despite Brexit vote.

That is true in most of the rest of the country too.

Aye, absolutely - many English people I'm sure would be happy to live in a middle-sized European country as well. But there's a lot of institutional and historic memory there.

Oops wrong thread.

Taking the thread back to its roots... One problem that the gaelic language has today in its heartland, is my own generation.
Born and brought up in a small west Highland village of Sassenach(Lowland) parents, my pals all came from households where the older generations spoke the mither tongue, so it was in common use among the youngsters. As new primary school pupils, we were shocked to discover that the rumours we'd heard were true; you got belted for using gaelic words in the classroom. An imported headmaster from the south had been given a brief by the education authority in Inverness that the old language was to be discouraged and he took that very literally, describing it as the words of peasants, not those of educated people. In the coming years, I then lost the limited vocabulary that I then had. Even Scots was frowned upon, to the extent that the folk of this part of the world became renowned for having the cleanest and best spoken English anywhere at all.
Nowadays, I think it's daft to spend limited public funds to put in new signage in non-heartland areas. For example, Glenshee ski area has replaced its signs on a grant-funded project.

Nowadays, I think it's daft to spend limited public funds to put in new signage in non-heartland areas.

But (playing devil's advocate here) as a speaker of a native Scottish language, how would you feel seeing your homeland dominated by a foreign language? People say the same thing about Welsh signs in Cardiff. But of course, not everyone in Cardiff actually lives here; nor was everyone who lives here born here.

scotroutes - Member

An Ubhal as Airde - I've obviously not been to every Runrig concert but I can't ever recall Bruce attempting this. Any idea which concert (or even tour) it was on? The only time I've heard it since Donnies departure was at POTM in Muir of Ord.

Pretty soon after he joined the band, it made me want a Carlsberg.

I thought it was pretty funny, but then I've sung along to Sepultura and no hablo portugues. Has to have been a festival or a hogmanay or something, that's the only time I've seen them- not a fan really but they do have some choons. Possibly even bangers.

Didn't realise that about Alba! That's cheating!

I think that there's a big difference between Wales and Scotland in this respect; a lot more folk in Wales as a whole do speak the native tongue, both in simple numbers and as a proportion of the population. Welsh is used routinely in more communities and by more folk than use the Gaelic in Scotland.
English of sorts (auld Scots) has been spoken here in the Highlands for a long time and so have many other languages. All imported at some time, including no doubt whatever it was that the Picts used before the Celts arrived! Clan warfare was a part of the medieval culture that included gaelic. Should we bring that back too...?
And just to be clear, when I'm touring in the Western Isles, I just love hearing the gaelic spoken. I wish I could understand it better.....

highlandman - interesting reminisces about school. When I was taught, we had English history. We had a frieze round one classroom with all the English rulers since Roman times, we were taught about the Roman invasion (of England), of 1066 etc. Nothing to do with us of course. No mention of the founding of Scotland, of Picts and Celts. People laugh when I say that there was an institutionalised racism in Scottish education, but this wasn't confined to one school. Chatting with others of my generation, it was widespread.

Much of the Gaelic revival (and I'd include Runrig as a prime mover in this) has been to try to restore Scots awareness of their own past.

Lyrics for Fichead Bliadhna by Runrig
Running in the moors
Running in the hills
And then to school at the end of summer
Children,
Five years of age,
Without a word of English in my head

Here is your book,
Here is your pen.
"Study hard", that's what they told me,
"And you will rise up in the world,
You will get ahead."

Twenty years for the truth
I had to wait
I had to search
Twenty years of lies
They denied me knowledge of myself.

I learned many things
The English language, the poetry of England
The music of Germany
The history of Spain
And even that was a false history

Then on to further education
Following education, more education
Like idiots on the end of a string
Our heads filled with a sort of learning

Twenty years for the truth
I had to wait
I had to search
Twenty years of lies
They denied me knowledge of myself.

And I did rise in the world
I found my suit, I found my shirt
I found a place in the eyes of men
Well away from the freedom of the moor

But why did they keep our history from us?
I'll tell you they are frightened
In case the Gaels rise
With searching and penetrating questions.

Twenty years for the truth
I had to wait
I had to search
Twenty years of lies
They denied me knowledge of myself.

When I started searching
I could not believe my eyes,
evil works.

Interesting about history teaching Scotroutes. I went to comprehensive school in Glasgow in the 70s and I got no UK history at all ( I dropped it as 14 tho) We had pre Roman and Roman stuff then scots history Mary queen of scots, jacobites etc - nothing that I remember about 1066 , english civil war, english kings and queens.

and islanders definitely feel part of Scotland

having lived in Orkney I'm not sure this as true for Orkney & Shetland as it is for the western isles.

scotroutes - Member
Much of the Gaelic revival has been to try to restore Scots awareness of their own past.

Few pages ago, Duckman(I think) mentioned that that had changed somewhat in schools, since 2009. I can only take him at his word. Hopefully it has.

Any comprehensive history teaching of migrations/language/culture etc has to include, Irish, ****stani, Indian, Italian, Chinese, Polish etc etc etc history as well as the "native" history.

Gents I'd recommend a book by Alister Moffat The Fadded Map (the lost kingdoms of Scotland). For the lay person it gives the history of the development of Scotland as a country and the development of the various languages spoke. Also the cannot help but include the England and Wales. The gist being for a long time the most common laugh age spoken in Britain for a period is Old Welsh, the name of Edinburgh is a corruption of its old Welsh name.

It's right here on a bookshelf 🙂

yourguitarhero - Member
joshvegas » yourguitarhero - Member
scotroutes » tjagain » craigw
Leuchars / Luacharas (a place with reeds or rushes)
That makes sense as it's on the Eden estuary. I grew up the next village over
Balmullo or Guardbridge?
Grew up in Balmullo in the 80s/90s

Snap.

mt - Member
Also the cannot help but include the England and Wales.

Which is true even for modern day history, you can't escape it and would be wrong to do so, I don't think people are saying that though, just that it is/was too lopsided.

From a personal point of view, I think this book should be on the syllabus in Glasgow.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Irish-Remarkable-Saga-Nation-City/dp/1840188510

I am deeply conflicted by this topic.

I was brought up just outside Aberdeen in a decidedly rural setting on the estate of the last catholic seminary in Scotland. My parents (who were decidedly 'toonsers') who, in an effort to give their children a headstart in life by talking 'English' thus robbing me of my natural vernacular (i.e. doric). This was the sixties....

And to cap it all my father was a linguist and a teacher of gaelic, in fact he wrote a non-native learner Gaelic course book (and an o-grade interpretation book as well). If you tried to learn Gaelic in the late 70's or 80's chances are you used his book. If it was with Aberdeen college of commerce. It might even have been him.

I recall going to a single Saturday morning junior Gaelic class with my elder brother and sister (I was too young really) when they went for all of three or four weeks. That is it, my total effort to learn.... 😳 Kids, eh? Who'd bloody have them? None of the four of us speak a word (despite my sisters partner hailing from Brescliat on the west of Lewis).

The two local hills (too low to really call them mountains) are Bennachie and Clachnabeinn which are obviously gaelic in derivation (my dad had a great story about the derivation of Clachnabeinn). Sadly I only tapped into this repository of knowledge when I needed help with pronunciation...

There are some great local place names/pronunciations though;

Finzean - Fingin
Strachan - Stra'an
Aberchirder - Foggieloan

Mind you, one of my favourite place names has to be bridge of Bogendriep

Hearing the Proclaimers on the radio for the first time was a massive eye-opener for me. At last, people who spoke like me were able to make themselves heard without having to conform to some Anglo-saxon or mid-Atlantic generic accent.

Reading Trainspotting had a similar effect.

Things are slowly improving though. Peter Capaldi was allowed to retain his accent in Dr Who whereas David Tennant was told to cover his up.

That's twa mair books oan the reading list . Thanks Seosamh and mt

@scotroutes. You read any of his other books? Have read three now all great. The Reivors. Border History all brilliant and fantastically educational if you spend a lot of time in the north of England and Southern Scotland.

The people who always come out best to me are the Romans, everyone else is bobbins.

gordimhor - Member
That's twa mair books oan the reading list . Thanks Seosamh and mt

I haven't. The Highland Clans is on my list though.

If anyone wants to borrow The Faded Map, let me know.

How about The Summer Walkers (Timothy Neat)? That fair took me back to family holidays in the Highlands when we'd see the Tinkers with their carts

Any suggestions for good novels in Scots or partly in Scots. I m familiar with Welsh, Mccilvanney and to a lesser degree Kelman.
I'd also suggest Andrew Greig Electric Brae or Fair Helen being my favourites by him

Sunset Song by Lewis Grassic Gibbon.

Not strictly scots (anglicised) but very evocative of the Howe o the Mearns (and a powerful book if you've not read it).

If you read it out loud the rhythms are very authentic.

Here's a bit of Scots for mtbers... (lifted from FB)

TAMS MUCKLE TURD.
Intae the wids amongst the trees.
Tam bared his erse, his cheeks to ease.
Nae sinner hud his breeks gan doon.
Than shitty flees were swarming roon.
Intae the wind he bared his baws
and from his erse a big keech faws.
The reek it curled amongst the trees.
'twis enough tae make the birdies sneeze.
An' a' the bees on bended knees,
Got sick a fricht o' Tams big erse.
Big Tam wis in awfy pain.
It came oot his erse like a nine pund wean.
Thur wis a tear faw fi' his eee
For a bigger shite you'd never see.
Big Tams erse wis raw an sair.
Says big Tam I'll shite nae mair.
Yonder it lay amongst the grit.
A dirty stinkin' muckle shit.
Yonder it lay si saft, si fresh.
Nae een, nae teeth, nae bains, nae flesh.
I swear it never drew a breath.
Tams Muckle Turd.

For recent Scots books, albeit written in fairly plain English, I think Ian Banks was pretty impressive.

There's a wonderfully west Scotland feel to his stuff - less so the Ian M Banks stuff but that's well written too.

Favourite Runrig song - Recovery. Makes hairs stand up. And if you like Runrig (some don't) try Wolfstone. The Chase is good.