raising the pension age

From my point of view I fail to see what raising the pension age achieves at a societal level.

It improves the ratio of people paying taxes into the system vs people withdrawing pension from the system, so improved the States finances a bit, which can be used to fund things like health care etc...

There are actually two different retirement ages in France, one currently 62 and one 67. I don't fully understand the difference to be honest...

From my French Economic magazine...

L'autre grande justification des promoteurs d'un report de l'âge légal à 65 ans est que tous nos voisins européens l'ont fait. Serions-nous seuls à faire fausse route en restant à 62 ans? C'est clair, l'âge effectif de départ à la retraite des Français est en moyenne plus bas que celui de nos voisins. Mais on oublie de dire qu'il y a deux âges de départ en France : 62 ans, l'âge légal à partir duquel on ne peut pas empêcher un salarié d'ouvrir ses droits mais avec application d'une forte décote si l'on n'a pas cotisé les trimestres nécessaires pour avoir droit à une retraite complète; et 67 ans, l'âge de l'annulation de la décote. Dans la plupart des autres pays, ces deux âges n'existent pas.

It improves the ratio of people paying taxes into the system vs people withdrawing pension from the system, so improved the States finances a bit, which can be used to fund things like health care etc…

Not if no new jobs are created, it just replaces those drawing pensions with those claiming other benefits, still the same number of jobs paying into the system.

It probably benefits the employer as they have less recruitment and training costs, but that is never the stated intention.

From a UK perspective; it's not "raising the pension age", it's raising the age when the State Pension benefits/payments etc can be accessed.

It also increases the number of people paying NI (on earnings when 'retired' but not above State Pension age).

Not if no new jobs are created

But it does if they are or more likely you end up increasing the overall number of man hours worked per year..

What it ignores is some jobs yuo simply cannot continue to 67 or older.  I'm near;ly 62 and if I had still been working as a nurse I would now be off sick on disability due to the physical damage from my job.  Move to a  less physically demanding role you might say - there just is not enough such roles in the health service for all those who would need it.  There would be many others in this sort of situation - building trades would have many roles where your declining physical resilience over 60 would make it impossible to continue.

its fine for those who have sedentary jobs but many of us do not but then how fair is it to have different rules for different roles?

There is a real issue tho that folk like my dad have now had 30 years of retirement for 36 years working.  That cannot be sustainable

Raising the pension age means different things:

1. Delaying the point at which state pension starts to be paid.

2. Increasing the time which people pay tax/social security on their earnings;

3.if older people generally earn more they will also pay proportionally more than a young person replacing them (if they are in gov/state job this may cost the state more)

4. Delaying point at which you can take private pensions ie, take early retirement.

5. encouraging people to make private pension arrangements so they can retire when they want rather than the state telling you.

Your question seems to assume we have more people than jobs.  The government rhetoric in the U.K. is we have more jobs than people so need more people to work.

People are living longer and spending more of that time with chronic illness, putting increasing demand on health and social care. We also have an aging demographic whereby there will soon be more retired people than taxpayers (yay!) and birth rates falling - we’ve also successfully driven off all those younger migrants who were prepared to do labour-intensive, low paid work. Finally, there’s a myth that older folks perpetuate about ‘paying in’ to the system when the reality is they paid for the care of their parent’s generation and today’s taxpayer is paying their bills. The alternative is everyone paying more tax, which in the current wouldn’t exactly be a popular move.

Not if no new jobs are created,

Didn't the "lump of labour" fallacy die out a while back?

If no new jobs were created, how come more people are working now than the total who lived in the UK back in the early 19th century?

But it does if they are or more likely you end up increasing the overall number of man hours worked per year..

And how does raising the pension age do that? If they job exists, keeping someone on for a couple of extra years just stops someone else filling the position. I don't see any path where raising the pension age creates those extra man hours, unless the system is already under resourced by man hours, which I don't believe is the case.

If no new jobs were created, how come more people are working now than the total who lived in the UK back in the early 19th century?

Have those jobs been created by extending working lives or from other mechanisms?

There is also the aspect about differing life expectancy in different social classes and areas.  IIRC this varies from around 60 to late 80s

I think a lot of those who support or push the raising of the retirement age are middle class doing sedentary jobs and have no awareness of how this affects others

Again - what about folk like me?  go on invalidity for those 7 years?

To create more jobs we could all drop to a 4 day week. Get the benefit of that time off while you are young enough to enjoy it.

Work till you drop. That's the idea.

Make provision for yourself. If you're reliant on government for end of life care then you're not taking care of yourself.

That may mean moving jobs.

For me?  What job can I get at 60 that does not involving walking or standing much?

Work till you drop. That’s the idea.

Pretty much always been the idea!

The old three score year and ten - retire at 60 and you were lucky if you made it to 70.

From my point of view I fail to see what raising the pension age achieves at a societal level.

Its all about funding
When the scheme was set up there were 4 workings people t fund the retirement of 1 person
Now its 1.7 working people to fund 1 retired person
(in France)

Along with the extra costs of Healthcare from an ageing population, there are more people to fund and a decreasing number (proportion) of people paying tax.
France are looking the rebalance that, but its not going to be popular.

IIRC when the original retirement age in the UK was set it was at a similar level to average life expectancy.
The issue has come about as that age hasnt increased in line with increasing life expectancy.

Wife will be retiring this yr aged 55, she is NHS midwife comes home broken after 1 x 12hr nightshift, after 3 in a row she is physically and mentally worn out. There is no way anyone should be doing that at 67. One thing shuffling paper about at a desk getting regular breaks at 67 and working 12 hrs going many a shift without a proper break.

You just cycled half the length of Europe tj, you can't be that decrepit!

For me? What job can I get at 60 that does not involving walking or standing much?

You have 2 options:
1) Have higher contributions into a personal pension while perusing that career (eg. fire fighters)
2) Retrain into a different profession when you reach that point in time

I think a lot of those who support or push the raising of the retirement age are middle class doing sedentary jobs and have no awareness of how this affects others

Again – what about folk like me? go on invalidity for those 7 years?

I suppose the flipside of that question is "what jobs do you expect others to do to support the retired?".

Tj has a valid point about differing jobs and their toll, both physical and mental.

But if someone can legitimately claim to be incapable of productive work at age X, but easily live to X+30, that is really unsustainable.

We need to ask how, why, and how to reverse this.

(As a millenial, I know that half my generation didn't enter the work force until 21/22. And the other half at 18. Whereas the generation we are discussing, half of them started at 14. Honestly, I think tht should figure into the calculations more than it does currently.)

4. Delaying point at which you can take private pensions ie, take early retirement.

Only if you will be dependent on the state pension topping your private pension up, otherwise it is up to the rules of your scheme when you can start drawing from it.

Only if you will be dependent on the state pension topping your private pension up, otherwise it is up to the rules of your scheme when you can start drawing from it.

Not true in the UK. You can only access private pensions from at most 10 years before you're eligible for the state pension.

Not sure in the UK. You can only access private pensions from at most 10 years before you’re eligible for the state pension.

Which is why the advice is to save into a pension AND an ISA. Draw down the ISA between when you want to retire and when you collect your pension, then draw down your pension when that door opens.

Which is why the advice is to save into a pension AND an ISA. Draw down the ISA between when you want to retire and when you collect your pension, then draw down your pension when that door opens.

Totally agree. I was just addressing the point that the earliest withdrawals from your private pension isn't usually a detail of your particular scheme, but dependent on the state pension age.

Whereas the generation we are discussing, half of them started at 14. Honestly, I think tht should figure into the calculations more than it does currently.)

Rubbish, 16 at the earliest.

My two uncles who are in their late 80's started at 14 but they'd also retired on a final salary pension in their mid 50's - give them a couple more years and they'll be retired longer than they worked. And both full-on Gammons too.

its fine for those who have sedentary jobs but many of us do not but then how fair is it to have different rules for different roles?

I absolutely get this, but no one is saying you carry on doing the same job. Other jobs are available.

A friend who is a former nurse went on to teaching nursing at medical school at the end of his career, a police officer relative is now back office in the police service, many children's social workers move from front line child protection to adoption as they burn out at the end of their careers. Another friend works for a charity for an easier pace of life in his 60s.

I started work hoping to retire at 55 like my dad did. I'm now 53 and can't get my main civil service or state pension till I'm 67. I'm not happy about it, but there you go.

When the state pension came in it was assumed men would die at 68, so it funded 3 years retirement. If average life expectancy is now 76(?) we'd be working till we are 73.

The issue is how does the state support those who cannot genuinely work beyond 65

You can only access private pensions from at most 10 years before you’re eligible for the state pension.

12 years for me currently - updates to the pension access age is lagging the retirement age...

55 vs 67

Only got three more years to go...

For me? What job can I get at 60 that does not involving walking or standing much?

I've got one...

I think most people have sit-down jobs so they aren't exactly rare. Serious question though - would you prefer to be moved off a physical job onto something possibly entirely different and lower skilled when you get older, or be pensioned off? Which is better for society? I mean most of us would prefer not to work - or would we?

I mean most of us would prefer not to work – or would we?

I think I'd quite like to do something - not full time, but a bit of structure, a bit of social interaction etc...

Rubbish, 16 at the earliest.

The school leaving age was raised to 14 in 1901.[6]

* left a bit out here

Unlike the Education Act 1944 in England and Wales, the Education (Scotland) Act 1945 was largely a consolidation measure, because universal secondary education had already been in place for over a decade.[5] Plans to raise the school leaving age to 15 in the 1940s were never ratified, but increasing numbers stayed on beyond elementary education and it was eventually raised to 16 in 1973.

Source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Scotland_in_the_twentieth_century

I started work hoping to retire at 55

Dunno why, but that's somehow startling to read. When I started work I didn't know that was possible, outside of footballers and hedge fund managers!

A few people in my cycling group have retired in their early 50s....

Possibly a class thing - my dad started as an apprentice at 16 and worked til 67 - and possibly just illustrative of a confidence and sensible far-sightedness that has always been alien to me 😆

I don't know, a friend retired at 50 from the Police with a full pension (and is living a very nice life on it).

someone I know works in IT for the french Army. he initially signed up as a cadette, age 14, so has 2 years left till he retires, on full pension, at age 44 (!). He says the physical was tough till he was 40 (when it downgrades to a lower-challenge one), and he's spent the last 2 years doing an MBA on work hours.

I started work hoping to retire at 55

Dunno why, but that’s somehow startling to read.

Startling to me too. When I started work I don't think I was within miles of giving a moments thought to retirement. Maybe it is related to the total lack of financial education in schools (and in life generally, unless you happen to have a family member who is keen to discuss it). I certainly didn't start work with any kind of end game or exit strategy in mind

You just cycled half the length of Europe tj, you can’t be that decrepit!

Arthritis in my feet.  I cannot stand for long nor walk more than a couple of miles without significant pain.  If I have walked that distance or more the pain takes days to settle.  I waled around 10 miles a day at work and would be on my feet for 9 or so hours per shift.  Its deteriorating rapidly

If I could cycle around the ward I would be fine..  Cycling does not affect it as its to do with flexing of my big toes.

I worked hard but got to 58 and thought I'd had enough. I now spend lots on labour intensive industries and am a tipper (the lady in a Whitby chipshop just got a fiver) to those on low pay. My pensions get taxed so it's not as though us codgers don't contribute.

A part of the reason for becoming a nurse was the pension.  Decision taken at 18

I don’t know, a friend retired at 50 from the Police with a full pension (and is living a very nice life on it).

I think (happy to be corrected if false) that career BA pilots stopped flying at 50, but were still employed, on full pay, until retirement age. To stop them flying for anyone else.

tj - I'm not suggesting for a second that you shouldn't have retired (I'll be seriously pissed off I can't manage to retire at your age) but there are roles even in nursing that would involve less walking and physical effort.  Training; employee health screening; recruitment; could all be done sitting or sitting for large parts of the day.  Then there are the other jobs you could do.  Given how badly nurses are paid its probably not that hard to find something that uses your people skills etc.  I appreciate its not necessarily something you would want to do.  AND I do think Unions for jobs that can't go on for ever need to fight that case hard (but realistic - if everyone retires from police/fire/nursing/ambulance on "full" pension at 50 / 55 that is a "gold plated" offering compared to working to 67 for the masses).

FWIW the OP started this about France.  Where state pension age is proposed to go from 62 - 64 and they are striking over it.

What it ignores is some jobs yuo simply cannot continue to 67 or older

This argument is so weak. You may not be able to do the job you have done for the past 30 years to retirement but you can do a job. I don't expect to be able to do my job to anywhere near retirement. There are loads of jobs like that you can't expect to do until retirement it doesn't mean you can't work. If you can afford to retire good on you but it's unfair to excessively burden the working age population because you don't want to change jobs. This issue with pensions has been dependency ratios for some decades and no one has been brave enough to grasp the nettle.

Police need 30 years contributions for their full police pension - but I think that is now changed for new entrants ( not certain)

I'd still like to know what other job you guys think I should have done and where such a job is available (Its not just about me - its the majority of nurses I have met)

For example above was suggested nurse tutor.  You need ( certainly here) at least a masters and preferably a PHD. No one is going to retrain a 60 yr old,  Shop work would be out because of my feet ( B&Q are good employers for older folk) Unemployment rates for 60+ yr olds are really high.

 I don’t see any path where raising the pension age creates those extra man hours, unless the system is already under resourced by man hours, which I don’t believe is the case.

I thought in the UK we were saying that WAS an issue - there were not enough people working for economic benefit/growth.  I thought it was a key part of Rishi's message.  Personally I don't think increasing pension age is the way to fix that but I don't believe increasing retirement age is stopping a school leaver / uni graduate getting a job.

Another professional bum wiper here.
Signed up for a pension that let me retire at 55. Paid into it for 11 years, forced into a new pension that lets me retire at 67.

There's no way I'll be having people hanging off my arms at 67. My back and knees are already shot.

Is what it is. Considering stopping paying in and doing something else with the monthly amount. Just not very savvy hence why I'm in the job I'm in.

burden the working age population

Good gob, my state pension is £550 a month, after a lifetime of continuous employment. When you retire they don't put you on the civil list. In Spain or Germany pensioners get that per week.

FWIW the OP started this about France. Where state pension age is proposed to go from 62 – 64 and they are striking over it.

This is France, they strike first and find an excuse second. If they weren't upping the pension age they'd go out on strike because it's a Tuesday 😉

In Spain or Germany pensioners get that per week.

They pay higher taxes though. We generally pay lower taxes but pay into private pensions to top up the fairly minimal state pension. NB It's quite hard to compare they all, as all the schemes (and tax regimes) are different.

Nursing never was retire at 55 ( unless you took a significant cut in pension) except for a very few MH officers. Same with ambulance staff IIRC.

Those roles in Nursing are not enough to sustain all the folk reaching 60 and training needs a masters at minimum.  Other jobs?  given the high unemployment rates amongst over 60s and the lack of such jobs that do not involve walking and standing a lot - then compare that to the number of folk in my position its simply not possible for all of us or indeed for more than a few.

I don't get my state pension and will not until I am 67

I agree its an issue.  I cannot see a solution tho.  I fully expect that huge numbers of healthcare staff will be on invalidity / sick pay before they reach 67 or 68.    ON the new NHS pension scheme you cannot even go part time the last few years without having a big cut to your pension

The issue is folk like my dad.  30 years and counting retired after 38 years work.  Thats unsustainable I agree.

I just do not see a solution for folk in jobs where the physical or mental load is so high.

maybe the idea of a full career in areas which are physically taxing is a bad idea - things like nursing, builder, fireman - are all tough jobs that maybe should only be done till ~50 and then everyone ups and moves onto a more sedentry job - working the till at a shop, being an administrator for a small business, that kinda thing. Maybe its not what you want to do all your working life, but the majority of professional sports people (other than the very very top, who can afford to retire at 30) can't be paid for being sports people all their working life either - so maybe that's ok?

Not true in the UK. You can only access private pensions from at most 10 years before you’re eligible for the state pension.

Well I have done a bit of googling, though I am no tax expert. Blimey its complicated, then it is tax law.

Strictly speaking it is "before the 'Normal Minimum Pension Age'", which is increased in line with the state pension age so as to be 10 years prior. But there are let-outs for peeps in existing schemes with lower pension ages at the time the NMPA came in in 2006, or at subsequent dates when it was increased (this may be @footflaps position). Best to consult your pension provider/ adviser on the precise date that applies to you.

I don’t know, a friend retired at 50 from the Police with a full pension (and is living a very nice life on it).

Armed forces and the police are exempt from the NMPA.

maybe the idea of a full career in areas which are physically taxing is a bad idea – things like nursing, builder, fireman – are all tough jobs that maybe should only be done till ~50 and then everyone ups and moves onto a more sedentry job –

The notion that folk have a career for life is, in itself, outdated. From what I can see, my daughters generation certainly don't expect that.

I really don't see the issue in moving from a physically demanding role to one that takes less of a toll, other than folk think that some jobs are now beneath them

A part of the reason for becoming a nurse was the pension. Decision taken at 18

Is it just me,or is that a weird thing for an 18 Yr old to have been thinking. 😆 🤣

In the good old ,bad old days,valued people approaching retirement were given an easy last few years, where they could be more advisory than hands on. With all their years of acquired knowledge they would often be invaluable in training and advising younger staff that were going to take on their roles. Can't think of the last time I heard anyone say this had happened at their firm. Now, it's more often than not that the leaving person's role gets hacked up and loaded on to other staff.So they save money but have overworked,possibly more stressed out employees 👍 😕

Embrace the weirdness!  I remember a series of conversations with my mother about me training to be a nurse - relatively rare for a bloke to do in 1978!  Pros were never out of a job and good pensions  Cons were low wages.  I am a planner.  I always like and need a plan.  all a part of the great masterplan in 94 stages.

maybe the idea of a full career in areas which are physically taxing is a bad idea – things like nursing, builder, fireman – are all tough jobs that maybe should only be done till ~50 and then everyone ups and moves onto a more sedentry job – working the till at a shop, being an administrator for a small business, that kinda thing.

still an issue with shortages of those roles but this is perhaps the best idea.  t would need some government action and some sort of pathway and protection of pensions and so on with partnerships between emplyers will to take on those burnt out nurses and knackered builders

Going back to an early post, @footflaps

There are actually two different retirement ages in France, one currently 62 and one 67. I don’t fully understand the difference to be honest…

As I understand it, at 62 you can have whatever state pension your [French equivalent of NI contributions] entitles you to. At 67 you can have a full pension irrespective of contributions.

When I took early retirement my first thought was to work in the voluntary sector - on the basis that there are always jobs to be done. If the folk I'd contacted hadn't, in the main, been so bloody incompetent then that might have been a good option. Maybe they need some professional administrators 😉

This is France, they strike first and find an excuse second. If they weren’t upping the pension age they’d go out on strike because it’s a Tuesday

Funny, that's exactly what the French (and everyone else) thinks about you...

Actually, I think the French are prepared to fight for against what they (rightly or wrongly) perceive as an injustice, rather than let the government of the day walk all over them without a peep.

It's certainly a generational thing, I was on my 2nd full time career by 30 after redundancy, and I'd say that's true of the majority of my peers, or at the very least they've changed employers far more often than even I would have considered even a decade ago (about 40% of the Grads have quit in the last 6 months, a decade ago more that that would have done the full 4 years).

The idea that at 60 you could consider yourself unskilled for ANY non-manual labour role is a bit far fetched.

You might not enjoy every job, but that's not what state benefits are there to deal with 🤷 realistically at this rate will there even be a state pension under 70 by the time I retire?

will there even be a state pension under 70 by the time I retire?

With life expectancy falling right now, there may not be much need to keep upping it!

A few more decades of austerity and not many will make it 😉

A few people in my cycling group have retired in their early 50s…

same in mine. But they hugely benefited from final salary pensions, low house prices and cheaper cost of living. They usually only had 2 jobs all their lives. I completely reinvented myself in my early twenties but it now means i won't have the cash to retire until 67.

The idea that at 60 you could consider yourself unskilled for ANY non-manual labour role is a bit far fetched.

Its partly at least an issue with having specialised skills that are barely transferable. Some of the skills could be useful in other roles but would need training to go into skilled roles

Some alternative stuff I could have done with training for sure which is why I quite like the idea of having pathways into other roles that can be used at an earlier age.

The NHS has a series of pathways for ill health  / disability / redundancy within the service.  To create partnerships with other employers that would provide a pathway into less demanding roles outside the NHS sounds to be as good a solution as anyone has got close to and could be beneficial for both the employers and the staff member.

I'm just using my experience to illustrate the issues for a large cohort of people

"Work till you drop. That’s the idea.

Make provision for yourself. If you’re reliant on government for end of life care then you’re not taking care of yourself."
Good idea Chevy but it does seem somewhat unfair when some do Eg my Parents, when their siblings spent their greater working income on enjoying themselves when younger and now live on benefits and state care.

But they hugely benefited from final salary pensions, low house prices and cheaper cost of living. They usually only had 2 jobs all their lives.

gf’s parents know someone who had 2 jobs. Did I think 20 years in each, which maxed out 2 final salary pensions. Retired in late fifties to a “salary” more than they had been earning in work.

I do say a lot that I am happy to be the age that I am, overall things are far far better than the past etc. but final salary pension is the one thing I’m upset I’ve missed out on.

Did I think 20 years in each, which maxed out 2 final salary pensions.......... more than they had been earning in work.

I very much doubt that given final salary pensions usually need 40 years contributions to maxout to give 50% or 66% of salary  NHS one I was on was 80ths - so 40years contributions would give half of your final salary.  I think civil service was 60ths.

A few people in my cycling group have retired in their early 50s….

I did,just haven’t told work yet 🙂

Just kidding, but my private pension fund did recently ask me if I wanted to start taking my pension, twas a shocker tbh.

Those roles in Nursing are not enough to sustain all the folk reaching 60 and training needs a masters at minimum

He's got a standard teaching certificate. And years of valuable experience. I'm not sure exactly which part of the nursing course he taught, but he was employed to teach some of it.

With the people skills nursing use, customer service call centre work would be an option in many areas?

As for planning to retire at 55, yep, started working in 1987 at 18. Work pension could be claimed from 55, in full from 60. Also put money aside in a couple of savings plans to help it along. Bought my first house for £36k in 1990 when I was on about £10k a year, maxed myself to get it and had to sell my car.

I looked into doing nurse tutoring / training. Masters was the minimum here  PHD preferred.

I looked into doing nurse tutoring / training. Masters was the minimum here PHD preferred.

I bet Mr Tutor MSc, PhD, would be **** all use teaching how to do the hands on skills of nursing, but such is the world we are now living in, sadly.

Those who can, do, those who can't, teach lecture

Folk who will be relying on the State Pension for the majority of their retirement income will, like they've always been, poor.

When I was younger, you started a job and (if they had one), they just added you into the pension scheme. It's different now, and folk need to put more effort into making sure they're saving into pensions and the like.

The State Pension age isn't the age we retire at, it's just the point when the State Pension starts to pay out. Some folk will retire before, and some after. Some from choice, and some from necessity.

While you can't take it with, money does help while you're here...

Those who can, do, those who can’t, teach lecture

That's a bit of a harsh sweeping statement there MCTD*.
My own experience is very different,the many talented,inspirational,selfless and caring teachers/lecturers that I have met and worked with give me hope.
*I am sorry if you may have witnessed nothing but chancers and lightweights.

Don't you now have to opt out of the pension scheme? I thought they changed the rules.

Police pension used to be 2/3rds after 30 years. In 2006 it changed to 35 years for a half final salary pension. The scheme changed again in 2015. Complicated. Based on career average not final salary. I doubt it improved.

But public sector final salary pensions had to change. Should I make 90 like my dad did I will have been drawing my occupational pension for longer than I paid in to it.

I'm interested to see how many cops get full pensions now. Typically new entrants are older averaging 26. So roughly half new entrants will reach compulsory retiral age at 60 before getting full pension.

Of course how many cops will be physically capable of doing the job in their late 50s is another question.

The year I retired I still passed the public order fitness test but I wasn't typical.

I was in Tours today. The city was at a standstill. Banners, flags, people of all ages getting loud and shouty. They even had a stall giving out hot soup.

Looked like fun.

My uncle retired at 52.... Partner at Lloyd's, no wife, no kids. Now 83 and one of the happiest and content people I know. His hobby is investing money and then handing out the profits before the taxman might start showing an interest.
His friends, neighbours, family or anyone else in need has benefited over the years. He paid my mate's mortgage back in 2008 for six months when the financial crisis hit the building industry at the sane time as his second child turning up. Inspirational guy, my uncle. However, he could afford to chuck in work. He was lucky.

My mum worked for 35 years, retired at 62 and died at 68. She was less lucky.

In Spain or Germany pensioners get that per week.

As @footflaps said, the tax contributions are much higher.

When my GF started he first job on 42k€ her friends in London were very impressed. However, they were less impressed with the idea of 45% of each month's wages disappearing to the state before landing on your account.

Stupidly, I left the UK with only 9 years NI contributions, 8 of those as self employed (you need 10 for the min state pension). In Germany I set myself up self employed and decided not to pay into the state scheme as the return was crap. Instead I've piled the excess into various fund and share accounts.

Figure I'm going to have to work till I die, whenever that may be, so have decided to semi-retire at 40. I plan to use my body doing the things I enjoy whilst still able to do them.
Have sold all my possessions, have only the things that will fit into my van. It's quite liberating.

I view to buy something somewhere eventually, but it won't be anything fancy. Nor big. Nor somewhere cold.

There are lots of things one can do when old. I think you need to do something to give yourself a sense of self worth and to fill the time.

My old man has been retired for 12 years now. He's a miserable, resentful old git who spends his days sitting in the same chair, looking at the same view from the window, playing the same bloody game (solitaire, FFS) and occasionally reading the Daily Mail when my sister can bring herself to buy a copy. Honestly, it's depressing.

Given the choice of his existence or working and doing something then I'll take the former. If not that, then death.

used to be 2/3rds after 30 years

that was very generous. 1/45ths per year of final salary, multiplied by the HMRC 20x multiplier for tax purposes, means that 44% of your salary was effectively being saved on top of the salary. Our DB was 1/60th per annum so an extra third on top of salary, since closed and DC is now 10% of salary as contributions from the company, effectively spending a third of what the DB pension used to cost. And that is why DB pensions closed.

Public sector pensions are not paid by contributions from government into a fund. They are paid by national debt.

Public sector pensions are not paid by contributions from government into a fund. They are paid by national debt.

Yes - and the government took our contributions and spent them.  NHS pensions still pay out less each year than they take in

some public sector pensions do have a fund

My "gold plated" pension was 80ths

My “gold plated” pension was 80ths

Plus tax free cash or cash by commutation?

The USS (universities superannuation scheme) is the largest private pension fund in the UK. It’s one of the reasons it’s in the news so often. Has a mix of DB and career average and DC too I think. I have five years in that. And 22 years in my company DB pension before it closed.

Your pension contributions never came close to the true investment cost for the return required in the private sector (multiply your annual pension by 20 to give you an approximate idea of the pot you’d need). The 20x valuation is still lower that the annuity rates that are 25-30x. A pot of £100k will buy you a single person annual pension of £5k that grows at 3%. From 65.

DC savers will struggle to retire at 55.

https://www.hl.co.uk/retirement/annuities/best-buy-rates

Millennial Tension: Why would anyone save for a pension

Might be worth a listen.....

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vUE1PNDQ0MjUyMzQ5OA/episode/MTY3NDZkZmUtOTczNy0xMWVkLTkyMTYtZmY4MWE0Y2IxNDRm?ep=14

Actually if you look at my numbers and my contributions had been matched by the government and adding investment growth what my pension is worth would be pretty close to what I have contributed.  Ive done the sums.

There has been a huge propaganda campaign of lies about this and many of us accepted the lowish salary for pension.  think of it as deferred pay if it makes you happier

I do agree reform is need but scapegoating us is not helpful.  It plays into the tories divide and conquer rhetoric.  the problem is private pension funds were allowed to close and take contribution holiday in the boom times

also take into account that many NHS pensioners would be reliant on benefits without the pension.  Average NHS pension is under £8000 pa.