Another professional bum wiper here.
Signed up for a pension that let me retire at 55. Paid into it for 11 years, forced into a new pension that lets me retire at 67.
There's no way I'll be having people hanging off my arms at 67. My back and knees are already shot.
Is what it is. Considering stopping paying in and doing something else with the monthly amount. Just not very savvy hence why I'm in the job I'm in.
burden the working age population
Good gob, my state pension is £550 a month, after a lifetime of continuous employment. When you retire they don't put you on the civil list. In Spain or Germany pensioners get that per week.
FWIW the OP started this about France. Where state pension age is proposed to go from 62 – 64 and they are striking over it.
This is France, they strike first and find an excuse second. If they weren't upping the pension age they'd go out on strike because it's a Tuesday 😉
In Spain or Germany pensioners get that per week.
They pay higher taxes though. We generally pay lower taxes but pay into private pensions to top up the fairly minimal state pension. NB It's quite hard to compare they all, as all the schemes (and tax regimes) are different.
Nursing never was retire at 55 ( unless you took a significant cut in pension) except for a very few MH officers. Same with ambulance staff IIRC.
Those roles in Nursing are not enough to sustain all the folk reaching 60 and training needs a masters at minimum. Other jobs? given the high unemployment rates amongst over 60s and the lack of such jobs that do not involve walking and standing a lot - then compare that to the number of folk in my position its simply not possible for all of us or indeed for more than a few.
I don't get my state pension and will not until I am 67
I agree its an issue. I cannot see a solution tho. I fully expect that huge numbers of healthcare staff will be on invalidity / sick pay before they reach 67 or 68. ON the new NHS pension scheme you cannot even go part time the last few years without having a big cut to your pension
The issue is folk like my dad. 30 years and counting retired after 38 years work. Thats unsustainable I agree.
I just do not see a solution for folk in jobs where the physical or mental load is so high.
maybe the idea of a full career in areas which are physically taxing is a bad idea - things like nursing, builder, fireman - are all tough jobs that maybe should only be done till ~50 and then everyone ups and moves onto a more sedentry job - working the till at a shop, being an administrator for a small business, that kinda thing. Maybe its not what you want to do all your working life, but the majority of professional sports people (other than the very very top, who can afford to retire at 30) can't be paid for being sports people all their working life either - so maybe that's ok?
Not true in the UK. You can only access private pensions from at most 10 years before you’re eligible for the state pension.
Well I have done a bit of googling, though I am no tax expert. Blimey its complicated, then it is tax law.
Strictly speaking it is "before the 'Normal Minimum Pension Age'", which is increased in line with the state pension age so as to be 10 years prior. But there are let-outs for peeps in existing schemes with lower pension ages at the time the NMPA came in in 2006, or at subsequent dates when it was increased (this may be @footflaps position). Best to consult your pension provider/ adviser on the precise date that applies to you.
I don’t know, a friend retired at 50 from the Police with a full pension (and is living a very nice life on it).
Armed forces and the police are exempt from the NMPA.
maybe the idea of a full career in areas which are physically taxing is a bad idea – things like nursing, builder, fireman – are all tough jobs that maybe should only be done till ~50 and then everyone ups and moves onto a more sedentry job –
The notion that folk have a career for life is, in itself, outdated. From what I can see, my daughters generation certainly don't expect that.
I really don't see the issue in moving from a physically demanding role to one that takes less of a toll, other than folk think that some jobs are now beneath them
A part of the reason for becoming a nurse was the pension. Decision taken at 18
Is it just me,or is that a weird thing for an 18 Yr old to have been thinking. 😆 🤣
In the good old ,bad old days,valued people approaching retirement were given an easy last few years, where they could be more advisory than hands on. With all their years of acquired knowledge they would often be invaluable in training and advising younger staff that were going to take on their roles. Can't think of the last time I heard anyone say this had happened at their firm. Now, it's more often than not that the leaving person's role gets hacked up and loaded on to other staff.So they save money but have overworked,possibly more stressed out employees 👍 😕
Embrace the weirdness! I remember a series of conversations with my mother about me training to be a nurse - relatively rare for a bloke to do in 1978! Pros were never out of a job and good pensions Cons were low wages. I am a planner. I always like and need a plan. all a part of the great masterplan in 94 stages.
maybe the idea of a full career in areas which are physically taxing is a bad idea – things like nursing, builder, fireman – are all tough jobs that maybe should only be done till ~50 and then everyone ups and moves onto a more sedentry job – working the till at a shop, being an administrator for a small business, that kinda thing.
still an issue with shortages of those roles but this is perhaps the best idea. t would need some government action and some sort of pathway and protection of pensions and so on with partnerships between emplyers will to take on those burnt out nurses and knackered builders
Going back to an early post, @footflaps
There are actually two different retirement ages in France, one currently 62 and one 67. I don’t fully understand the difference to be honest…
As I understand it, at 62 you can have whatever state pension your [French equivalent of NI contributions] entitles you to. At 67 you can have a full pension irrespective of contributions.
When I took early retirement my first thought was to work in the voluntary sector - on the basis that there are always jobs to be done. If the folk I'd contacted hadn't, in the main, been so bloody incompetent then that might have been a good option. Maybe they need some professional administrators 😉
This is France, they strike first and find an excuse second. If they weren’t upping the pension age they’d go out on strike because it’s a Tuesday
Funny, that's exactly what the French (and everyone else) thinks about you...
Actually, I think the French are prepared to fight for against what they (rightly or wrongly) perceive as an injustice, rather than let the government of the day walk all over them without a peep.
It's certainly a generational thing, I was on my 2nd full time career by 30 after redundancy, and I'd say that's true of the majority of my peers, or at the very least they've changed employers far more often than even I would have considered even a decade ago (about 40% of the Grads have quit in the last 6 months, a decade ago more that that would have done the full 4 years).
The idea that at 60 you could consider yourself unskilled for ANY non-manual labour role is a bit far fetched.
You might not enjoy every job, but that's not what state benefits are there to deal with 🤷 realistically at this rate will there even be a state pension under 70 by the time I retire?
will there even be a state pension under 70 by the time I retire?
With life expectancy falling right now, there may not be much need to keep upping it!
A few more decades of austerity and not many will make it 😉
A few people in my cycling group have retired in their early 50s…
same in mine. But they hugely benefited from final salary pensions, low house prices and cheaper cost of living. They usually only had 2 jobs all their lives. I completely reinvented myself in my early twenties but it now means i won't have the cash to retire until 67.
The idea that at 60 you could consider yourself unskilled for ANY non-manual labour role is a bit far fetched.
Its partly at least an issue with having specialised skills that are barely transferable. Some of the skills could be useful in other roles but would need training to go into skilled roles
Some alternative stuff I could have done with training for sure which is why I quite like the idea of having pathways into other roles that can be used at an earlier age.
The NHS has a series of pathways for ill health / disability / redundancy within the service. To create partnerships with other employers that would provide a pathway into less demanding roles outside the NHS sounds to be as good a solution as anyone has got close to and could be beneficial for both the employers and the staff member.
I'm just using my experience to illustrate the issues for a large cohort of people
"Work till you drop. That’s the idea.
Make provision for yourself. If you’re reliant on government for end of life care then you’re not taking care of yourself."
Good idea Chevy but it does seem somewhat unfair when some do Eg my Parents, when their siblings spent their greater working income on enjoying themselves when younger and now live on benefits and state care.
But they hugely benefited from final salary pensions, low house prices and cheaper cost of living. They usually only had 2 jobs all their lives.
gf’s parents know someone who had 2 jobs. Did I think 20 years in each, which maxed out 2 final salary pensions. Retired in late fifties to a “salary” more than they had been earning in work.
I do say a lot that I am happy to be the age that I am, overall things are far far better than the past etc. but final salary pension is the one thing I’m upset I’ve missed out on.
Did I think 20 years in each, which maxed out 2 final salary pensions.......... more than they had been earning in work.
I very much doubt that given final salary pensions usually need 40 years contributions to maxout to give 50% or 66% of salary NHS one I was on was 80ths - so 40years contributions would give half of your final salary. I think civil service was 60ths.
A few people in my cycling group have retired in their early 50s….
I did,just haven’t told work yet 🙂
Just kidding, but my private pension fund did recently ask me if I wanted to start taking my pension, twas a shocker tbh.
Those roles in Nursing are not enough to sustain all the folk reaching 60 and training needs a masters at minimum
He's got a standard teaching certificate. And years of valuable experience. I'm not sure exactly which part of the nursing course he taught, but he was employed to teach some of it.
With the people skills nursing use, customer service call centre work would be an option in many areas?
As for planning to retire at 55, yep, started working in 1987 at 18. Work pension could be claimed from 55, in full from 60. Also put money aside in a couple of savings plans to help it along. Bought my first house for £36k in 1990 when I was on about £10k a year, maxed myself to get it and had to sell my car.
I looked into doing nurse tutoring / training. Masters was the minimum here PHD preferred.
I looked into doing nurse tutoring / training. Masters was the minimum here PHD preferred.
I bet Mr Tutor MSc, PhD, would be **** all use teaching how to do the hands on skills of nursing, but such is the world we are now living in, sadly.
Those who can, do, those who can't, teach lecture
Folk who will be relying on the State Pension for the majority of their retirement income will, like they've always been, poor.
When I was younger, you started a job and (if they had one), they just added you into the pension scheme. It's different now, and folk need to put more effort into making sure they're saving into pensions and the like.
The State Pension age isn't the age we retire at, it's just the point when the State Pension starts to pay out. Some folk will retire before, and some after. Some from choice, and some from necessity.
While you can't take it with, money does help while you're here...
Those who can, do, those who can’t,
teachlecture
That's a bit of a harsh sweeping statement there MCTD*.
My own experience is very different,the many talented,inspirational,selfless and caring teachers/lecturers that I have met and worked with give me hope.
*I am sorry if you may have witnessed nothing but chancers and lightweights.
Don't you now have to opt out of the pension scheme? I thought they changed the rules.
Police pension used to be 2/3rds after 30 years. In 2006 it changed to 35 years for a half final salary pension. The scheme changed again in 2015. Complicated. Based on career average not final salary. I doubt it improved.
But public sector final salary pensions had to change. Should I make 90 like my dad did I will have been drawing my occupational pension for longer than I paid in to it.
I'm interested to see how many cops get full pensions now. Typically new entrants are older averaging 26. So roughly half new entrants will reach compulsory retiral age at 60 before getting full pension.
Of course how many cops will be physically capable of doing the job in their late 50s is another question.
The year I retired I still passed the public order fitness test but I wasn't typical.
I was in Tours today. The city was at a standstill. Banners, flags, people of all ages getting loud and shouty. They even had a stall giving out hot soup.
Looked like fun.
My uncle retired at 52.... Partner at Lloyd's, no wife, no kids. Now 83 and one of the happiest and content people I know. His hobby is investing money and then handing out the profits before the taxman might start showing an interest.
His friends, neighbours, family or anyone else in need has benefited over the years. He paid my mate's mortgage back in 2008 for six months when the financial crisis hit the building industry at the sane time as his second child turning up. Inspirational guy, my uncle. However, he could afford to chuck in work. He was lucky.
My mum worked for 35 years, retired at 62 and died at 68. She was less lucky.
In Spain or Germany pensioners get that per week.
As @footflaps said, the tax contributions are much higher.
When my GF started he first job on 42k€ her friends in London were very impressed. However, they were less impressed with the idea of 45% of each month's wages disappearing to the state before landing on your account.
Stupidly, I left the UK with only 9 years NI contributions, 8 of those as self employed (you need 10 for the min state pension). In Germany I set myself up self employed and decided not to pay into the state scheme as the return was crap. Instead I've piled the excess into various fund and share accounts.
Figure I'm going to have to work till I die, whenever that may be, so have decided to semi-retire at 40. I plan to use my body doing the things I enjoy whilst still able to do them.
Have sold all my possessions, have only the things that will fit into my van. It's quite liberating.
I view to buy something somewhere eventually, but it won't be anything fancy. Nor big. Nor somewhere cold.
There are lots of things one can do when old. I think you need to do something to give yourself a sense of self worth and to fill the time.
My old man has been retired for 12 years now. He's a miserable, resentful old git who spends his days sitting in the same chair, looking at the same view from the window, playing the same bloody game (solitaire, FFS) and occasionally reading the Daily Mail when my sister can bring herself to buy a copy. Honestly, it's depressing.
Given the choice of his existence or working and doing something then I'll take the former. If not that, then death.
used to be 2/3rds after 30 years
that was very generous. 1/45ths per year of final salary, multiplied by the HMRC 20x multiplier for tax purposes, means that 44% of your salary was effectively being saved on top of the salary. Our DB was 1/60th per annum so an extra third on top of salary, since closed and DC is now 10% of salary as contributions from the company, effectively spending a third of what the DB pension used to cost. And that is why DB pensions closed.
Public sector pensions are not paid by contributions from government into a fund. They are paid by national debt.
Public sector pensions are not paid by contributions from government into a fund. They are paid by national debt.
Yes - and the government took our contributions and spent them. NHS pensions still pay out less each year than they take in
some public sector pensions do have a fund
My "gold plated" pension was 80ths
My “gold plated” pension was 80ths
Plus tax free cash or cash by commutation?
The USS (universities superannuation scheme) is the largest private pension fund in the UK. It’s one of the reasons it’s in the news so often. Has a mix of DB and career average and DC too I think. I have five years in that. And 22 years in my company DB pension before it closed.
Your pension contributions never came close to the true investment cost for the return required in the private sector (multiply your annual pension by 20 to give you an approximate idea of the pot you’d need). The 20x valuation is still lower that the annuity rates that are 25-30x. A pot of £100k will buy you a single person annual pension of £5k that grows at 3%. From 65.
DC savers will struggle to retire at 55.
https://www.hl.co.uk/retirement/annuities/best-buy-rates
Millennial Tension: Why would anyone save for a pension
Might be worth a listen.....
Actually if you look at my numbers and my contributions had been matched by the government and adding investment growth what my pension is worth would be pretty close to what I have contributed. Ive done the sums.
There has been a huge propaganda campaign of lies about this and many of us accepted the lowish salary for pension. think of it as deferred pay if it makes you happier
I do agree reform is need but scapegoating us is not helpful. It plays into the tories divide and conquer rhetoric. the problem is private pension funds were allowed to close and take contribution holiday in the boom times
also take into account that many NHS pensioners would be reliant on benefits without the pension. Average NHS pension is under £8000 pa.
NHS pensioners on the scheme I was on which is now closed don't retire at 55 unless you take a hugely lower pension. 60 was the normal age
Its now 67 ( going up to 68 ) and its career average not final salary
You can access the pension at 55. Just you take a penalty (for the extra years of drawing it).
Some can take it still at 50 (a 'protected pension age') if their scheme allowed that when they joined and have remained in it since before April 2006. I know this for sure... as I have done exactly that !!
As for the point of why getting older people to work longer. There's 2 other reasons.
1. It suppresses the employment market in terms of pay (enables the employers get away with not paying as much - supply and demand etc). And guess what - that's what Tories want - employers getting to pay less to workers.
2. It masks the lack of proper training of the younger people for a few years longer - by having the skilled older workers (riding off the back of the decades of the past when people had proper apprenticeships rather than spending to train younger). I'm in an industry where there was a 10 year gap in meaningful recruitment due to Tory decisions in the 1990s. I was one of the last in before it stopped. Now there's a 10+ year gap of experienced people (engineers in my case) behind me. A huge hole where the late 30s and 40-somethings should be. And those older than me (mid 50s to their 70s) all now retired or heading that way. Great for me personally- more work than I can shake a stick at. But shiiiite for the industry and the overall economy. But hey, that's just the typical result of British short term ism and no planning or strategy for anything.
If we want funds for services and retired what we actually need is the opposite- slightly skilled highly educated people in high paid jobs. But this Gov wants to have poorly paid lowly plebs who do as they are told in the masses instead.
You can access the pension at 55. Just you take a penalty (for the extra years of drawing it).
Some can take it still at 50 (a 'protected pension age') if their scheme allowed that when they joined and have remained in it since before April 2006. I know this for sure... as I have done exactly that !!
As for the point of why getting older people to work longer. There's 2 other reasons.
1. It suppresses the employment market in terms of pay (enables the employers get away with not paying as much - supply and demand etc). And guess what - that's what Tories want - employers getting to pay less to workers.
2. It masks the lack of proper training of the younger people for a few years longer - by having the skilled older workers (riding off the back of the decades of the past when people had proper apprenticeships rather than spending to train younger). I'm in an industry where there was a 10 year gap in meaningful recruitment due to Tory decisions in the 1990s. I was one of the last in before it stopped. Now there's a 10+ year gap of experienced people (engineers in my case) behind me. A huge hole where the late 30s and 40-somethings should be. And those older than me (mid 50s to their 70s) all now retired or heading that way. Great for me personally- more work than I can shake a stick at. But shiiiite for the industry and the overall economy. But hey, that's just the typical result of British short term ism and no planning or strategy for anything.
If we want funds for services and retired what we actually need is the opposite- slightly skilled highly educated people in high paid jobs. But this Gov wants to have poorly paid lowly plebs who do as they are told in the masses instead.
Plus tax free cash or cash by commutation?
No. Cash lump sum is an option which reduces headline pension.
You can access the teachers pension at 55, if you started long enough ago to be on the old scheme. You lose 5% per year before 60. No longer final salary but career average. Lump sum has gone. Tracks CPI not RPI (or other way round, which ever is less). They changed payment structures so pay is earned on working days not spread across the year. Which means if you strike or need to take unpaid time off or buy back days there is a much bigger effect.
I'm old enough to be half and half but I may need to work part time after 60 to pay the bills. The problem is as it won't be full time my reduced wage will effect my career average salary.
Me having to work part time makes it harder to find someone to take up my role. Few younger staff are willing to move to the borders for a part time job. I'll be job blocking. As the employer knows this they will only, currently, agree to folk going to 4 days. Which means no new staff and increase pressure on current staff to cover that day.
I’m old enough to be half and half but I may need to work part time after 60 to pay the bills. The problem is as it won’t be full time my reduced wage will effect my career average salary.
How old are you now?
That's counter to the advice I was given (both from an adviser and ringing them up). I was told that if you were in the two schemes you had to come out of both at the same time - so if you wanted the final salary element at sixty you needed to effectively take the average salary section early (with the penalty).
It's a mute point for me as I switched from the English to the Scottish scheme in 2020 and after the fire service age discrimination case all my English service is now in the final salary scheme and my average earnings service is in the Scottish scheme.
Those who can, do, those who can’t, teach lecture
That’s a bit of a harsh sweeping statement there MCTD*.
Sorry, I missed the 😉,but it's a well known phrase and in my head I thought it was obvious it wasn't meant to be taken literally.
No offence to the talented and dedicated teachers on here.
Its now 67 ( going up to 68 ) and its career average not final salary
Yep, wife works for NHS and she would have loved to retire at 60. It is an area where the equality case was used in the wrong way, i.e. raise everyone up to 67 rather than lowering everyone down to 60.
It is not just physically demanding jobs where older people are not at their best. Most people are just simply not as enthusiastic as they were when they were 30 or 40 and just waiting to retire. I am still motivated at 55 but can't see me being the same at 60.
Another option is for part time to become more of a mainstream option as being 60 and working 2 or 3 days a week is more attractive than 5 days a week.
Was listening to Macron last night on the radio, he is framing the increase an ensuring social/financial justice/equity between the generations. I guess implying that if the older works don't pay a bit more in (by working longer), the younger ones will have to, in order to pay for the older worker's pensions....
That's how the maths works out.. if people retire at a younger age, and live for longer, they are even less likely to have contributed enough in the past to cover their post retirement expense to the state and it's more for the (shrinking as a proportion) working population to carry. While I see the point that it's freezing young people out of some jobs, it's not true for the total unless you have a shrinking job pool, and some jobs aren't accessible to older people anyway.
Same argument also applies for why we need children by the way ;-). Not only do very old people need help for some things, they have large expenses and someone needs to pay for those large expenses, and it's not going to be covered by what you paid in 30 years ago..