[Closed] Question for French speakers

I thought this was going to be asking for the french equivalent of brexit. I'm going with fortie

Can someone explain why that phrase is constructed like that?

Non, pardon.

To answer the original question I offer you nothing but a Gallic shrug

I speak French but like many speakers, my technical knowledge of grammar is not great. "Let them..." couldn't be translated; the French expression means literally: "That they eat of the cake."

Do you mean grammatically not cake vs brioche?

Brioche is feminine and used in this phrase as "uncountable" (some vs that one) so that is why [i]de la brioche[/i]

Its present tense plural (Ils) so manger is conjugated to ils mang[u]ent[/u]

Qu' is I guess "just how they'd say it" ... literal translation it seems weird perhaps to English speakers but "that they" is how it would be said.

If you translated literally it would be "laisse les" but that's just not really how it would be phrased... or perhaps something a child might say (or someone translating from another language)... it would be understandable just not "the way people say it"...

I guess there are lots of ways we say stuff in English where it's just the way we say it .... and would sound weird

Yes, I can...

Using 'que' like that to start a phrase is a rather formal way of constructing the imperative. The 'que' forces the next part of the phrase into the subjunctive

Literally "That they eat brioche" - You could interpret it as '(let it be)that they eat brioche" but the typical translation is, as you say "let them eat brioche"

Do you mean grammatically not cake vs brioche?

Yes.

Using 'que' like that to start a phrase is a rather formal way of constructing the imperative.

That makes sense, ta 🙂

I like to learn languages via grammar... not that 18th century French is particuarly relevant ofc.. I was just curious.

What would a more modern or casual version be?

Me too! I is grammar nerd 😉

I like to learn languages via grammar... not that 18th century French is particuarly relevant ofc.. I was just curious.

It still sounds current if formal to me.... what you'd read in Le Monde vs Figaro

I'm terrible at grammar and learned French very informally then had to learn the grammar later! This has improved my English grammar though so not wasted.

A really good example is literature.... I find Passe Historique (e.g. Dumas) really simple (if antiquated) whereas informal (Camus) I need to really think hard about every sentence or you can completely pick up the wrong end of the stick.

Oh it's still quite correct in contemporary French, just rather formal. In Astérix et Cleopatre she speaks like this all the time. It's a rather formal thing to say in English too when you think about it.

You could say

Je m'en fous, ils peuvent manger de la gateau - ça m'est égal !

- I don't give a toss, they can eat cake - makes no odds to me!

.. or any number of other similar phrases 🙂

Funny you should mention Camus. I found it relatively easy to read, BUT I got totally the wrong end of this stick when he goes to his mother's funeral and the director shows him a 'bière' and offers to open it for him and is then chagrined when he doesn't want him too.

Made more sense once I found out it can also mean 'coffin' 😉

(L'étranger)

Bof...

Funny you should mention Camus. I found it relatively easy to read

I found it easy to read in some ways... it was just how much subtlety I was missing. I read L'etranger when I was going through a more formal phase with an actual teacher and she demonstrated just how much I missed when she got me to break down each paragraph... Funny thing is I can barely remember the story, now you mention the enterrement I remember it but I think I must have read the book a paragraph at a time.

My recollection is that Camus is a very compact and efficient informal style and he packed in a huge amount of information in a minimum number of words... very elegant but the sort of thing you have to make sure you get every bit correct.

By habit I'm a speed reader so it's easier to me to have more words with less emphasis on each word...

Yes very true - he's rather like Hemingway. Very dry and compact prose but with as you say much hidden depth. I rather like that. I know what you mean about the past historic (pretorite) it is much simpler to an English way of thinking. I'm currently reading through 'le premier homme' which is good but a bit harder going.

[quote=GavinT ] I got totally the wrong end of this stick when he goes to his mother's funeral and the director shows him a 'bière' and offers to open it for him and is then chagrined when he doesn't want him too.
Made more sense once I found out it can also mean 'coffin'
(L'étranger)

I didn't know that, either, but it does seem to make sense as in english a Bier is "a movable frame on which a coffin or a corpse is placed before burial or cremation or on which they are carried to the grave"

Que vous soyez bon ou mauvais, sachez que vos efforts en Français sont appréciés. Ce n'est pas dur, je dirais même que c'est du gâteau. 😉

Some interesting similar examples here:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CbqqOAxZbsoC&pg=PA131&lpg=PA131&dq=grammar+qu%27ils+mangent+de+la+brioche&source=bl&ots=uVBw_aBV-n&sig=pSAbnK_jaoVIkz_Q7uov02vKgEc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6zNLOxr_TAhVE2xoKHSnKBhUQ6AEINjAC#v=onepage&q=grammar%20qu%27ils%20mangent%20de%20la%20brioche&f=false

I always thought "je m'en fous" meant - "I'm fed up of it"

?

Dommage.

Molly what's gets me is cake is a deliberate mistranslation to make what she said sound a bit worse, brioche is a type of bread what she realy meant is if there is no pain/baguette etc why don't they eat brioche. Obviously out of touch but not as bad ?

I'm fed up is "j'en ai ras le bol/cul"

I couldn't care less is "je m'en tape/fous"

bol and tape are the less offensive options

I'm fed up is "j'en ai ras le bol/cul"

Indeed! Or we could go with the old favourite "J'en ai marre" 🙂

vous soyez

This subjuncive lark is as confusing as noun cases in German.

Obviously out of touch but not as bad ?

Side-track but - seriously? When they said 'the poor have no bread to eat' I don't think they were complaining they had to eat their camembert and olives with just the vin. Bread in this case means basic sustenance. So if Marie Antoinette thought that the riot was just becaues they had no bread when there was plenty of brioche to go round, she was being implausibly stupid, or deliberately callous.

Although it appears that whilst I knew she probably didn't say that, it appears history does not accurately record if she said anything at all or if any of it happened.

Molly what's gets me is cake is a deliberate mistranslation to make what she said sound a bit worse, brioche is a type of bread what she realy meant is if there is no pain/baguette etc why don't they eat brioche. Obviously out of touch but not as bad ?

Well yes at least - it's highly likely she never said any such thing. The French never really took to her due to her being Austrian. The expression came from an older tale and was attributed to her but there's no evidence she really said it.

But you can't use that to exonerate the French ruling classes of the time, can you?

Using 'que' like that to start a phrase is a rather formal way of constructing the imperative. The 'que' forces the next part of the phrase into the subjunctive

Same in Spanish, although not that formal as the (oft used) phrase "Que se jodan" shows.

This subjunctive lark is as confusing as noun cases in German.

Oui, il faut qu'on sache employer le subjontif! 😉

We do use it in English too - it's just that most people have forgotten about it.
'it is important that he *be* on time' (not is)

"J'en ai marre"

I can never stop thinking of the Smiths when I hear that

Haha! yes there a theory that they made up their names from:

J'en ai marre - Johnny Marr
Moi aussi - Morrissey

but it's probably 'bidon' 😉

@GavinT - from what I remember of being taught French at school, the subjunctive is much more common in French than English. The usual example of the use of the subjunctive is "If I were you ...". But as you say, most in instances we don't recognise it. Then again we don't usually learn grammar of our native language, it tends to be the scaffolding on which we hang learning of foreign tongues.

[quote=GavinT ]
We do use it in English too - it's just that most people have forgotten about it.

the most well-known version is "If I were a rich man, a yabba-dabba-dabba-dabba-dabba-dee" etc etc

Absolutely - the French subjunctive is very common whereas the English is rarer and dying out. It sounds fine most of the time if you don't bother with it but the French would definitely correct you.

the most well-known version is "If I were a rich man, a yabba-dabba-dabba-dabba-dabba-dee" etc etc

But then Midge Ure came along and let the side down. Falling standards... 😉

BTW - anyone near Marple? French group tomorrow night, last wednesday of the month at 8pm in the Ring o'Bells if you want to come and talk rubbish in french for a couple of hours

https://twitter.com/marplefrench

Right. Whilst we're on the French, and cake......

Mrs. Mugsy. Bless here will bake a 'cake' now and again. However I often let it be known that I am very appreciative, but next time perhaps she should consider making 2 of what she made, and put some icing between them..... I don't think I've ever come across a home-made cake here, that is what I would call a cake.

Every time!!!! I just wish I could have MY cake like I want it and eat it.

Yes very true - he's rather like Hemingway. Very dry and compact prose but with as you say much hidden depth. I rather like that. I know what you mean about the past historic (pretorite) it is much simpler to an English way of thinking. I'm currently reading through 'le premier homme' which is good but a bit harder going.

I should probably do some recreational French reading .. other than technical reports/presentations I'm way out of practice.

Having lived and worked in a lot of places I have various levels of different languages (though French is by far the best) and annoyingly many colleagues think I pick languages up easily... which just isn't the case... I get enough oral quite easily but after that grammar is always a huge slog... not least in French due to the fact it's massacred by the youth so I ended up picking up incorrect usage...

I'm just really bad at sitting with a grammar text book ... partially since I understand so little of our own English grammar.

Yeah - I've been studying for ages and spent quite a lot of time in Duolingo. So much so that I ended up as a mod and course contributor. This meant I really needed to brush up my grammar so as not to make a fool of myself when trying to answer queries.

My favourite thing I've read in French so far is probably the 'le petit Nicolas' series. Superficially kids books but with a lot of knowing humour and utterly charming. Plus they're dead easy! 🙂

I do need to do a lot more learning. I need a grammar reference and then probably some kids' books.

Secret confessions ... I'm not proud of it 😀 but the translation of Harry Potter into French is just awesome. A friend of mine who's a translator by both study and profession practically cried.... it's almost like they have been rewritten rather than translated.

I'm pulling an "in my defence" and speculating JK actually chose the translator and was actively involved ... (Given she studies at the Sorbonne and has been really active with the films)

Best grammar book I've read:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/English-Grammar-Students-French-Learning/dp/0934034370

Can be found cheaper with a bit of googling.

It explains clearly how English functions on a particular point and then goes on to explain how French is similar/differs.

It really helps get over that obstacle that most of us don't really understand the grammar of our own language.

My wife has those books, but I must say I don't want to read them. HP pisses me off.

Not sure I want to learn French grammar with reference to English.. I think that saying French X is like English Y makes it sound the same when it's not.

That not really what it's about. The books don't really teach french at all. They explain - for example - what subject / object pronouns are and how to use them. This is the sort of thing that people often struggle with when learning any language as they know their own grammar intuitively but often haven't examined it.

Still if you have them available to you you'll know what they're about and if it works for you or not. I found it helpful.

(not sure what HP means)

I haven't studied grammar directly for a while now - I just immerse myself in French TV, music and books. Occasionally looking something up if I can't work it out.

🙂

/edit - you're talking about Harry Potter aren't you... Je vais chercher mon manteau.

not sure what HP means

HP = Harry Potter

While we've got you here Gavin...why is it that the infinitive of the verb is used sometimes and sometimes the second person (sing/plur) for orders. The one I'm thinking of is the one I see most in France which is "Ralentir" on the autoroutes, which I would translate as "to slow down". But you see plenty of other examples elsewhere...I just can't think of them right now. Is it just convention or is a more polite way of asking someone to so something, rather than the more direct "ralentissez"?

Je vais chercher mon manteau

prendre?

sometimes the second person (sing/plur) for orders

I think that's the imperative, it just looks like tu/vous.

I don't know why there'd be infinitive on the signs though.

https://www.thoughtco.com/commands-in-french-1368854

Yes molgrips is right, ralentissez is the imperative - ie the 'vous' form without the vous. In that respect that's much the same as English.

You do sometimes see instructions given using the infinitive. It's just one of those 'because French' things. But you can think of there being an implied "could you..." or a "be sure to" preceding it.

(voulez-vous) ralentir.

If you see what I mean?

prendre?

You might think so but although 'chercher' mean look for/seek, 'aller chercher' means go and get.

Examples: http://context.reverso.net/traduction/francais-anglais/je+vais+chercher+mon+manteau+et+mon

Prendre would probably be ok too though. Although it's more frequently used for food, or transactions. In which case it's more like "I'll take it"

Wonder if that would be understood in France, or is it too idiomatic?

In the same way? Probably not, unless they're familiar with The Fast Show. 🙂

Ok but it was a thing even before that. Getting one's coat = leaving.

Oh I see what you mean. Well yes maybe that would be understand, not sure myself. But without the 'I said something silly so I'm leaving' implications.

Thanks GavinT. Thought it might be one of those "because French" things. 🙂

Musical subjunctive practice 🙂

I feel your pain guys.

My wife and kids need to learn and it is not easy.

I do recommend Duolingo. It's by no means perfect but it can help. You need to look elsewhere for the proper hard grammar though.

Nice one DrJ. 🙂

I'm a bit shit at speaking French, but I can normally make myself understood using textbook vocabulary and only ever speaking the present tense 😀 but given a bit of time, I don't think it's that difficult a language to pick up. My major problem is that after I've proudly worked out how to say something, said it, checked out the "wow, impressive for an Englishman" look 8) (because they don't realise I'm Oirish straight off), they then respond with something that sounds like "uitfeydlkd;of'q[eiogugakndpoaiuserytysjhfdbvkjdoxfubfskgblzkfkf" 😆

https://www.lawlessfrench.com/grammar/infinitive/

Have a read here for more on using the imperative in impersonal commands

Secret confessions ... I'm not proud of it but the translation of Harry Potter into French is just awesome.

I'm impressed some of you read Proust in French. I tried to read Ulysses and gave up after 50 pages.

It explains clearly how English functions on a particular point and then goes on to explain how French is similar/differs.

It really helps get over that obstacle that most of us don't really understand the grammar of our own language.

When I learned some Italian I also used the Becherelle <<la grammaire italien>> which made more sense to me than an English book on Italian Grammar....

When I started to learn Polish I got to page 10 or so and decided "I'm too old for this" - now there's a language invented to prevent anyone foreign ever getting it! It's got to be up there with Hungarian and Finnish...

I haven't studied grammar directly for a while now - I just immerse myself in French TV, music and books.

[quote="Gilles"] I tried to read Ulysses and gave up after 50 pages.
Most of us give up on it in English after 50 pages!

I think it's just the UK/Irish "must read stream of consciousness" <<À la recherche du temps perdu>> is probably more readable in any language... but I'm not a big Joyce fan so perhaps biased.

I was going to add that as well. There is something about the way it is written that really shows off the grammar in a way that makes sense

Ce fut au coin de la rue [u]qu'il remarqua[/u] pour la première fois un détail insolite: un chat qui [u]lisait[/u] une carte routière. Pendant un instant, Mr Dursley ne comprit pas très bien ce qu'il venait [u]de voir[/u]. Il tourna alors la tête [u]pour regarder[/u] une deuxième fois. Il y avait bien un chat tigré, assis au coin de Privet Drive, mais pas la moindre trace de carte routière. Qu'est-ce qui avait bien pu lui passer par la tête ? Il avait dû se laisser abuser par un reflet du soleil sur le trottoir. Mr Dursley [u]cligna des yeux[/u] et [u]regarda [/u]fixement le chat. Celui-ci soutint son regard.
Tandis qu'il tournait le coin de la rue et s'engageait sur la route, Mr Dursley continua [u]d'observer[/u] le chat dans son rétroviseur. L'animal était en train de lire la plaque qui [u]indiquait[/u] « Privet Drive »—mais non, [u]voyons[/u], il ne [u]lisait[/u] pas, il [u]regardait[/u] la plaque. Les chats sont incapables de [u]lire[/u] des cartes ou des écriteaux

That's certainly some nice writing! I'm also a little reluctant to get drawn into J.K.Rowling's web but my interest is piqued...

Not exactly helpful if you want to [u]speak[/u] French though, Srevextc. Mitterand is dead and the passé simple in conversation died with him.

after I've proudly worked out how to say something, said it, checked out the "wow, impressive for an Englishman" look (because they don't realise I'm Oirish straight off), they then respond with something that sounds like "uitfeydlkd;of'q[eiogugakndpoaiuserytysjhfdbvkjdoxfubfskgblzkfkf"

In Finland I was working with an Estonian girl who was trying to have a conversation on the phone with a French bloke. She broke off and asked me to speak to him. Lol no, I said, but she pleaded so I tried to carry on the conversation in French for a few minutes and as I stumbled he twigged I was British and switched to pretty decent English. Apparently her heavy Estonian accent was the problem 🙂

That's certainly some nice writing! I'm also a little reluctant to get drawn into J.K.Rowling's web but my interest is piqued...

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar! (As Freud once said)

Just because it became very popular and got turned into blockbuster films (eventually) doesn't make it universally crap. It's definitely written for kids (but so was The Hobbit) but at the same time she seems to delight in expanding vocabulary and even better it's a consistent level in each book. (So once you get reading you are not constantly having to reach for a dictionary...) But if you want an excuse I'd more or less guarantee JK doesn't care if you do or don't....

It's really interesting how you say "nice writing" and not "nice translation" though because it really does [b]feel [/b]like it was written in French ...

In some ways it's perhaps even better because underlying the books are a whole load of British idiosyncrasies that somehow seem more poignant written in French as it makes them seem more external. (Perhaps even because JK lived in Paris and got a bit of an external view)

It reminds me in some way's of Voltaire's "letters regarding the English" I read the translation into French and it doesn't seem half so poignant as his original English....

Just because it became very popular and got turned into blockbuster films (eventually) doesn't make it universally crap.

They are poorly written, according to my wife, and seem really very derivative. Plots from the films at least are incredibly strained and the characterisation pretty rubbish.

The translation might fix part of that though.

I enjoyed them in english - the books far outstrip the films though. That excerpt above is lovely, might have to seek out some copies for my ejumakashun

Just because it became very popular and got turned into blockbuster films (eventually) doesn't make it universally crap

No absolutely! I do have a slight reluctance to read books aimed at younger readers but having said that I loved the 'His Dark Materials' trilogy. And Terry Pratchett's Tiffany Aching books which I didn't even notice were meant to be for younger readers so I'm probably full of crap. And when it comes to reading French all bets are off anyway, otherwise I wouldn't be recommending 'Le Petit Nicolas' and 'Astérix' 🙂

They are poorly written, according to my wife, and seem really very derivative. Plots from the films at least are incredibly strained and the characterisation pretty rubbish.

Poorly written is a bit harsh... it depends where you set the bar!
JK set out to write some books for children, not a set of books to be held up as great literature and stuck on the national curriculum as something to aspire to ...

Compared to Dan Brown it's incredibly well written.... but that for me is setting a bar 10' under the floor.... but I also read Pratchett and it's better written than Pratchett in terms of English but perhaps less imaginative.

Badly written to me means I really can't put up with the writing... (like Dan Brown) ... but whilst you might argue Ulysees is "well written" I found it a bit of a slog... then there are books written to be acclaimed .. Some authors who were critics it always seems to me that it's a books written by a book critic for book critics ? Harry Potter certainly isn't that... but I found it very enjoyable top read and the writing style isn't annoying... (and I read English and French and the 1st book in Italian as well though my Italian isn't near good enough to be critical or not of the translation)

Haha, Dan Brown is indeed the single worst writer I've ever read. Absolutely shocking! Not that I imagine he cares.

Poorly written is a bit harsh... it depends where you set the bar!
JK set out to write some books for children, not a set of books to be held up as great literature and stuck on the national curriculum as something to aspire to

Don't let her hear you suggesting that poor writing is acceptable for kids books!

She read most of the older kids/young adult bookshelf when she was working at a bookshop.. and puts HP quite far down the list.

HP in French doesn't feel French to me. I don't think it's intended to be. It's staccato and lacks flow, like an upper class Englishman speaking. Picking up books in French from junior's teen bookshelf I can have a pretty good guess when they were written and the language used is in keeping with the social context. HP is upper class twit English and sounds it in the French translation - which is a credit to the translators.

HP in French doesn't feel French to me. I don't think it's intended to be. It's staccato and lacks flow, like an upper class Englishman speaking.

HP is upper class twit English and sounds it in the French translation - which is a credit to the translators.

Erm, yes but that's part of the point ...I think it's meant to be like that and Harry and the Weasley family are the outsiders ...and the Dursleys are the aspiring upper class twits....

Prendre would probably be ok too though. Although it's more frequently used for food, or transactions. In which case it's more like "I'll take it"

So it doesn't feel French.

It's really interesting how you say "nice writing" and not "nice translation" though because it really does feel like it was written in French ...

Listen to the dialogues in "La Vie est un Long Fleuve Tranquille" for a class clash that was written in French and feels French.

Don't let her hear you suggesting that poor writing is acceptable for kids books!

She read most of the older kids/young adult bookshelf when she was working at a bookshop.. and puts HP quite far down the list.

I don't think it is poor writing for kids.... (not that I'm saying it's acceptable) but it's what you define poor writing as....

My 7yr old is very happy reading them but I might put him off reading for ever giving him some "literary acclaimed books" or books that have been written specifically to be judged on writing style.

Last weekend he had to write a poem on "His Easter Vacation" (which is good) except he had to use a whole load of spelling words which were all about telling the time... including "quarter", "midnight", "hour" etc.

He wrote something imaginative inside those constraints and got a house point but the choice of subject and "must use words" was only slightly better than a task to write a cheerful poem using "death, burial, dying, grandma" .... but the point was he used the words which were dictated...he would have written something far better IMHO had he just had to write a poem about Easter vacation....

Or when I got back to England I did a AF test just to get a certificate and had to write a "postcard home" .... I just created a completely artificial construct that used as many tenses as possible ... and phrasal verbs and specifically French concepts that don't really translate ... the examiner had a tick list provided for them but the "clever" bit was simply sticking as many tick marks into the "postcard"...

I feel many books are written the same way.... specifically what a critic or award judge can tick off...