[Closed] Public vs Private (leave the trolling at the door)

Sorry wrong forum! Please move! 🙄

Probably but as you allude to there's dozens of different stats touted around and interpretations of the same stats depending on who's trying to make a point so not sure I'd trust anyone who claims to accurately know how both sectors stack up.

I asked a question on a previous thread, trying to get to the bottom of the numbers regarding pension contributions without either side putting a spin on it
I copied a table from a gov site and ask if this was indeed the numbers that were on offer
No one seemed to know or was wiling to confirm or correct the numbers, all I got was people saying 'what about the MPs pensions' or 'you've missed a bit out' etc. so I'm still left listening to each side calling the others liars without really being any wiser.

[img] [/img]

This video from Office National Stats was posted by someone the other day- explains quite a bit.

and no trolling, arguing or the usual rubbish please

lets see how long that lasts.......

Ok, I currently work for the NHS and have done for 3 years. When I joined the NHS I joined for more stability in a job and more flexible working arrangements. Turned out my pay and pension are better too than I could get like for like in the Private Sector (in the current climate).

However when times are good ie not recession I personally beleive that you can get a better package financially in the private sector. I think private sector workers know this too.

Historically in my field of work, the NHS may have had 5 applicants for every job. Over the last 3 or so years this has gone up to 100 applicants for every job.

Retirement age I am not sure about. I understand some uniformed staff in the public sector retire earlier, but for good reason, and the rest of the staff are now being asked to work to the state retirement age. Is this correct?

I'll quickly answer this bit as just in from nights.

3 main uniformed services are Police, Fire and Ambulance. Yes I know the armed forces but they are that armed forces.

Police and Fire are an emergency service and have a Home Office Pension and pay conditions, they can currently retire earlier. I'll leave it at that as I may get the ages wrong and it'll set me off on a rant.

Ambulance services aren't classed as an Emergency Service we come under NHS pension scheme. So we are currently looking at working to we're 68 with a bigger penalty for retire earlier. As my pension stands today I can retire at 60 with very little loss I was looking at 58 with some loss but hopefully still with some fitness. Im now looking that I'll be well into my 60s possibly going on 70 before I can retire. Whilst the service we have gets busier year by year and more responsibilities are added.

Just to qualify I am NHS back office. I completey agree with Drac that most frontline NHS staff work incredibly hard for little reward. Having said that though I know some jobs are even harder than any NHS job in the Private sector and they will work to retirement age (what ever that will be) and just get a state pension and die of ill health as a result of their job.

Could a 70 year old manage as a paramedic?

Could a 70 year old manage as a paramedic?

No. Many struggle passed 55 to do the job from what I've seen. The shift patterns and physical aspect of the job means they suffer ill health, stress and exhaustion.

Private sector and they will work to retirement age (what ever that will be) and just get a state pension and die of ill health as a result of their job.

Yes I agree but I signed up to a job and pension that meant I shouldn't need to, that's being taken away.

If you look at simple gross pay private sector get paid less. However if you look at equal qualifications skills and experiences private sector get paid more.

[i]I understand some uniformed staff in the public sector retire earlier, but for good reason, [/i]

But that isn't a good reason to get a full pension when the rest of us have to work for (up to) another +15 years.

I'm happy that they 'retire' from their 'front-line' role, when not medically fit - but surely the same could be said for a construction worker?

We need to re-examine the whole area of pensions, both private and public - along with benefits/allowances (as all pensioners get additional help [whether they need it or not] from the state).

EDIT

[i] you look at simple gross pay private sector get paid less. However if you look at equal qualifications skills and experiences private sector get paid more. [/i]

Eh?

Another gem...

Its the truth BR - just 'cos it don't fit in with your predjudices

However if you look at equal qualifications skills and experiences private sector get paid more.

Did you watch the ONS vodcast TJ?

Its the truth BR - just 'cos it don't fit in with your predjudices

Keep it civil!

If you look at simple gross pay private sector get paid less. However if you look at equal qualifications skills and experiences private sector get paid more.

Ok TJ, to explore your point, you are stating that I am guessing for someone who is degree qualified, you get paid less in the public sector than you do in the private sector, is that correct?

Do you have any examples to clarify the point?

EDIT: I think the opposing view to this from what i hear when working in the UK is that if you are classed as a low-skilled worker, you get paid far more and have a much better pension in the public sector than in the private sector.

[url= http://www.badscience.net/2010/01/if-you-want-to-be-trusted-more-claim-less/ ]ben goldacre[/url] wrote about this (couple of years ago)

Of course TJ is spouting the usual leftwing balls (pardon the pun)...my missus, degree qualified Health Visitor earns £34k....all our friends with degrees earn way less in the private sector. The only friends we know who earn more work in.....the public sector! Its a myth spouted by public sector workers....i speak as an ex public sector who now works in the private sector.

LHS - nursing is one area where private sector pays less. Mainly because the vast bulk of the private sector is nursing home that are very cash limited. The result is nursing homes have great difficulties recruiting and retaining staff and often go overseas to recruit - usually from south Africa, Bulgaria and Romania.

Senior nursing staff in the private sector get paid significantly more than in the public sector IME

A nurse like myself working on the shop floor in the NHS - 20+ years experience, degree qualified, will earn around £28 000pa which for the level of skills and experience is not great and does not compare well with someone with a similar level of skills and experience in other professions in the private sector.

comparisons are hard to make really especially in a profession like nursing where there is no free market in skills.

No smogmonster - its the truth - see the ONS data above

smogmonster - Member
Of course TJ is spouting the usual leftwing balls (pardon the pun)...my missus, degree qualified Health Visitor earns £34k....all our friends with degrees earn way less in the private sector. The only friends we know who earn more work in.....the public sector! Its a myth spouted by public sector workers....i speak as an ex public sector who now works in the private sector.

And to counter that, I earn far more than my wife, who went to Durham, has an English literature degree and works as a teacher. I have no degree and only 5 GCSE's above a C as well as an ONC. #thicko

Ah statistics....whats the old saying? Lies, damn lies and statistics?

Would it also be worth considering fluctuation in pay and job security. Is one particular job market more volatile than the other?

If you asked me right now I'd say that public sector jobs are much more secure, you can move into many areas and build a career and have a stable job. But on the other hand when times are good the private sector is much quicker to pass on pay increases.

Also while on average those in the public sector with degrees are paid more, there is probably more opportunity to get very high wages in the private sectors. I have friends and family who have gone into jobs where they could be on 6 figure salaries by the time they are in their mid thirties.

Not seen any statistics on this.

So rigously collected data or anecdote? which is more accurate?

Also while on average those in the public sector with degrees are paid more

does not compare well with someone with a similar level of skills and experience in other professions in the private sector

That's not really comparing apples with apples though is it? I may as well say that I could earn more in the banking industry. But I don't want to be a banker so I stick with what I've got.

I think there are some cases where the public / private salaries and pensions package are vastly different (nursing clearly) but on the whole there is an unaffordable pensions black hole in the public sector. It's either reduce the public sector bills or pay more tax.

Good for you Paulosoxo, how many others you know earn more than your wife, with similar time off and similar pension (even after the current proposals?). Nice to see the insult also, well done.

comparisons are hard to make really especially in a profession like nursing where there is no free market in skills.

From my experience of nurses as a customer. There's nurses and there's nurses. I should hope that the staff nurses on ICCU get paid substantially more than a staff nurse in one of the wards I was in for rehab.

My wife earns less in the NHS than she would doing the same job in private sector. She does get a much better pension and maternity, etc though. Overall it approximately balances out.

You simply can't directly compare 'public' to 'private' - it's like saying who gets paid more - lawyers or doctors - as there's such a variation in the roles covered by the public sector and some will be relatively better or worse than others.

She would however say that working in the NHS there are far more useless, ineffectual, unmovtivated people (not frontline but rather office, admin, etc) just keeping their heads down and collecting the money than in the private sector.

Oh ffs - its quite incredible how many folk have been taken in by the tory lies and relentless tory propaganda

there is no

unaffordable pensions black hole in the public sector.

The additional contributions the tories want us to pay are simply a tax - it will not go into pensions it will be used to cut the deficit

it will not go into pensions it will be used to cut the deficit

and the reasons why we have a deficit are?

TJ - [b]and no trolling, arguing or the usual rubbish please[/b]

I think once you start comparing specific jobs then that will be the downfall in any sector.

I'll give you a two good examples without even comparing public to private working:

Public Sector Administrative assistant to NHS director gets paid more than a Nurse

Private Sector Plumber gets paid more than a Private Sector PHD qualified genetics researcher.

In those examples would you say that is fair? Who are you to say yes or no? There will always be examples where people believe they should be paid more than someone else.

Nice to see the insult also, well done

If you meant the #thicko hashtag, that was to refer to myself and my 5 GCSE'S. Sorry if you thought it was aimed at you. It wasn't.

If we leave the 1% extremes at the door and look at the average employee for both sectors it is apparent that average pay looks about the same.

...Like TJ sez, comparing the average wages doesn't say much necessarily.

The additional contributions the tories want us to pay are simply a tax

Are pay cuts preferable to job losses? I'm indifferent, but private and public seem to have adopted this approach.

This is probably going to come across all wrong but I'll have a go...

The common theme among a lot public sector workers when interviewed is that they they fully expect to work in the same job/careeer until retirement - "a job for life". It comes across as their divine right, in a once you're in, you're in for life manner.

Why is this? Why should someone who chooses teaching for example feel they should be able to retire earlier and get a pension earlier than A.N.Other worker? No one's forcing them to teach until they're 67. Why not change careers at earlier stage and move to less demanding job where they can use their skills as many thousands of other in the private sector do all the time.

So as an experienced nurse / teacher / fireman what other jobs should we do instead?

TandemJeremy - Member
Oh ffs - its quite incredible how many folk have been taken in by the tory lies and relentless tory propaganda

TJ do me a favour and either confirm or rebuke the figures I posted above are an accurate summary of the contribution side of the deal on offer [if it still is]
I certainly don't want to be taken in by anyone but when you can't get a simple answer .........

Here goes the STW-standard spiral into nastiness... can we pull it back from the brink?

So as an experienced nurse / teacher / fireman what other jobs should we do instead?

I'm sure skilled people prefer an ex-skilled person as a manager rather than a professional manager.

There's a numerous related support roles to chose from too.

It is a very odd idea that a career path comes to an end with your first job.

Jonba, you find that in the private sector someone with a degree and talent will be paid well as they will generate more income than they take in salary. The flipside is that someone who got a degree in useless subject and generally not as talented as a someone who didn't go to uni but gained experience with other employers will be a more attractive candidate than the graduate.
At the same time private sector employ graduates for jobs that require the skills they have but I've seen local government adverts requesting degrees for jobs that don't require them. An example of this in my field of accountancy is what equates to an accounts assistant needing a degree and CIPFA qualification for basically doing a job that in the private sector would be done by an AAT trainee who are usually school leavers on much less pay.

Now now.
Worked as a Claims handler/investigator for a large bank/insurer prior to my current job. Attended uni but no degree to show for it. Worked 9 to 5 Monday to Friday. Started on 10k doing new claims, went up to £17 k by the end after7 years. Also got a 10% bonus every year plus employers contributed a few% to my pension along with mine. Total package prob just under £20k.
Work in the Nhs now. Basic wage £18k after nearly 4 years. Work all sorts of shifts, as I'm relief its different shifts every week, hard to plan anything never mind childcare.. Get a shift allowance which adds a coupla grand plus my employer contributes about 8% I think towards my pension. Total package prob about £22k. Not that much more considering the shifts, the unsocial hours, the stressful nature of the job and the physical side of it too.
Now, I love my work now, see it more as a vocation rather than a job, not complaining about it in any way. I come home from a shift tired but usually happy.
Not happy about the prospect of having to humph folk down stairs till I'm 68, never mind paying more and getting less back to/from my pension.

I haven't read the whole thread and I've posted this before but..
i've moved from public to private and back again.
Moving from public sector to the private sector was the same job with pretty much the same skills. A bit more driving to jobs and a bit more admin for billing customers. There was an £8k hike in wages, a company car and a company phone. Lost 2 or 3 days holiday IIRC. the NHS never paid overtime, overtime was taken as time off in lieu, the private sector insisted you take the money. There was no pension scheme available.
Back to public sector and an upward career move into management - managing a small department with responsibility for staff, projects and a budget. Dropped about £1k, gave up car and phone, gained a few days holiday. Also back into the loving arms of the NHS pension scheme

Edit - having posted, one big change has been that whereas in the private sector, skills were largely generic and could be transferred, I'm now specialist in diagnostic imaging which at my current grade effectively ties me to the NHS or, should I decide to move jobs, either I drop wages substantially as I won't be able to leverage specialst skills or relocate (unless anyone knows any large scale users of x-ray equipment on people). In the private sector, moving and using specialist skills is probably less of an issue.

its wierd that the public sector is getting all upity about a 3% increase in pension contributions, but not about the capped pay rises which next year (with RPI at approx 4%) will mean the same thing..

The common theme among a lot public sector workers when interviewed is that they they fully expect to work in the same job/careeer until retirement - "a job for life".

2) Because state sector organisations aren't subject to the booms and busts of the market, now that (mostly, thankfully) the UK govt has privatised most of the state-owned enterprises.

"Not happy about the prospect of having to humph folk down stairs till I'm 68"

Thats a valid point, I guess people will just end up retiring on ill health rather than getting to full pensionable age. I know that aleready happens with quite alot of surgeons.

Jota - the numbers seem right to me and public sector pensions even after t recent reforms are a good deal.

What I object to is the constant pejorative descriptions of them as "gold plated" " Unaffordable£" "pensions black hole"

thats the tory propaganda that has been swallowed by many - its been a relentless line pushed by the tories and their tame press and is simply a lie. Unfortunatly one that people seem to want to believe

Not happy about the prospect of having to humph folk down stairs till I'm 68

I don't think that concern is restricted to the public sector, most manual workers are going to struggle as they get older

Thats a valid point, I guess people will just end up retiring on ill health rather than getting to full pensionable age. I know that aleready happens with quite alot of surgeons.

5th - public sector we have been encouraged to stay on the shop floor.

I still would like to know what private sector job you think a skilled nurse could move into cos I have been racking my brains and looking for one and cannot see it.

Just a quickie about the strikes.
My pension is the Local Government Pension scheme (LGPS,you can opt into it or not.
I opted in and pay a contribution every month. At retirement age the LGPS adds another 2/3rds to it. This is done by giving MY money to Investment Bankers who are supposed to invest it. However it turns out they’ve been to busy buying bottles of wine as expensive as my house and snorting white powder off young ladies buttocks for them to care about people’s money.
My pension is NOT paid for by everyone’s NI contributions. We are being asked to pay the equivalent of a 3% tax on our pensions. That’s fine if it’s the same for everyone, but its only the Public Sector that’s being asked to contribute.
So you can see why people are a bit cheesed off.
Sources from the BBC
I’ve worked in the Private sector, been self employed and now the Public sector. Every time I’ve opted into a pension or savings.
If you haven’t, that’s not the Public sectors fault.

I earn less than the UK’s average wage now and am on a 12 month contract.

Self employed I could earn about £700-£2000 a week but that had to include running costs and materials etc, however these could be offset against tax with a good accountant. In winter that money could go down to £0.
Like for like Ive been offered jobs in the private sector with pensions and holiday + £10Kish. Ive not taken them due to the usual childcare problems that most of us suffer from.

Thanks TJ - at last an answer 🙂

Other roles within the organisation will be appropriate.

So what other roles are you going to find for all these people that are no longer physically fit enough to do the job?

There is not enough managerial / admin roles.

thats the tory propaganda that has been swallowed by many - its been a relentless line pushed by the tories and their tame press and is simply a lie. Unfortunatly one that people seem to want to believe

Got any links to some [b]independent [/b]analysis which proves your point and "outs" the tory lie ? I will even accept the grauniad ? 🙂

I still would like to know what private sector job you think a skilled nurse could move into cos I have been racking my brains and looking for one and cannot see it

Private Sector nursing
Care home work
Private home help management
Occupational Health worker
Health and Safety officer

Some public sector jobs pay better than 'equivalent' private sector jobs
Some private sector jobs pay better than 'equivalent' public sector jobs

Some public sector jobs pay worse than 'equivalent' private sector jobs
Some private sector jobs pay worse than 'equivalent' public sector jobs

Some public sector pensions are better than private sector pensions
Some private sector pensions are better than public sector pensions

Some public sector workers are lazy sods
Some private sector workers are lazy sods

Some public sector workers work their bums off to do their best
Sone private sector workers work their bums off to do their best

Some public sector workers think private sector workers have it better off
Some private sector workers think public sector workers have it better off

Some public sector workers are in a Union
Some private sector workers are in a Union

Some public sector workers are not in a Union
Some private sector workers are not in a Union

Some public sector workers support today's strikes
Some private sector workers support today's strikes

Some public sector workers do not support today's strikes
Some private sector workers do not support today's strikes

Some public sector workers spend too much time posting on STW while they should be working
Some private sector workers spend too much time posting on STW while they should be working

We're all workers aren't we? Though perhaps it's just that a tiny minority of workers (public and private) really do have it better off than the overall majority (public and private) who are being squeezed more and more to pay for a deficit largely caused by the policy and practice of that tiny minority? And who probably are quite happy that the overall majority of workers are entrenching themselves in a public vs private mindset instead of a workers together mindset as they can get away with cutting public sector spending and jobs (those that are left, just be grateful you've got a job, now get back to work!) and get less at the end of their working lives, reducing private sector employee costs through making fewer staff work more for less (those that are left, just be grateful you've got a job, now get back to work!) and get less at the end of their working lives, maximising corporate and individual profit and tax avoidance through exploitation of loopholes that the majority of individuals and small business owners don't know as they don't have armies of accountants to work it all out, and congratulating themselves with a nice bonus and golden retirement package at the end of it.

We are being asked to pay the equivalent of a 3% tax on our pensions

thats a mis-representation. The payment is a contribution to the pension costs. Its not a tax as you don't have to pay it if you don't want the pension. I don't know of any private sector pensions that don't have a similar contribution - I have to pay 6% into mine to get 6% matched by my company and that seems broadly standard. I can pay anything extra I like, but it isn't matched.

Paulosoxo..thanks for the clarification. No offence taken.

5lab - thats the issue - it is not a contribution to the pensions at all. The teachers one is especially blatant

Don't you get tax relief on contributions?

therefore the net figures are somewhat lower?

5th - public sector we have been encouraged to stay on the shop floor.

I still would like to know what private sector job you think a skilled nurse could move into cos I have been racking my brains and looking for one and cannot see it.

For an individual it really depends on them. We've got a former NHS head chef running our [software] support team and a former hotel department manager as a senior systems analyst.

I don't know much about what you do but I'd imagine you'd slot into any management role pretty easily.

Nope - I am a crap manager but a damn good shop floor nurse.

Usually skilled people move into management.

I'm sure skilled people prefer an ex-skilled person as a manager rather than a professional manager.

1) Perhaps rightly, there are simply not enough managment jobs in public sectorland for 'old' clinicians/practicioners/registered professionals (particlularly since the great middle-managment cull, which IMO is not such a bad thing overall, but sorry of you have been 'culled').

2) I am a skilled person and regularly struggled throughout my career working under/for burnt-out skilled people who have been disillusioned by the job. I would worry about some of them having to truck on for an extra 12 years (in my case, the old 'mental health officers' are still retiring at 55, the next 'generation' of managers will be 65-67)

LHS - Member

I still would like to know what private sector job you think a skilled nurse could move into cos I have been racking my brains and looking for one and cannot see it

Private Sector nursing
Care home work
Private home help management
Occupational Health worker
Health and Safety officer

Not a nurse then LHS?

...The first three are better done by younger fitter and more mentally agile people and less burnt out nurses (sorry but I fully expect to be less agile and more 'burnt out' at 60 than I am at 34).

Occy health worker and H&S oficer jobs in private sector by and large are vastly better paid than public sector equivalents, but also very few and far between. You also need considerable extra training and skills to jump from nursing to H&S. One of my friends could, but she learnt it all via being a union rep, so having leeched away precious NHS resources on her training days and union activities. ( :p )

Anyway, can't stop and type now. Although this is actually my rostered day off and if it wasn't, nurses in my service aren't allowed to strike anyway, I have a demonstration to attend. 😀

Has it occurred to anyone that the reason the Tories want to change pension terms and conditions is to lower the liabilities, and so make it more attractive to the private sector when they privatise it all? ie: As soon as possible

Its the first thing I thought when I heard all this hoo-ha

Its all academic. There won't be a public sector at all pretty soon. And that'll include the NHS 🙁

Sad seeing people at each others throats on the issue. One sub-section of the workforce might be a little better off, so what do the others want? They want that sub-section brought down to their level rather than have their own lot improved.

However if for example you are in favour of policies like a tobin tax, think that tax loopholes for wealthy individuals and companies should be closed and think that the banking sector should be there to provide services to the real economy not act as a casino where traders gamble other peoples money - then the same people that want public sector workers conditions brought down a level will be all supportive of maintaining the status quo and not reducing the conditions for a very small sub section of the population.

The public sector didnt bankrupt the economy and neither did most of the private sector.

Well, we've already had arguments in the (private sector) office about whether the strike is right or not...

... and that has inevitably led to discussions comparing private and public.

In our industry I would say that salaries of comparable posts are reasonably similar. Leave, flexi and pensions are all better in the public sector though.

HOWEVER, as usual that would be a gross simplification, as it is very difficult to get a meaningful grade comparison. I have recruited staff from the public sector and they are all adamant that the main drawback to their former public sector posts has been lack of recognition / opportunity to progress.

Therefore, many good people get stuck in lower grades and have little opportunity to progress based on their talent

I imagine these people support today's action, and they're not public sector

Usdaw members employed by Unilever at their sites in Leeds and Port Sunlight have voted 5 to 1 in favour of strike action in protest at the company's proposal to scrap their final salary pension scheme.
Usdaw members voted 304 (83.3%) to 61 (16.7%) in favour of strike action and an initial 24 hour stoppage at Leeds and Port Sunlight is now likely to take place before Christmas.

Unilever closed their final salary pension scheme to new members in 2008 but promised the 5,000 existing members that this would make the scheme safe for the future. Despite this promise, Unilever announced in May this year that they intended to close the scheme to new accrual altogether.

The proposals mean members of the final salary pension scheme stand to lose up to 40% of their retirement income.

Talks on the proposals have been taking place since June without success.

Unilever profits rose to €6.13bn (£5.22bn) pre-tax last year, up from €4.92bn the year before, on turnover up 11pc to €44.3bn. I bet the top bosses pensions don't get changed for the worse though, eh? The majority of workers in both sectors are getting battered unfairly, we should all be standing together to ensure that everyone is contributing fairly (and that must include the ones at the top and the organisations/departments they run) to help battle the economic situation.

Paramedic here, from my point of view the hourly rate is often better in the private sector but there is no pension provision, the NHS pays me less than i could earn but offers some stability and a pension at the end....swings and roundabouts, one of my colleagues who works mainly in the private sector has just bought a second house as his form of pension for when he retires.
Its a crappy move to change existing pension deals, better to have changed the deal for new joiners instead and honour current deals that people may have put 10, 20, 30 years into.

Regards age and ability, in my 12 years with the Ambulance Service i have come across 4 members of staff who have made it to 65....working through the night, clambering around in upturned cars, carrying people down stairs etc is not an old man's game....the number 68 being floated by the government is laughable....anybody want a 70 year old Paramedic coming out to them in their hour of need?...this is what has caused the most ill feeling in my area, there is now a belligerent attitude among the older workers that they will continue working as requested by the government and if that means chronic injuries take months to heal then they'll have no guilt about going off sick on full pay for 6 months before returning....or putting in claims against the NHS for injuries sustained at work, this is a massively growing sector by the way. The government could end up shooting themselves in the foot with this rule.

Happy days, Australia beckons i think!

Ambulance services aren't classed as an Emergency Service we come under NHS pension scheme

That is a total disgrace.

Usually skilled people move into management.

.. and that is more or less everything that is wrong with how companies work. Even as the 'best' in your field you end up using PowerPoint and Excel all day to generate statistics to justify something or other.
This is called 'career progression' apparently.

Maybe it's just here :-/

"Private home help management
Occupational Health worker
Health and Safety officer"

Management is totally different from being a nurse. Health & Safety is completely different from being a nurse. I have no idea what an occupational health worker is.

I KNOW that in my line of work. Private sector pays at least 6% more than public.

More work, bit less stress and same pension. Also got a pay rise which the public sector worker didn't.

Private wins over public.

Nope - I am a crap manager but a damn good shop floor nurse.

What characteristics make you good at your job? That's what allows you to change careers.

As I said, I'm not sure the 'worn out before 65' argument is particularly specific to the public sector
All manual workers will suffer - to some degree

Over the road from me now there's a couple of roofers working, I can't see them doing that at 65
My brother is a tiler and at 55 his knees are now finished

I just can't see how the public sector are a special case in this respect

Why should people be treated differently solely on the basis of whether they work in the private or oublic sector?

How have the differences in culture (perceived or otherwise) between the sectors arisen?

If there is (again perceived or otherwise) a trade off between lower pay and jobs for life (which I am not sure about), well, ok lets live with the consequences then?

On another thread a lawyer in the city was abused for working long hours. If he wants to make that choice, why shouldn't he and why shouldn't he enjoy the benefits of his labour?

"Odd that you describe yourself as a 'job'."

What?

What?

Management is totally different from being a nurse. Health & Safety is completely different from being a nurse. I have no idea what an occupational health worker is.

[i]Hands in the pockets, hmph, don't want to change so you can't make me.[/i]

People move jobs, re-train, gain additional training to keep employed. Its a matter of looking at your skills and applying yourself. You're not entitled to a job you know?

Over the past couple of decades or so the private sector has seen it's pensions massively eroded.

This started with a lot of businesses taking pensions "holidays" in the 1980's.

Also the introduction of personal pensions by (guess who?) in 1988, which meant that lots of [b]private sector[/b] companies could get away with closing their pension schemes.

**BTW, this was nothing to do with those companies "being squeezed" - it was entirely to do with them saving money and adding it to their bottom line (and in the process being "more profitable", "more efficient" and "more productive" etc etc, and all of the other things that seem to be so widely admired (particulalrly amongst the very [b]private sector[/b] workers that still work for them!)**

It got worse with scams / rip offs like the Mirror under (Sir Bob) Maxwell and more recently Equitable Life

I just find it amazing that the people who have acquiesced in letting their own pensions get chopped now seem only to be bothered about levelling down the rest.

Before you go on any more about how marvelously productive the private sector is, have a think about how some of that was achieved by doing away with your pensions!!!!

You can't have it both ways. If the private sector is so bloody brilliant then it should be able to afford to give decent pay and conditions.

There really isn't any good reason to live in the $hit you know.