[Closed] Public vs Private (leave the trolling at the door)

The common theme among a lot public sector workers when interviewed is that they they fully expect to work in the same job/careeer until retirement - "a job for life".

2) Because state sector organisations aren't subject to the booms and busts of the market, now that (mostly, thankfully) the UK govt has privatised most of the state-owned enterprises.

"Not happy about the prospect of having to humph folk down stairs till I'm 68"

Thats a valid point, I guess people will just end up retiring on ill health rather than getting to full pensionable age. I know that aleready happens with quite alot of surgeons.

Jota - the numbers seem right to me and public sector pensions even after t recent reforms are a good deal.

What I object to is the constant pejorative descriptions of them as "gold plated" " Unaffordable£" "pensions black hole"

thats the tory propaganda that has been swallowed by many - its been a relentless line pushed by the tories and their tame press and is simply a lie. Unfortunatly one that people seem to want to believe

Not happy about the prospect of having to humph folk down stairs till I'm 68

I don't think that concern is restricted to the public sector, most manual workers are going to struggle as they get older

Thats a valid point, I guess people will just end up retiring on ill health rather than getting to full pensionable age. I know that aleready happens with quite alot of surgeons.

5th - public sector we have been encouraged to stay on the shop floor.

I still would like to know what private sector job you think a skilled nurse could move into cos I have been racking my brains and looking for one and cannot see it.

Just a quickie about the strikes.
My pension is the Local Government Pension scheme (LGPS,you can opt into it or not.
I opted in and pay a contribution every month. At retirement age the LGPS adds another 2/3rds to it. This is done by giving MY money to Investment Bankers who are supposed to invest it. However it turns out they’ve been to busy buying bottles of wine as expensive as my house and snorting white powder off young ladies buttocks for them to care about people’s money.
My pension is NOT paid for by everyone’s NI contributions. We are being asked to pay the equivalent of a 3% tax on our pensions. That’s fine if it’s the same for everyone, but its only the Public Sector that’s being asked to contribute.
So you can see why people are a bit cheesed off.
Sources from the BBC
I’ve worked in the Private sector, been self employed and now the Public sector. Every time I’ve opted into a pension or savings.
If you haven’t, that’s not the Public sectors fault.

I earn less than the UK’s average wage now and am on a 12 month contract.

Self employed I could earn about £700-£2000 a week but that had to include running costs and materials etc, however these could be offset against tax with a good accountant. In winter that money could go down to £0.
Like for like Ive been offered jobs in the private sector with pensions and holiday + £10Kish. Ive not taken them due to the usual childcare problems that most of us suffer from.

Thanks TJ - at last an answer 🙂

Other roles within the organisation will be appropriate.

So what other roles are you going to find for all these people that are no longer physically fit enough to do the job?

There is not enough managerial / admin roles.

thats the tory propaganda that has been swallowed by many - its been a relentless line pushed by the tories and their tame press and is simply a lie. Unfortunatly one that people seem to want to believe

Got any links to some [b]independent [/b]analysis which proves your point and "outs" the tory lie ? I will even accept the grauniad ? 🙂

I still would like to know what private sector job you think a skilled nurse could move into cos I have been racking my brains and looking for one and cannot see it

Private Sector nursing
Care home work
Private home help management
Occupational Health worker
Health and Safety officer

Some public sector jobs pay better than 'equivalent' private sector jobs
Some private sector jobs pay better than 'equivalent' public sector jobs

Some public sector jobs pay worse than 'equivalent' private sector jobs
Some private sector jobs pay worse than 'equivalent' public sector jobs

Some public sector pensions are better than private sector pensions
Some private sector pensions are better than public sector pensions

Some public sector workers are lazy sods
Some private sector workers are lazy sods

Some public sector workers work their bums off to do their best
Sone private sector workers work their bums off to do their best

Some public sector workers think private sector workers have it better off
Some private sector workers think public sector workers have it better off

Some public sector workers are in a Union
Some private sector workers are in a Union

Some public sector workers are not in a Union
Some private sector workers are not in a Union

Some public sector workers support today's strikes
Some private sector workers support today's strikes

Some public sector workers do not support today's strikes
Some private sector workers do not support today's strikes

Some public sector workers spend too much time posting on STW while they should be working
Some private sector workers spend too much time posting on STW while they should be working

We're all workers aren't we? Though perhaps it's just that a tiny minority of workers (public and private) really do have it better off than the overall majority (public and private) who are being squeezed more and more to pay for a deficit largely caused by the policy and practice of that tiny minority? And who probably are quite happy that the overall majority of workers are entrenching themselves in a public vs private mindset instead of a workers together mindset as they can get away with cutting public sector spending and jobs (those that are left, just be grateful you've got a job, now get back to work!) and get less at the end of their working lives, reducing private sector employee costs through making fewer staff work more for less (those that are left, just be grateful you've got a job, now get back to work!) and get less at the end of their working lives, maximising corporate and individual profit and tax avoidance through exploitation of loopholes that the majority of individuals and small business owners don't know as they don't have armies of accountants to work it all out, and congratulating themselves with a nice bonus and golden retirement package at the end of it.

We are being asked to pay the equivalent of a 3% tax on our pensions

thats a mis-representation. The payment is a contribution to the pension costs. Its not a tax as you don't have to pay it if you don't want the pension. I don't know of any private sector pensions that don't have a similar contribution - I have to pay 6% into mine to get 6% matched by my company and that seems broadly standard. I can pay anything extra I like, but it isn't matched.

Paulosoxo..thanks for the clarification. No offence taken.

5lab - thats the issue - it is not a contribution to the pensions at all. The teachers one is especially blatant

Don't you get tax relief on contributions?

therefore the net figures are somewhat lower?

5th - public sector we have been encouraged to stay on the shop floor.

I still would like to know what private sector job you think a skilled nurse could move into cos I have been racking my brains and looking for one and cannot see it.

For an individual it really depends on them. We've got a former NHS head chef running our [software] support team and a former hotel department manager as a senior systems analyst.

I don't know much about what you do but I'd imagine you'd slot into any management role pretty easily.

Nope - I am a crap manager but a damn good shop floor nurse.

Usually skilled people move into management.

I'm sure skilled people prefer an ex-skilled person as a manager rather than a professional manager.

1) Perhaps rightly, there are simply not enough managment jobs in public sectorland for 'old' clinicians/practicioners/registered professionals (particlularly since the great middle-managment cull, which IMO is not such a bad thing overall, but sorry of you have been 'culled').

2) I am a skilled person and regularly struggled throughout my career working under/for burnt-out skilled people who have been disillusioned by the job. I would worry about some of them having to truck on for an extra 12 years (in my case, the old 'mental health officers' are still retiring at 55, the next 'generation' of managers will be 65-67)

LHS - Member

I still would like to know what private sector job you think a skilled nurse could move into cos I have been racking my brains and looking for one and cannot see it

Private Sector nursing
Care home work
Private home help management
Occupational Health worker
Health and Safety officer

Not a nurse then LHS?

...The first three are better done by younger fitter and more mentally agile people and less burnt out nurses (sorry but I fully expect to be less agile and more 'burnt out' at 60 than I am at 34).

Occy health worker and H&S oficer jobs in private sector by and large are vastly better paid than public sector equivalents, but also very few and far between. You also need considerable extra training and skills to jump from nursing to H&S. One of my friends could, but she learnt it all via being a union rep, so having leeched away precious NHS resources on her training days and union activities. ( :p )

Anyway, can't stop and type now. Although this is actually my rostered day off and if it wasn't, nurses in my service aren't allowed to strike anyway, I have a demonstration to attend. 😀

Has it occurred to anyone that the reason the Tories want to change pension terms and conditions is to lower the liabilities, and so make it more attractive to the private sector when they privatise it all? ie: As soon as possible

Its the first thing I thought when I heard all this hoo-ha

Its all academic. There won't be a public sector at all pretty soon. And that'll include the NHS 🙁

Sad seeing people at each others throats on the issue. One sub-section of the workforce might be a little better off, so what do the others want? They want that sub-section brought down to their level rather than have their own lot improved.

However if for example you are in favour of policies like a tobin tax, think that tax loopholes for wealthy individuals and companies should be closed and think that the banking sector should be there to provide services to the real economy not act as a casino where traders gamble other peoples money - then the same people that want public sector workers conditions brought down a level will be all supportive of maintaining the status quo and not reducing the conditions for a very small sub section of the population.

The public sector didnt bankrupt the economy and neither did most of the private sector.

Well, we've already had arguments in the (private sector) office about whether the strike is right or not...

... and that has inevitably led to discussions comparing private and public.

In our industry I would say that salaries of comparable posts are reasonably similar. Leave, flexi and pensions are all better in the public sector though.

HOWEVER, as usual that would be a gross simplification, as it is very difficult to get a meaningful grade comparison. I have recruited staff from the public sector and they are all adamant that the main drawback to their former public sector posts has been lack of recognition / opportunity to progress.

Therefore, many good people get stuck in lower grades and have little opportunity to progress based on their talent

I imagine these people support today's action, and they're not public sector

Usdaw members employed by Unilever at their sites in Leeds and Port Sunlight have voted 5 to 1 in favour of strike action in protest at the company's proposal to scrap their final salary pension scheme.
Usdaw members voted 304 (83.3%) to 61 (16.7%) in favour of strike action and an initial 24 hour stoppage at Leeds and Port Sunlight is now likely to take place before Christmas.

Unilever closed their final salary pension scheme to new members in 2008 but promised the 5,000 existing members that this would make the scheme safe for the future. Despite this promise, Unilever announced in May this year that they intended to close the scheme to new accrual altogether.

The proposals mean members of the final salary pension scheme stand to lose up to 40% of their retirement income.

Talks on the proposals have been taking place since June without success.

Unilever profits rose to €6.13bn (£5.22bn) pre-tax last year, up from €4.92bn the year before, on turnover up 11pc to €44.3bn. I bet the top bosses pensions don't get changed for the worse though, eh? The majority of workers in both sectors are getting battered unfairly, we should all be standing together to ensure that everyone is contributing fairly (and that must include the ones at the top and the organisations/departments they run) to help battle the economic situation.

Paramedic here, from my point of view the hourly rate is often better in the private sector but there is no pension provision, the NHS pays me less than i could earn but offers some stability and a pension at the end....swings and roundabouts, one of my colleagues who works mainly in the private sector has just bought a second house as his form of pension for when he retires.
Its a crappy move to change existing pension deals, better to have changed the deal for new joiners instead and honour current deals that people may have put 10, 20, 30 years into.

Regards age and ability, in my 12 years with the Ambulance Service i have come across 4 members of staff who have made it to 65....working through the night, clambering around in upturned cars, carrying people down stairs etc is not an old man's game....the number 68 being floated by the government is laughable....anybody want a 70 year old Paramedic coming out to them in their hour of need?...this is what has caused the most ill feeling in my area, there is now a belligerent attitude among the older workers that they will continue working as requested by the government and if that means chronic injuries take months to heal then they'll have no guilt about going off sick on full pay for 6 months before returning....or putting in claims against the NHS for injuries sustained at work, this is a massively growing sector by the way. The government could end up shooting themselves in the foot with this rule.

Happy days, Australia beckons i think!

Ambulance services aren't classed as an Emergency Service we come under NHS pension scheme

That is a total disgrace.

Usually skilled people move into management.

.. and that is more or less everything that is wrong with how companies work. Even as the 'best' in your field you end up using PowerPoint and Excel all day to generate statistics to justify something or other.
This is called 'career progression' apparently.

Maybe it's just here :-/

"Private home help management
Occupational Health worker
Health and Safety officer"

Management is totally different from being a nurse. Health & Safety is completely different from being a nurse. I have no idea what an occupational health worker is.

I KNOW that in my line of work. Private sector pays at least 6% more than public.

More work, bit less stress and same pension. Also got a pay rise which the public sector worker didn't.

Private wins over public.

Nope - I am a crap manager but a damn good shop floor nurse.

What characteristics make you good at your job? That's what allows you to change careers.

As I said, I'm not sure the 'worn out before 65' argument is particularly specific to the public sector
All manual workers will suffer - to some degree

Over the road from me now there's a couple of roofers working, I can't see them doing that at 65
My brother is a tiler and at 55 his knees are now finished

I just can't see how the public sector are a special case in this respect

Why should people be treated differently solely on the basis of whether they work in the private or oublic sector?

How have the differences in culture (perceived or otherwise) between the sectors arisen?

If there is (again perceived or otherwise) a trade off between lower pay and jobs for life (which I am not sure about), well, ok lets live with the consequences then?

On another thread a lawyer in the city was abused for working long hours. If he wants to make that choice, why shouldn't he and why shouldn't he enjoy the benefits of his labour?

"Odd that you describe yourself as a 'job'."

What?

What?

Management is totally different from being a nurse. Health & Safety is completely different from being a nurse. I have no idea what an occupational health worker is.

[i]Hands in the pockets, hmph, don't want to change so you can't make me.[/i]

People move jobs, re-train, gain additional training to keep employed. Its a matter of looking at your skills and applying yourself. You're not entitled to a job you know?

Over the past couple of decades or so the private sector has seen it's pensions massively eroded.

This started with a lot of businesses taking pensions "holidays" in the 1980's.

Also the introduction of personal pensions by (guess who?) in 1988, which meant that lots of [b]private sector[/b] companies could get away with closing their pension schemes.

**BTW, this was nothing to do with those companies "being squeezed" - it was entirely to do with them saving money and adding it to their bottom line (and in the process being "more profitable", "more efficient" and "more productive" etc etc, and all of the other things that seem to be so widely admired (particulalrly amongst the very [b]private sector[/b] workers that still work for them!)**

It got worse with scams / rip offs like the Mirror under (Sir Bob) Maxwell and more recently Equitable Life

I just find it amazing that the people who have acquiesced in letting their own pensions get chopped now seem only to be bothered about levelling down the rest.

Before you go on any more about how marvelously productive the private sector is, have a think about how some of that was achieved by doing away with your pensions!!!!

You can't have it both ways. If the private sector is so bloody brilliant then it should be able to afford to give decent pay and conditions.

There really isn't any good reason to live in the $hit you know.

5lab - thats the issue - it is not a contribution to the pensions at all. The teachers one is especially blatant

I was under the impression that public pensions come from 'the big pot'. If after this change the pensions are still taking more out of 'the big pot' than those drawing the pensions are putting in, surely its still a subsidised pension, just the drawees are paying more towards their share?

I acknowledge the 'pot' is shared with other things, but if it was entirely seperated off and the government simply matched the public service employee's input into the pot, it'd probably run dry pretty quickly

A nurse is what I am. Its far more than just a job. Even when not at work I reamin a nurse legally bound by my professional ethics and judged by the standards of being a nurse not a lay person

What characteristics make me good at my job?

Empathy, strong stomach, counselling skills, understanding of dementia, knowledge of anatomy and physiology, skills in performing complex mechanical tasks, abilty to set priorities, multitasking.

Few of my real skills are transferable elsewhere. Where do other jobs needs someone who can recognise when someone is distressed about their partner having dementia and find the right way to help them gain some understanding and acceptance of this?

Where does the ability to calm and soothe an agiatated person with dementia fit in outside of nursing?

you can aliken that to a brickie though. A brickie will be good at surveying a site, good at mixing mortar, good at climbing ladders/scaffolding, good at laying bricks. The vast majority of those skills are useless outside of bricklaying as well, but I don't see many 60+year old brickies

Where does the ability to calm and soothe an agiatated person with dementia fit in outside of nursing?

You could ask an Engineer where material property data for a composite shaft could be required outside of composite engineering?

Or a lawyer where expert working knowledge of divorce law is required outside of that practice.

Or you could not focus on the details, and look at transferable skills, rather than non-transferable!

[i]Hands in the pockets, hmph, don't want to change so you can't make me.[/i]

People move jobs, re-train, gain additional training to keep employed. Its a matter of looking at your skills and applying yourself. You're not entitled to a job you know?

That it Konabuynny./

hing is the people suggesting that I should leave nursing simply show they have no understanding of my skills set and what the job requires.

That it Konabuynny./

hing is the people suggesting that I should leave nursing simply show they have no understanding of my skills set and what the job requires.

Different take on things, looking at TJ'S figures a qualified Nurse in the Forces earns significantly more than their counterparts in the NHS. When not on operations many work effectively for the NHS, but can be argued are doing 2 jobs and at present have less job security.

What characteristics make me good at my job?

Empathy, strong stomach, counselling skills, understanding of dementia, knowledge of anatomy and physiology, skills in performing complex mechanical tasks, abilty to set priorities, multitasking.

Few of my real skills are transferable elsewhere.

Where do other jobs needs someone who can recognise when someone is distressed about their partner having dementia and find the right way to help them gain some understanding and acceptance of this?

Where does the ability to calm and soothe an agiatated person with dementia fit in outside of nursing?

If you want to be a nurse that's great. If you want to apply your skills to something else then you certainly have them.

LHS,

You have a particularly short sighted attitude.

Our health service and education systems benefit hugely from having time served, experienced staff who understand the system and can keep it running under the onslaught of new initiatives from central Govt.

These people are hard to replace because the system is complicated and relies on lots of personal interactions - knowledge and experience are often as important as "skills"

It's much easier to replace one brickie with another as they don't need so much to "fit in" with a large team.