[Closed] Public Sector Workers earn more than those in the private sector

I don't feel richer, not with a 2 year pay freeze in place. Don't think this average is comparing 'like for like' jobs, in terms of reponsibility, qualifications, workload etc...

<awaits the bitter rants from the usual suspects>

EDIT: Oh it does do a like for like comparison, supposedly. So what are they comparing my job as a secondary school teacher to? Being in charge of the fruit and veg department at Tesco?

Can someone put the kettle on? I'll just pop out for some biscuits and a lemon. Can't go drinking Earl Grey without lemon, you know.

This regular get trotted out in papers but it's not usually that simple.

A little blog entry here from Ben Goldacre not on this particular press release but a very similar one last year.

http://www.badscience.net/2010/01/if-you-want-to-be-trusted-more-claim-less/

Captain be a dear and get me some jaffa cakes x

It's been common knowledge for a few years hasn't it?

Proper Yorkshire tea for me, ta.

Gets some rich tea (can't afford hobnobs anymore)

Another thoroughly researched and detailed 'survey' for you:

Apples are more like pears than oranges

Anyway

[img] [/img]

*grabs the STW Conch Shell of Indigence to summon the usual suspects to the forum*

The centre-right Policy Exchange said...

Would that be the same Policy Exchange who also suggested:

There is no realistic prospect that our [Northern] regeneration towns can converge with London and the South East. There is, however, a very real prospect of encouraging significant numbers of people to move from those towns to London and the South East…Britain will be unambiguously richer if we allow more people to live in London and its hinterland

It said the gap between equivalent workers in both sectors was more than 30% when based on hourly pay.

What a load of bollocks (and no I don't work in the public sector).

Junkyard - I think you've pasted a bit into the wrong thread 😉

My peer in 'green' issues at Bolton council earned £12k more than me I saw her job advertised, BUT, she now has no job and mine is funded for another 3 years by BIG so its actually safer in the 3rd sector these days I don't envy the uncertainty.

My friend who's a town planner had everyone in her office choose to go down 4 days so she didn't lose her job and they could stay as team, not sure I'd have got that from my colleagues when I worked in the private sector.....BUT there are a lot of ring fenced jobs there who still get full salary till retirement age even if they get rid of them do they still do that??? surely not???

From Policy Exchange's About Us page:

We are particularly interested in free market and localist solutions to public policy questions.

Bet they love Dave's plans for the NHS too.

I'm sure the survey is indeed a load of bollocks, as most of them seem to be, but it's not all peachy in the private sector. As far as I can tell, most of us in this large blue-chip have had bugger all by way of a pay rise for 5+ years, though we have received a steady erosion of benefits, which was nice.

"Hello, Policy Exchange. Oh hello Dave"

"ok, ok, yes, I think we can do that. You want us to conduct a survey to reach the following conclusions. Obviously we won't be too fussy about how we arrive at them as they won't be analysed anyway. Its just to give more fuel to the mentallists at the Mail and the Telegraph"

"Yep, no problem. We'll have that sorted by the end of the week. Invoice to Lord Acshcroft at the usual Belize address?"

I work for a charity, and we haven't had a pay rise (even an inflationary one) in 2 and a bit years - we have just had to reapply for our jobs with worse contracts - but I know loads of people in similar positions in the public sector who have been laid off, and the rest have had pay freezes, reduced hours etc.

Direct front line staff, like nurses, police, teachers, social workers etc, are all worth their salaries IMO. Its meddling faceless back-room staff at Councils that I have no sympathy for. Sorry. All council salaries should be made public, so we can see exactly where our money goes. For every £30k salary thats 20 lots of council tax, just to pay that salary.

But, I cant help but think the BBC have these self-critical stories in a slow-news story bank for promoting discussion occasionally.

I'm going to get laughed at for saying this, but many people in the public sector work much harder than their peers (on a similar wage) in the private sector.

Mrs Daz is a social worker and she comes home exhausted, and doesn't every have time for a lunch break, whereas I work for a consultancy programming computers and rarely go home thinking 'that was a hard day'. I know what you're thinking, that I'm a lazy git but I assure you that's not the case (spouting rubbish on here notwhithstanding!). Same goes for teachers, how many people in the private sector work 12-13 hour days?

Must be another attack on Public Sector T&Cs on the way, or another wave of redundancies.

Amazingly enough, that's when this sort of "survey" or "report" usually floats to the surface.

Usual Tory 'Divide and Conquer' guff. The fact is we're ALL getting shafted by this lot, and they've barely started yet. The last thing they would want is any solidarity between the private and public sector employees

Expect a lot more of this drivel. Probably saying the exact opposite when they've finished with the public sector and they move their attention back to riding rough-shod over workers rights in the private sector. Namely, after they've privatised everything.

You don't have to be very bright to see the (not-very) hidden machinations at work here

How can you have solidarity? The public sector is paid out of the private sector's tax bill.

If the public sector earns more than the private sector there isn't enough money in the system.

Pretty basic stuff.

That artcile seems very much like manipulating some vaguely related statistics to try to make a point to justify further incoming cuts to jobs in the public sector.

there isn't enough money in the system.

Pretty basic stuff.

FTFY.

Now, tea?

one sweetener for me please dear...

How can you have solidarity? The public sector is paid out of the private sector's tax bill.

If the public sector earns more than the private sector there isn't enough money in the system.

Pretty basic stuff.

Dont public sector workers pay tax then?

What a thoroughly in depth report. 🙄

PSW, who attend their place of work are onto a good little earner, with early retirement, nice comfy offices and all and everything supplied to them and funded by the tax payer.

Then we have the tradesman, who provides his own tools, his own training, his own health and safety clothing, and possibly even his ownb transport and pension.

Nearly all council services can and should be privatised, at market rate wages.

Dont public sector workers pay tax then?

If the public sector earns more than the private sector there isn't enough money in the system.

If your arithmetic skills are this weak then this may be one debate to stay away from.

No, they don't contribute to tax. How can they? They're paid from tax revenue.

Tell that to my wife 😀

5th elefant I take it you never use any public sector services, like say schools hospitals roads etc?

Who pays these "think tanks"?

5th elefant I take it you never use any public sector services, like say schools hospitals roads etc?

No, they don't contribute to tax. How can they? They're paid from tax revenue.

Tell that to my wife

In fairness if your wages are paid for out of tax then paying tax is a bit meaningless as you are just returning money back to the people who paid it to you in the first place. I've sometimes wondered if it might not be simpler (and cheaper) for those in the public sector to be paid less but just not bother with the whole paying tax for precisely this reason. There are no doubt good reasons that I've not thought of as to why this isn't a good idea.

I agree with you on this bit though Dazh

If your arithmetic skills are this weak then this may be one debate to stay away from.

I'm not sure what that's got to do with anything?

er....so?

I've sometimes wondered if it might not be simpler (and cheaper) for those in the public sector to be paid less but just not bother with the whole paying tax for precisely this reason.

Don't public sector bodies have to pay fuel duty too (public cars/ambulances etc)? Barking mad.

If you object to "your" tax paying public sector wages you should also object to funding public services, no?

I'm a Paramedic. My sister in law works in a call centre. We get paid the same. Public sector managers may be grossly overpaid, but you can't beat the workers with that stick.

pedalhead - Member

I'm sure the survey is indeed a load of bollocks, as most of them seem to be, but it's not all peachy in the private sector. As far as I can tell, most of us in this large blue-chip have had bugger all by way of a pay rise for 5+ years, though we have received a steady erosion of benefits, which was nice.

Sound like we work in the same place

Drac - Moderator
What a thoroughly in depth report.

+ 1

If anyone takes the time to read the report you'll find it:

- incredibly one sided in its analysis
- lacks a methodology so you can check how they have worked stuff out
- includes nothing about any definitions
- their proposals don't match their findings
- hides the huge drawbacks of their study way beyond any journo will read
- is blatantly ideologically driven
- is one of the most repulsive things you'll ever read

I'm in the middle of marking undergraduate dissertations and if someone gave me that to mark it would get something around 45% for the research. I hope even the Tories aren't stupid enough to accept it as valid and robust research to inform policy.

the same madness is why much of the mid 2000's NHS budget increases went on employer's NI increases that happened at the same time.

It's probably bollocks, but if it does turn out to be true, I say "good". Is there any particular reason why public sector workers should join a race to the bottom?

+1 to Binners.

The fact is we're ALL getting shafted by this lot, and they've barely started yet. The last thing they would want is any solidarity between the private and public sector employees

Invoice to Lord Acshcroft at the usual Belize address?

was going to wade in with my two pence, but Binners has spent it for me!

I'm a Paramedic. My sister in law works in a call centre.

It's amazing/disgusting isn't it. An (ex)partner of a mate of mine is a paramedic and we were not long ago discussing the ridiculousness of the situation, where 'the market' deems that someone who literally has people's lives in their hands is worth the same as same an administrative worker or a junior computer programmer.

Same goes for most other professional public sector workers whose role and responsibilities go way beyond those who are paid similar wages in the private sector.

And to think people complain about their wages!

Crikey. i'm a paramedic too, but I'm actually quite satisfied (to the point of suprise) about my salary. Will be looking into call centre work, better hours, less drunks... 😆

Well as a Paramedic Team Leader my wage is a good wage but it's boosted by shift work bonus but I can't help wondering what would I get with the job responsibilities plus 12 staff and a department to look after in the private sector.

One thing I do know for where I live and work I'd be very hard pushed to get a job in the same town that pays the same though but that's because there's very little industries left here.

dazh - Member
It's amazing/disgusting isn't it. An (ex)partner of a mate of mine is a paramedic and we were not long ago discussing the ridiculousness of the situation, where 'the market' deems that someone who literally has people's lives in their hands is worth the same as same an administrative worker or a junior computer programmer.

I think you'll find that junior programmers & admin workers start on considerably less than £21k outside of London.

my oldest daughter's fella is a 21 year old plumber and is salary is broadly the same as mine - I'm a community mental health nurse with 16 year experience and a masters degree - daily I make decisions that has a huge impact on peoples life

frequently work over without payment - in real terms no pay raise for the last 2-3 years - indeed due to inflation its actually a pay cut - never have chance for lunch (sandwich garbed between visits)

breakneckspeed - you're precisely the type of idle public sector scum that needs a healthy dose of the real world to get you out of your cosy bubble. Makes me sick.

😉

Its a hugely problematic comparison to make particularly at the moment when the ground is shifting in the public sector. Cuts can mean a lot of low-value jobs being tendered out the the private sector - so if all the low paid cleaners, bin collectors, street sweepers stop being public sector employees and become private sector employees (all be it ultimately paid for by the tax payer) public sector salaries [i]seem[/i] to go up - be removing the lowest paid jobs - and private sector salaries [i]seem[/i] to go down.

At the same time you are only comparing 'jobs' and not all the workers in the private sector, not everyone working in the private sector has a 'job'. I work in the same field now as I did when I worked in the public sector - but I don't have a job I have a business and now my income comes from profit, not wages - theres no equivalent in the public sector for profit, dividends, shares, bonuses or capital that someone in the private sector might accrue instead of (or importantly [i]as well as[/i]) wages.

But essentially why moan whether the bias runs one way or the other. If you think the grass is greener on the other side - what stopping you from jumping over the fence?

If the Public Sector is that good why wasn't there more interest when it was recruiting!!! In my (30 years) experience this hasn't been the case!

Tories are out to cut back public sector, and invest in the private sector. Quality will fall dramatically, services will be reduced, and it will still cost the tax payer the same except it will be out of a different budget and therefore hidden.

It's political!

[i]Nearly all council services can and should be privatised, at market rate wages.[/i]

This is what Suffolk council was planning to do. Outsource everything. I'm sure everyone remembers the huge announcements about how it would be cheaper and more efficient and a shining example of the 'big society'.
[url] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11398678 [/url]

That was last year. This year they are now trying to quietly scrap the plans and the £220,000 Chief executive of this plan is now on 'gardening leave'.
The problems seem to be multiple, but can largely be defined as the council has a fixed income. Privatising everything means making lots of people redundant, which means instant cuts in service partially because a replacement private service takes time to commission, and also because you can't afford the service anyway because your income is being spent on redundancy.
Secondly, the council then discovered that you need a completely different skill-set if you want to contract things. You need lots of expensive lawyers to write and check contracts, and you need lots of contract compliance staff to check the contracts are being complied with. All of which costs lots of money, which didn't appear to be able to be clawed back from redundancies.

Lots of private sector workers pay taxes. Some of those taxes end up in my bank account. I spend them on stuff provided by the private sector.

In return, a bunch of kids end up knowing a bit more about computers.

If the cash wasn't given to me, the private sector workers would just spend slightly more on stuff provided by the private sector.

(And my train driver mate - the little chuggy ones, not big, fast ones - earns more than me.)

Private sector cheaper? Anyone have a like for like example?

They outsourced IT services where I work some years ago, replacing a handful of programmers on 25k.

Now we have many times more private sector programmers on 1k a day and their managers on 1.5k a day. And that's not including the seemingly never ending need for non technical public sector IT contract managers, and their managers earning 30 - 40k.

Costs went up 10x easily. And you can't get anything done without additional funding.

We had a quote recently from contractors for £135 an hour.

£135 per hour. You really think that is expensive?

I'm a Paramedic. My sister in law works in a call centre.

But which would you rather do?

theres a nail hit on the head - the wages attracted by many jobs reflect just how much people want to do the work, not the value of the work. Even very similar jobs have differing salaries simply because people want to do one rather than the other.

If you're a childrens worker you'll likely get paid less than a youth worker, even though the work, skills and qualifications are very similar - simply because more people want to work with younger children than older children.

In my line of work public sector employers in cities pay less than employers in the countryside, when I worked in Inverness I was getting paid almost double the wage of some comparable jobs in London.

They outsourced IT services where I work some years ago, replacing a handful of programmers on 25k.

Now we have many times more private sector programmers on 1k a day and their managers on 1.5k a day. And that's not including the seemingly never ending need for non technical public sector IT contract managers, and their managers earning 30 - 40k.

Costs went up 10x easily. And you can't get anything done without additional funding.

We had a quote recently from contractors for £135 an hour.

That is the single biggest problem with the public sector, they pay way over the odds for IT compared with the private sector and I assume they pay way over the odds for other services. Do you think Tesco pay the rates to IT suppliers you quote?

I did some (non-IT) consultancy work last year.

Public sector clients opened negotiations with a rate about twice that of private.

I work for the public sector in IT and I get the same pay as the private sector.

I can't help wondering what would I get with the job responsibilities plus 12 staff and a department to look after in the private sector

Where I work about 50-60k.

I did some (non-IT) consultancy work last year.

Public sector clients opened negotiations with a rate about twice that of private

Did you haggle them down so as not to rip off the "hard-working taxpayer" who was ultimately footing the bill, or did you just elbow your way to the trough?

Bureaucrats rule! 😆

Make that 3 carbon copies.

A manager of a McDonalds restaurant earns more than a Manager of a large Jobcentre. 😕