[Closed] Public Sector Strike 30/11

What's not to like?

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😀

I couldn't live with my conscience if I crossed a picket-line, unless I was a designated essential service. Because that would make me a scab.

I say do you still live in the 80's?

Oh blimey! Its all getting a bit 1980's. Quick! Hide!

[img] [/img]

Edit: Frodo beat me to it!

....here in the good old cradle of democracy

You live in Greece ? ......no wonder you're so despondent 😐

No. I disagree with the very concept of them.

Summers gives three idea - here are the bullets. For details see FT:

What then is the right response to rising inequality?

First, government must be careful that it does not facilitate increases in inequality by rewarding the wealthy with special concessions.

Second, there is scope for pro-fairness, pro-growth tax reform.

Third, the public sector must insure that there is greater equity in areas of the most fundamental importance.

At the same time, in many parts of the country a gap has opened between the quality of the private school education offered to the children of the rich and the public school educations enjoyed by everyone else. Most alarming is the near doubling over the last generation in the gap between the life expectancy of the affluent and the ordinary.Neither the politics of polarisation nor those of noblesse oblige will serve to protect the interests of the middle class in the post-industrial economy. We will have to find ways to do better.

He does address the over-confidence in trickle down in original post

I like Bob Crow.

Mainly because he really pisses off the up their own arse can't see further than the end of their own noses selfish blinkered idiots who seem to think transportation systems would be better off without properly trained and qualified people to do the jobs...

[i]Could you expand on what you think their concept is, so we know what you're disagreeing about. [/i]

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union ]HTH[/url]

AndyP

No. I disagree with the very concept of them. (unions)

How bizarre, this needs exploring further. What part of the 'concept' of unions do you disagree with? Is it the ability of workers to collectively strive to maintain or improve the conditions of their employment? Or is it that you think employees should have no say in their conditions of employment, and trust that employers have their employee's best interests at heart?

Edit, (very) beaten to it... AndyP, that link is to a wikipedia description of Trade Unions and doesn't prove that you've actually understood it.

Bless.

Interesting link AndyP

As you disagree with the concept of unions, what is your alternative? A return to feudalism perhaps?

Unions became obsolete thanks to employment legislation. They won the argument and are no longer needed.

Not sure how this can be likened to a return to feudalism.

Unions became obsolete thanks to employment legislation. They won the argument and are no longer needed.

funny that, because I've needed and been glad of my union several times in my own 12 year employment history, both personally and collectively. Employment legislation wouldn't have covered it, but my union subs did.

They won the argument and are no longer needed.

So you ask what he disagrees about Unions and he posts a wiki page. So we're none the wiser.

I won't be striking I'd work to rule but I will not withdraw the service I provide.

5E + 1

Trade Unions promote collective bargaining which is against the best interests of talented and hard working employees.

[i]AndyP, that link is to a wikipedia description of Trade Unions and doesn't prove that you've actually understood it.[/i]
It gives a nice precis to those who aren't sure about what Trade Unions are about. I don't have to *prove* anything to you, just as I don't *have* to work somewhere where I am unhappy. Oh, and Wikipedia has a capital W. Bless.

[i]Or is it that you think employees should have no say in their conditions of employment[/i]
Not at all. Don't know about anyone else, but I got a contract when I started my job, and I could choose whether to sign it or not. Also, if something changes which I don't like, I can leave and look for a different job. Meanwhile, I'll continue to work in my office, rather than standing outside with a bunch of cronies, looking miserable and shouting abuse at anyone who wants to fulfill the terms of their contract.

So Andy, according to your link you're genuinely against the concept of people collectively trying to improve their working conditions?

Seems a bit of an odd thing to be against the concept of.

If you'd said that you were against their support of political parties, or something else more tangible then I could understand where you might be coming from.

Beats me why they need to be arguing now then

Trade Unions promote collective bargaining which is against the best interests of talented and hard working employees.

No, it's against the interests of those best able to negotiate themselves a higher wage. Not the same thing.

You also seem to be unaware that most public sector jobs are graded, which renders your argument entirely superfluous.

No. I disagree with the very concept of them. (unions)

Lord above. For real? 😯

Are you actually aware of things that trade unions have given you?

I take it you don't believe in weekends, maximum working hours, equality in the workplace, stuff like that.... 😉

Unions became obsolete thanks to employment legislation. They won the argument and are no longer needed.

In the same way that you don't need an army once you've won a war 😀

I say do you still live in the 80's?

No, I'm someone who accepts a democratic decision.

Meanwhile, I'll continue to work in my office, rather than standing outside with a bunch of cronies, looking miserable and shouting abuse at anyone who wants to fulfill the terms of their contract.

Are you aware that a contract is an agreement between [b]two or more[/b] parties?

Don't know about anyone else, but I got a contract when I started my job, and I could choose whether to sign it or not.

And if your employer decides to fundamentally change the terms in that contract? Maybe sack you and get you to reapply for the same job for significantly less money, as a cost cutting measure? Oh yes, you could vote with your feet, but if one employer thinks it’s a good idea, what’s to stop the others following suit? A union can't promise to stop you being undervalued, but it least it gives you some recompense. Lots of other good reasons, but I fear I'll be going into banging head against brick wall mode again if I'm not careful...

Also, if something changes which I don't like, I can leave and look for a different job.

You could. But I'd look at the unemployment figures first.

Meanwhile, I'll continue to work in my office, rather than standing outside with a bunch of cronies, looking miserable and shouting abuse at anyone who wants to fulfill the terms of their contract.

Heaven forfend that people stand up for what they believe in, eh?

Is AndyP aware that he is free to withdraw his labour and indeed is not beholden to his employer? 😀

And has the right to vote...?

He has the right to vote? Pfft! They'll be letting women do it before long. And just imagine where that will lead?

What about Darkies, Binners? Surely they don't deserve to be paid equally with decent hard-working White folk?? 😯

Mainly because he really pisses off the up their own arse can't see further than the end of their own noses selfish blinkered idiots who seem to think transportation systems would be better off without properly trained and qualified people to do the jobs...

DLR's doing alright, innit 😉

I assume that this has gone the way I'd expect it to and that there's no point me wasting my time reading it?

It gives a nice precis to those who aren't sure about what Trade Unions are about. I don't have to *prove* anything to you, just as I don't *have* to work somewhere where I am unhappy. Oh, and Wikipedia has a capital W. Bless.

Resorting to insults already. You are done here then.

DLR's doing alright, innit

Yeah it is actually. I shall in fact be using it very shortly, and be comforted by the fact that each train carries a [b]Passenger Service Agent[/b] who is fully trained in dealing with emergencies, as this will enable to me to have more confidence in the service, and feel safer on my journey. 🙂

"On 10 March 1987, before the railway opened, a test train crashed through station buffer stops at the original high-level terminus Island Gardens station and was left hanging from the end of the elevated track. The accident was caused by unauthorised tests being run before accident-preventing modifications had been installed. [b]The train was being driven manually at the time[/b]"

Fodo, can you answer:

Lifer - Member

What data sets do the OBR use then? Can't find refernce to it in the OBR report.

And what you mean by:

Your up to your no good mischief as usual.

What is this Public Sector strike you talk of, its 2011, not 1974, they have about as much chance of achieving anything except widespread ridicule and annoyance from us the public, than geting what they want.

Probably youll soon be tuped or privatised and there will be a huge influx of new workers to do the jobs the old workers didnt turn up at their workplace to do.

And then i woke from my condem dream

Just have your strike. Its a free country, you are allowed to. It's hardly going to bring the country to a standstill but will cause some disruption but thats OK, you do have the right to strike.

But then what?

I think the government should be promoting the strike. I mean what's the pay-bill for a days worth of public sector workers?
They could save a fortune if they could encourage them to take a week off.

[b]they[/b] have about as much chance of achieving anything except widespread ridicule and annoyance from [b]us[/b] the public,

so public sector employees are not the public now?

Public sector don't pay tax? I want a rebate, now.(and was feeling left out as everybody else seems to be here)

The accident was caused by unauthorised tests being run before accident-preventing modifications had been installed. The train was being driven manually at the time"

Ah, that isn't a very good account of what actually happened; I remember it as the station was right next to my school. The driver was ordered to crash the train into the buffers, which as it turned out weren't adequate to actually stop the train. Fortunately no-one was hurt.

However:

[url= http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.10090 ]Serco Limited (Serco) the operator of the Docklands Light Railway were today fined £450,000 and ordered to pay £43,773 costs, following a prosecution for a serious health and safety offence brought by the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR).

The incident resulted in the death of a member of the public, Robert Carter, who fell onto the track and was struck by a train. Today’s sentencing follows a guilty verdict at Southwark Crown Court on 30 April 2010.

The ORR prosecution followed an incident on 2 April 2007 at All Saints DLR station. During an altercation between Mr Carter and another person, Mr Carter was pushed and fell onto the track. A short time later he was struck by a train and fatally injured.

ORR investigated and found that Serco had an inadequate procedure in place for stopping trains in an emergency. The company allowed control room staff to decide whether to stop trains based partly on CCTV images. The CCTV system was not designed or intended for this purpose.[/url]

Basically, the automatic systems weren't adequate. Had a human being been driving that train, that accident would not have happened.

t'wundred?

v8ninety - Member
I'll vote Derekrides... He hasn't got any more of a clue how to fix it than the rest of us, but at least he admits as much.

Why thank you V890, er as it happens i do have a bit of a cunning plan, first it involves me writing a book called 'My Struggle' then I need to organise a sort of National Socialist Party, I'm looking for lieutenants right now, then we need to target a minority group everyone hates, I'm thinking road bikers, mobilise the nation against them (All bankers are road bikers), if you could help with the final solution bit, build some camps, maybe Poland way, talk about some extra living room....

oh oh

😯 Perilously close to Godwin's, that...

Perilously close to Godwin's, that...

New definition of "perilously close"

😉 see how easy it can happen.. Road biking bankers

Well, he didn't actually say [i]the[/i] name.

Sorry to drag things back on track, but surely Public sector workers don't have to pay into the pension, they can opt out? Current benefits are set, and they can look into their own pension arrangements.

Or find another job in the private sector. Would that work for them?

ScottChegg, Yeah, seeing as the government wants to move the goalposts, can I have my contributions (employee and employer) that have been paid in so far back then, so I can chose where to invest them instead? Whats that, the governments gone and spent em on war and [s]banks[/s] [b]bailing out the private sector[/b] and such? The [i]swines[/i].

Edited for added trollbaitiness

So what level of pension per annum is acceptable to the public sector haters?

What do the private sector bods think is reasonable for me to have or to expect anything is unreasonable. I will have paid 11% of my monthly pay for 30yrs?

Go on, tell me how much is too much!

or another way

How much is a reasonable amount to live on in my retirement?

V8ninety - you are probably aware but just in case:

From Hutton:

Ex.9 Protecting accrued rights is a prerequisite for reform both to build trust and
confidence and to protect current workers from a sudden change in their pension benefits
or pension age. It is also right that those closest to retirement will be least affected by any
changes to scheme design.

Recommendation 4: The Government must honour in full the pension promises that
have been accrued by scheme members: their accrued rights. In doing so, the Commission
recommends maintaining the final salary link for past service for current members.

Bruneep - a slightly tangential argument. If, as in the mid part of last century, the government (of whichever party) chooses to reduce the debt by maintaining IR below the rate of growth (which I suspect is what they will try to do) then the annuity income you will get from your pension pot will be pretty poor whatever the size of the actual pot.

But the tragedy of this recent period is those who have been financially sensible have been screwed royally.

THM - what happened to not getting involved 😛

See AGW would have been more fun 😉

But the tragedy of this recent period is those who have been financially sensible have been screwed royally.

I'm ANGRY that a relatively small number of MONUMENTALLY stupid and greedy rich people have screwed up the global economy by employing a fiscal model that would see a private citizen bankrupt within a year, yet no one seemed (or wanted to) to realise at the time that it was all going to go tits up.

Ands whats worse, is whilst we all attack each other and fight over the scraps of the broken economy, those same small number of rich powerful people are laughing all the way to the bank.

There will be no winners in this economic tradgedy. There may be a few greedy players at the top which is an abhorrence. The reality is that all of us will have to accept a reduction in our living standards for the forseeable future.

No one has an automatic right to continual pay increases and unaffordable benefits.

The unions need to realise this otherwise all they will do is create the need for further job losses either for their members or indirectly for others.

There will be no winners in this economic tradgedy.

So. Anyone for a beer? Woody's paying.

There will be no winners in this economic tradgedy.

Beer? Ah go on then, I'll have a guinness, cheers! 8)

Ands whats worse, is whilst we all attack each other and fight over the scraps of the broken economy, those same small number of rich powerful people are laughing all the way to the bank.

It's worse than that. They're now installing unelected prime ministers to do their bidding.

v8ninety - Member
But the tragedy of this recent period is those who have been financially sensible have been screwed royally.

This.
THIS.
My Personal Debt ammounts to a medium sized fixed rate mortgage and a small 0% loan on a sofa. No credit cards, no car loan. My choice. I chose my career, in part, because whilst understanding that I would never get rich, I would be able to provide modestly for my family and be able to retire at a point that I wasn't monumentally knackered, Hopefully. Now they want to change that.
I'm ANGRY that a relatively small number of MONUMENTALLY stupid and greedy rich people have screwed up the global economy by employing a fiscal model that would see a private citizen bankrupt within a year, yet no one seemed (or wanted to) to realise at the time that it was all going to go tits up.

Ands whats worse, is whilst we all attack each other and fight over the scraps of the broken economy, those same small number of rich powerful people are laughing all the way to the bank.

Yes, we are on the same page really aren't we.

There are lots and lots and lots of folk who also feel this way, so how on earth do we motivate each other to actually do something about it I wonder... All around my world I'm watching businesses fail, people being laid off, mainly down to bank intransigence with credit, they have the gall to tell us that our world is risky, when it is only risky a) because of their initial activities and b) because they won't help us to help ourselves because now we're too risky. Talk about catch 22.

Every pub, cafe, business, you go to and chat t the owners or staff all report the same discontent, and still they lecture on about austerity. What we fundamentally need is some sort of leadership with a plan and a promise of sun filled uplands, we know they have to do what they have to do, what we don't need to constantly hear about is how much longer it is going to continue for.

I'm sorry I'm off on another rant now - apologies, it does wind me up so.

Junkyard - Member
THM - what happened to not getting involved

See AGW would have been more fun

I know silly me!! I am truly giddy now!!

Still resisting AGW - too painful to re-open that can.

Repeat note to self - avoid any economic/political threads on STW!!!!

Drac - Moderator

So. Anyone for a beer? Woody's paying.

Bruneep - 30 years at 11% would generate a pension of at most 30% of final salary in a money purchase scheme. That is the problem with pensions they are very expensive in a low inflationary enviroment.

i'm just not convinced you have the general public's backing on this.

[b]Probably don't because of the relentless propaganda from the right wing press for years that has led to a totally false impression of what is going on[/b].

He apologised for saying that earlier DS, I'm sure he did.....

I'm looking forward to by day off next week. If security is also on strike they'll shut the place and we don't even lose a day's pay.

He apologised for saying that earlier DS, I'm sure he did.....

How many of the general public, like myself, are basing their opinions on real life experiences in the hands of incompetent public workers?

There are a huge number of others who do a very fine job in the public sector who are rarely given any credit.

My experience is that I have encountered [b]an equal number of muppets in both camps.[/b]

My heart goes out to that public sector worker who would'nt empty my bin this morning, because there was a tiny corner of a bin bag sticking out of the lid!

"Isn't that a problem in itself? Opinions tend to be based around what 'the public' perceive to be your typical 'public servant' with years of stereotyped bowler hatted numbskull imagery exacerbated by personal experiences with the bureaucratic death zone of local and national adminstrations. My experience is that I have encountered an equal number of muppets in both camps."

There are a huge number of others who do a very fine job in the public sector who are rarely given any credit.

Good point well made.

Its a shame the pensions in the public sector are beeing considered as a group. They are in fact very different. In fact renumeration as a whole is very different. NHS pensions were reviewed in 2008 and we increased our contributions then to avoid a pension deficit. Other pensions were not considered in this way (to my knowledge). That isnt to say a further review isnt warranted it clearly is but to lump apples and pears together in this way is a mistake in my view.

I support premise of protest on this issue. I feel it wrong to act in the manner the g'ment are doing. I'm not sure it will make a difference but its reasonable to demonstate the depth of feeling.

teachers was reviewed millcar. No risk of any open ended taxpayer liability

My heart goes out to that public sector worker who would'nt empty my bin this morning, because there was a tiny corner of a bin bag sticking out of the lid!

😯 A public sector worker empties your bins ?! (although obviously not this morning) ......whereabouts do you live ?

BTW, it won't get any better when it's finally privatised.....I can assure you.

Skimmed thru the middle parts.. But was looking at Andyps comments.. The one that Drac commented on, where was there an insult in that..? The "w in Wikipedia" part or "bless"? Someone had, I believe already patronised him by using the latter in response to one of his posts..
Anyways, I'm in a union, and I voted for the action. I work for the ambulance service and was having a bit of a crisis of conscience about actually striking. We're exempt from the action thankfully so I won't need to strike. Think nurses are the same? Seems like a sensible decision to me bearing in mind public opinion (phew)..

Not sure why you skimmed the important parts and picked on that one, you might want to go back and read some of the other stuff. Amongst the normal rants of lazy public sector workers go and get a proper job there's some good comments by both views.

. I work for the ambulance service and was having a bit of a crisis of conscience about actually striking. We're event from the action thankfully so I won't need to strike. Think nurses are the same? Seems like a sensible decision to me.

Where you read/hear that? From what I seen we're not.

I believe that UNISON has a nationwide emergency cover protocol :

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:DkD_iA3yNYoJ:www.unison.org.uk/news/printablepage.asp%3Fdid%3D13675+unison+emergency+protocol&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

It sounds as if there should better communications between the shop-floor and full-time officials/regional offices. It works both ways really.

geologist - Member
My heart goes out to that public sector worker who would'nt empty my bin this morning, because there was a tiny corner of a bin bag sticking out of the lid!

Posted 1 hour ago # Report-Post

But he will have double the load next week, and will have lost days pay as well.

Perhaps you should remind him why he went on strike.

We do need better communication I'd I love the know where they'd find enough registered Paramedics to cover all parts of the country as it's just not possible.

I haven't heard anything definite either and neither had the union rep I spoke to yesterday.

It's was my understanding that the exemptions are negotiated at national level within the framework but [url= http://www.unison.org.uk/healthcare/pages_view.asp?did=13746 ]This Unison link[/url] only mentions negotiation regarding cover levels.