Hence as i said earlier – unless the staff can agree to put the tips back into the pot by a voluntary method, what is the alternative?
depends very much on what is in the contract and how the tips policy is written but deductions from wages are illegal unless in the contract or for a few specific reasons
As a customer I would prefer my tip to go to the person that served me. Why bother tipping good service if the person just gets an average anyway. So tipping say £15 rather than £5 will mean maybe 1p more in their pay packet.
Seems to be rife with problems anyway. My son worked in a bar./restaurant for a while and the general manager who wasn't involved in day to day running took a big share. How much? Nobody knows exactly because there wasn't a clear method of divvying up. One weeked the staff calculated to approx tip total and reckoned about a quarter went to the GM.
It doesn't have to specifically be written into everyone's contract, it sounds like it is documented elsewhere (the OP refers to 'against the policy which we have ran in our pubs since we started the business' - not clear if that is a written policy or it's just a 'custom and practice' agreement). I'm pretty sure the contracts (for a chain or group even more so) would if not written out in full at least say something like 'adhere to policies in place'. My work has hundreds of pages of policies relating to all sorts, my contract is 3 pages but includes adhering to the various other hundreds........
It also sounds like there is a procedure for this 'should still have been included in the monthly tips form' so all are aware what should be done; locally someone has decided not to.
Other than a voluntary pay back of what was removed from the kitty, I'm not sure what else is right legally, but the more I write and think the moral position gets clearer. If they don't then the gates are opened for staff to pocket any cash tip they can get away with and if 'caught' simply shrug and say so what?
depends very much on what is in the contract and how the tips policy is written but deductions from wages are illegal unless in the contract or for a few specific reasons
The flipside of that is that the staff on the night stole the money from the rest of the staff? Which would be fine if say every shift did that every day, but otherwise as the other John V points out, every other shift has pooled their tips and the OP's relations have taken a share, but they've not pooled their own.
I've worked in a kitchen that had the opposite extreme policy (you kept your own tips), which when combined with the sexist policy of FOH being the girls and the pot-wash being the boys meant they were earning double what we were some shifts (and didn't go home stinking of dirty dishwater).
On IRC's point about tipping the serving staff only, I can see your point, but it's a team effort. You wouldn't tip the serving staff however polite they were if the food was an hour late, cold and served on dirty plates.
It doesn’t have to specifically be written into everyone’s contract
the deductions from wages needs to be. the tips policy does not but does need to be a part of a written policy IMO
As to Alpin - yes, true. Equally word gets around and you might find it harder to find new work if you have a reputation of hiding your tips and still taking your share of everyone else's.
@irc - sort of agree but as others have said, the service is not just how well the waiter performed, but also how the barman and chef performed.
Not one member of staff has an issue with tips being pooled and shared between FOH and kitchen staff.
Then why did they not raise this when they received more tips during this period.
depends very much on what is in the contract and how the tips policy is written but deductions from wages are illegal unless in the contract or for a few specific reasons
You could view it as a deduction from wages....but it isn't is it really. They were given some of their pay early - by hook or by crook. By the time their pay arrives in their bank account they will have been paid every single penny they are owed - they effectively just put their had in the tip pot/till (or more likely a ring leader did it for them) and taken some ahead of the standard pay date. And it would not have to be written into the wage slip as a deduction - just payment 1 and payment 2.
Yes, I'm sure some arse of a solicitor could argue that rules have been breached. But would you really want to go that way? They are getting paid every penny they worked for on or ahead of time, getting their fair share of tips as per the company policy and are not getting sacked for gross misconduct. Id call that a reasonable state of affairs.
Would the OPs lad and girlfriend be happy if a couple of staff on the shift with them had pocketed the tips they got as they felt they had worked harder than them (or were just greedy) instead of putting it in the team pot? Would they be hoping for some sort of redress from 'the management' to compensate them in that case and what would that have looked like? Take that and work backwards as to how they feel about the email they received.
Bigger picture - is the division of tips fair? Should those working the least pleasant nights of the year get compensated more in terms of tips? There must have been a reason why normal methods were not abided by this time.
I'm not sure whether a science industry manager or a retired nurse are qualified to really know, but I'd have thought good practice would be to have a tips policy and everyone's contract pointing to it, including what enforcement is applicable in case of non-adherence
Then if that needs revising (eg: to tighten up the NYE situation) you don't have to rewrite everyone's contract individually.
Anyway, like I say not a total expert.
but I’d have thought good practice would be to have a tips policy and everyone’s contract pointing to it, including what enforcement is applicable in case of non-adherence
And in standard STW fashion we have all blathered on not knowing if this is the case already, as the OP's post is neither particularly informative about these salient points or particularly objective.
Yes, I’m sure some arse of a solicitor could argue that rules have been breached
No lawyer needed. Tribunals for unauthorised deductions. Open and shut case. ( unless there is a clawback clause in the contracts)
As a customer I would prefer my tip to go to the person that served me.
A good server knows their tips won't appear if
The food is shite
The food takes ages
The food is cold
The food is on a dirty plate
The drinks late
The glasses are warm
The table is clean
I've dealt with kitchen **** ups plenty of times and kitchens have dug me out of mistakes I've made just as much by rapid turnarounds, additional meals etc. I've had headchefs come out to distract customers while we've dealt with total arseholes having a fight outside a floor to ceiling window in the centre of Glasgow. And I have had barmen do impromptue whisky tastings to groups of Americans.
Etc.
So a good server won't begrudge splitting with a good team because you will end up with more than you would get if you get nothing.
No lawyer needed. Tribunals for unauthorised deductions. Open and shut case. ( unless there is a clawback clause in the contracts)
But does that make the employer wrong ? or are the Employees actually in the wrong here ? Just because the law would be on their side, doesn't make them right.
Arguably they ripped their colleagues off... i'd be pretty miffed at that if i were one.
Should those working the least pleasant nights of the year get compensated more in terms of tips?
On the basis the prices are higher those days, ticketed events, etc. do staff not get time and a half or whatever? That would seem to be the better option.
No lawyer needed. Tribunals for unauthorised deductions. Open and shut case. ( unless there is a clawback clause in the contracts)
Would you go there? In your pocket you have every penny you are entitled to either on time or ahead of time. You tried to rip off your colleagues, were caught out and redress was made. You didn't lose your job and didn't get an official warning. You have not lost out financially a single penny.
I think the answer to this can say a lot about you as a person......
and this is why you cant do nice things.. first someone ignores rule 1, then someone else tries to legislate for it, then its ruined.
How were the numbers of £28.50/£30.00 arrived at? Who knows how much in total was tipped in cash on those two nights? Unless it's properly documented (as card payment tips are), those numbers are just made up which is is patently unreasonable. Imagine your pay slip under 'deductions' : imaginary made up number: -££.pp
That would not fly in any working environment.
I can see the point about recovering the divvied up cash tips on the two 'best' nights of the year if they've been distributed against custom and practice but, how are they valued? And I'm 'pretty sure' the recovery process can't be mandatory/automatic if they can't be reliably valued regardless of their contracts or normal customs.
They should all walk out at the start of their shift and let the management handle the service. See how they get on.
No lawyer needed.
Unless the other staff that the tips belonged to kick up a fuss about the money being taken. At which point hopefully someone points out that the net difference is probably a couple of quid at most (£30, divided by ~20 shifts a month?) and police/lawyers/tribunals are a waste of time effort and money.
Also, I'm assuming that the tips are cashed in and then paid out via payroll. So they're not having their "pay" deducted, they're just not being given the portion of the tips they unilaterally decided to keep for themselves.
How were the numbers of £28.50/£30.00 arrived at? Who knows how much in total was tipped in cash on those two nights? Unless it’s properly documented (as card payment tips are), those numbers are just made up which is is patently unreasonable. Imagine your pay slip under ‘deductions’ : imaginary made up number: -££.pp
That would not fly in any working environment.
I can see the point about recovering the divvied up cash tips on the two ‘best’ nights of the year if they’ve been distributed against custom and practice but, how are they valued? And I’m ‘pretty sure’ the recovery process can’t be mandatory/automatic if they can’t be reliably valued regardless of their contracts or normal customs.
Bigger or more organised pub and restaurants have a pretty organised approach to tips these days - kind of have to. It'll have been ledgered up somewhere as it was handed in by staff or put on credit cards. I'd be amazing if there was not a pretty robust taceable ledger to back up those numbers. My guess is the shift leader/manager took the decision to hand out on the night to those working as they would have access to the numbers.
And in standard STW fashion we have all blathered on not knowing if this is the case already, as the OP’s post is neither particularly informative about these salient points or particularly objective.
Made me laugh and par for the course.
My blather is it isn’t a deduction but a recovery of a payment that shouldn’t have been made as didn’t follow the policy. Shouldn’t stop the no win no fee lawyers queuing around the block though given the money at stake.
OP mentioned there is some sort of system for divvying up tips so it's not like the staff didn't know what to do.
‘should still have been included in the monthly tips form’
Bigger or more organised pub and restaurants have a pretty organised approach to tips these days
Yes, it's called Tronc.
I don't work in hospitality, but know it's a pretty standard piece of functionality required in the software used to run hospitality companies these days.
But but... If you were going to divvy up the tips on the night it would be in cash or you'd be taking the Company’s money from the till.
If it's cash tips (rather than cards) you'd never key it into 'Tronc' or whatever you'd just divvy it up no?
We NEED to know. Did they do a tips return (dobbing themselves in) and did they disberse the card payment tips from cash in the till?
If the answer is 'yes' to these, they deserve all they get (in terms of fallout). The former is naive, the latter mebbies borderline theft.
The staff may well have acted wrongly. Moot point. What the management is proposing is almost certainly illegal. 2 wrongs do not make a right
My original reaction was that this was a wrongful and illegal deduction, but it sounds like, instead of registering the tips on the system, someone in charge on those two days has simply divvied them up on the spot. Which, depending on how the tips are eventually paid out to staff, would make it a payroll correction?
Personally, I don't think the (likely) higher tips for those particular shifts should be distributed among everyone who got to spend CD and NYE with their friends and family rather than working. And management should never get a cut unless they are working service as well.
So it sounds like they're all in the wrong.
Hanging, flaying etc too good for em all. Whether filthy capitalist b'stard Management or sticky fingered downtrodden workers.
Rotten, the lot of em 🤪
Harrumph etc...
What the management is proposing is almost certainly illegal. 2 wrongs do not make a right
Just spoken to someone in payroll (fascinating lunchtime chat - note to self - don't talk payroll to payroll peeps at lunchtime!)who says you are talking rot.
would make it a payroll correction?
appears to be the correct answer (caveat - if you get your wording right) regardless of minimum wages caveat emptors. You'd just treat it as payment in advance and write it up accordingly.
note to self – don’t talk payroll to payroll peeps at
lunchtimeever
FTFY
Equally applies to HR, Marketing etc...
convert. Check the tuc link about wages deductions. It is not a payroll correction as tips are not pay
convert. Check the tuc link about wages deductions. It is not a payroll correction as tips are not pay
You know what - I can't be arsed! Sorry, not my pub or my wage! But I've spoken to someone with an armful of quals more than me who is a very fair and reasonable person. And that's good enough for me.
Now on to more interesting topics!
If they've gone against the custom of sharing the tips by an established process and/or converted card tips to cash by dipping the till on the night, are you still so absolutely certain they're being 'wronged'?
There's both a legal and moral side to this. Sure, two wrongs don't make a right; the right way to resolve is for the staff who worked these shifts to put what they took back into the pot so it can be shared out properly. Failing to do so is in effect stealing from their colleagues, particularly as it seems they are sharing everyone else tips from other nights equitably.
are you still so absolutely certain they’re being ‘wronged’?
yes because deductions from wages are illegal. the staff have also done wrong
There’s both a legal and moral side to this. Sure, two wrongs don’t make a right; the right way to resolve is for the staff who worked these shifts to put what they took back into the pot so it can be shared out properly.
correct
There’s both a legal and moral side to this. Sure, two wrongs don’t make a right; the right way to resolve is for the staff who worked these shifts to put what they took back into the pot so it can be shared out properly. Failing to do so is in effect stealing from their colleagues, particularly as it seems they are sharing everyone else tips from other nights equitably.
Agreed
the right way to resolve is for the staff who worked these shifts to put what they took back into the pot so it can be shared out properly.
+1
And it looks like the management are providing this opportunity in their notification.
A good server knows their tips won’t appear if
The food is shite
The food takes ages
The food is cold
The food is on a dirty plate
The drinks late
The glasses are warm
The table is clean
You don't tip if the table is clean?
yes because deductions from wages are illegal. the staff have also done wrong
So they should be sacked for Gross Misconduct and hand their 'stolen' tips back so they can be redistributed correctly via their final payslip?
It is not a payroll correction as tips are not pay
Revisiting this again after a think:
It depends how the tip is presented - cash/card etc and whether the in-house scheme involves the tips being administered by a Tronc-type arrangement at arms length from the company or by the company itself.
Cash tips are problematic because they are effectively completely separate from the transaction between the customer and the business. They belong at that point to the member of staff, and the business cannot force or coerce them to hand them over. Even a contractual term saying you agree to pool them is not necessarily binding. If some high roller tips me a grand for bringing him his food, there's nothing the company can do.
At this point though, it seems like the staff members have already freely handed their tips over to the company during the shift. But a representative of the company has then divvied them up at the end of the shift instead of correctly entering them into the ledger. Obviously, this is just the cash tips, card tips will have gone into the system.
So the company would say it (via the shift manager, or whoever) has effectively wrongly paid out this portion of the monthly tips against its policy, and is remedying this with a payroll deduction.
yes because deductions from wages are illegal.
I'm assuming this isn't a "deduction from wages".
It would be a deduction from the tips. Unless they only worked those particular shifts then presumably the total tips will exceed the tips for those days and they'll just get that much less tips.
Unless they're paying the tips by a completely separate process to normal payroll, which seems unlikely?
Well, if nothing else this thread has confirmed one thing to me. The entire concept of tipping in the UK is bloody stupid. It's a hangover from the US where they're unwilling or incapable of paying reasonable wages to hospitality staff. You wouldn't bung a couple of quid to the lass on the checkout in Lidl for a particularly efficient scan of your shopping, or go "and have one yourself" at the local fishmonger.
Add 10% onto every item on the menu. Add 10% to everyone's wage. Print "we cannot accept monetary gratuities" on the bottom of the menu. Problem solved next question.
Ban Tipping. Pay staff properly and be done with it.
You dont get tipped if you work in Tesco, or Currys, or countless other shitty jobs.
Add 10% onto every item on the menu
Steady on, the bastards are doing that already... '12.5% service charge has been added to this bill'. ****ers.
Happy (well maybe 'prepared' is more accurate) to tip for good service but 12.5% at Frank & Bennys or similar...? 'Here's your food' arrives at 30mph like a freshly microwaved frisbe...
I'd rather it be discretionary with some (imagined) relationship between 'good service' and increased reward.
Cash tips are problematic because they are effectively completely separate from the transaction between the customer and the business. They belong at that point to the member of staff, and the business cannot force or coerce them to hand them over.
... which is exactly why many customers do it.
In the US you're paying wages. In the UK you're giving a bonus for exceptional service. Clean plates should be a bare minimum, not a reason to tip. "Stick another fiver in there Bob, did you see how immaculate the forks were?!" Folk want to tip the waiter for enhancing their dining experience, not the chef for not poisoning them. No?
I've been tipped in non-hospitalty jobs.
And it's not much different to teachers etc receiving chocolates/wine/whatever. Hell, even our postie gets a bottle at Xmas. I've no idea if the local postie's all pool gifts or not and I don't really care. We've shown our appreciation.
Hell, even our postie gets a bottle at Xmas
'Thanks for delivering my bills all year ya bastard!!' 🙃
