My son and his girlfriend work in a pub and today received the following email from the 'management'. I use 'management' as the STW swear filter would kick in if I expressed my thoughts.
"Hi Guys,
Following on from the reminder message sent on the global staff WhatsApp group, you all need to be made aware that the agreements made regarding tips on Christmas Day & New Years Eve go against the policy which we have ran in our pubs since we started the business. This means that tips which were distributed on these days should still have been included in the monthly tips form which would be due to be organised on the 20th January.
As a result, and to rectify this for all of our team at <redacted>, we will be recovering the following amounts from everyone who worked on these days in your January pay packet
Christmas Day £28.50
New Years Eve £30 (Runner £15)
(If these amounts are not correct, please let me know at the earliest opportunity)
You will all receive your monthly tips as normal and in agreement with your line manager.
Let me make it perfectly clear, any tips that are given by our customers should be accepted by the staff member and immediatly placed in the communal tips jar. No tips should ever be split between staff members at the end of a shift.
Thank You"
Aware it's zero hours contracts but nothing has been signed regarding tips or even published. Is it legal to recover money from a pay check in lieu of tips without staff consent? @tjagain I'd be really interested in your take on this.
Really pissed off on their behalf as part of the reason is that the 'management' can take their cut.
we will be recovering the following amounts from everyone who worked on these days in your January pay packet
This sounds rather like an un-authorised deduction. Time to lawyer and union up.
Edit: If the message is from a line manager then it may be worth a chat with HR as if my guess above is correct the company will be in whole world of pain and liability.
go against the policy which we have ran in our pubs since we started the business
Have your son and girlfriend been working to this policy (even if informal) and did they change this approach for those 2 days?
Sounds like a bit of a shitty approach, but if tips are usually split between waiting, bar and kitchen staff then it would be a bit off to cut people out on the biggest days of the year
No way can they deduct money from wages for that. from what I know that would be an open and shut case.
As for the tip sharing - its what local policy is. distribute after each night or after a week or a month or a year IIRC
Management should not be taking a cut of tips either.
Policy - is that written or just verbal agreement?
Also, they can't deduct from wages without written agreement or for a very specific reason. This isn't one of those reasons.
Living in the Tip Continent Of The World (North America), isn't this fairly normal? Tips generally get spread throughout all staff, not just pocketed by the people taking the money.
@walleater Sure if it's agreed in advance, which this isn't, but to deduct from wages?
What does the contract say for deductions when people have been helping themselves to tips?
Having worked as a chef where front-of-house staff have pocketed rather large tips (like 3 figures) for serving food I've cooked then I applaud any place that pools tips. I'd be inclined to think that FOH staff unofficially changing how the tips are distributed for the couple of nights when tips are likely to be at their largest is a shitty thing to do.
Looks like a case of Staff Ripping off Staff!!!
go against the policy which we have ran in our pubs
Unforgivable 🙂
Honestly, that sounds pretty fair to me? Is your issue that folk that didn’t work those days will get the increased tip?
Oh no doubt its a bit shitty not to share the tips if that is usual practice but deductions from wages is not the answer
I would be in a union already but if not they need to be.
https://www.tuc.org.uk/research-analysis/reports/deductions-pay
How about if the additional tips taken were withheld from the usual monthly tip distribution?
I can't imagine they had folk fighting over doing the new years and Xmas shifts.
When I worked FOH and later the bar. Tips were pooled and distributed end of night with the team who worked that night - Meant those that did the shitty shifts that tipped well got renumerated for giving up their evening ...... Double bubble on new years eve helped me give mine up also.
At my wife's employer all tips are pooled across the business and distributed based on the hours worked. Pocketing tips would be gross misconduct.
There was a case recently where a guest left a 4 figure tip at reception for everyone and an envelope containing a heartfelt thank you note and an undisclosed sum of money specifically for the housekeeper who had serviced their room all week. Management removed the cash and added it to the pool and handed the letter to the lady it was intended for. She was understandably rather upset at this.
What, in their employment contracts (assuming they exist), refers to or allows for variations to agreements regarding dismbursement of tips?
Make noise about this or find some alternative jobs.
As for tj's views - he may have some experience of union representation in the NHS which is irrelevant to issues in UK hospitality - unless there is a clear legal breach.
This should be seen as another life lesson - and trust no-one, ever.
true frank - I should have said that
However deductions from wages unless contractual or other limited circumstances are illegal
Sounds like the shift manager has screwed up and just distributed the tips to the folk who were there rather than following the correct procedure. Tips are subject to tax just like any other pay.
Thanks for all the answers. It is really useful to hear from ALL sides, really.
To clarify. Deductions will be taken from pay regardless of tips received. Management (the owners) will be taking a cut before tips are redistributed.
Not one member of staff has an issue with tips being pooled and shared between FOH and kitchen staff. The issue is around this non-existant agreement and the fact that money is to be deducted from pay cheques. Again, the management WILL be taking a cut.
I'm with TJ on this, unless there is some clause in the contract that they've signed this would be an illegal deduction from wages, doesn't matter what industry you're in.
Flip side is if they actually had £ 28.50 out of the tips pool of Christmas Eve I'd not bother challenging it as they appear to have broken tips policy. If it's a completely made up number I'd tell them to stuff it.
Trouble is like most employment law there's no real come back for most employees, especially ones on zero hours contracts.
Either way I'd be looking for another employer, is hospitality still desperate for employees?
Management (the owners) will be taking a cut before tips are redistributed.
IIRC this is also illegal - certainly frowned upon practice. management taking a share of tips is wrong. there has been some recent case law on this I believe but this is from an old mans memory
That’s why I always ask the foh if they get the tip, fairly! And try to leave cash if I have it!
"Dear the management,
No you won't.
Love and kisses,
The guys."
Irrespective of who's right and who's wrong here, this is petty power-tripping bollocks for the sake of a few quid and I'd be voting with my feet. Why not give all the staff a £50 Christmas bonus and be done with it? My Christmas bonus was £50 and I was frankly offended.
If tips are usually paid with their hourly rate then I don’t see anything wrong as it’s not technically a deduction it’s just the second part of the months payment.
Managers may be eligible for a cut of the tips, but owners or directors shouldn’t be.
Interesting article here https://squareup.com/gb/en/townsquare/tip-sharing
Not sure if the legislation was passed though.
If the tips are, by contract, to be handed in to then be handed out (in your pay packet or cash) pro rata - who 'owns' the tip money in that totting up phase? The pub? If that's the contractual arrangement - could the staff on the night not have committed some sort of theft?
Are they strictly deducting pay, or just acknowledging they have been part paid early (or they are trying to engineer it like that) - then getting their correct allocations of tips (according to the contract) like other workers.
As an aside, if this is not what's normally done, why did it happen this time? And who was the 'ring leader'?
And, yes - I too feel that those working xmas eve and NYE deserve a bit more of a cut than if it was a usual Saturday night.
However deductions from wages unless contractual or other limited circumstances are illegal
This. I got heavily involved in meetings with my old company's HR advisor after an employee didn't work their notice period. Essentially the MD Was furious and couldn't believe she had so little comeback. The HR person basically said
You must not **** with an employee's salary payment under any circumstances
Fair enough that's patently bollocks, but I reckon the employer in the OP would get a thoroughly slapping in Court.
who ‘owns’ the tip money in that totting up phase?
That's what I am thinking. The management can take some away without anyone knowing if they are counting the tips. Rather weird way of sharing the tips as well.
Who are counting the tips?
In my view, tips should either be shared at the end of the night/day whatever or just to the person serving.
Management removed the cash and added it to the pool and handed the letter to the lady it was intended for.
What a nasty thing to do. Yes, the management might just say that is his/her duty etc but the guest was happy with her service so gave her a tip. Perhaps the guest would not give a tip if another employee served him/her. Feel a sorry for her.
Why shouldn’t a manager get part share of the tips ?
If they are a good manager , and what they do adds to the smooth running of the shift and allows individuals to do their part unhindered ?
It sounds like the tips were shared out at the end of the night as cash in hand. Is that Tax evasion or avoidance ? 😉
I don’t agree with the taking it out of your wages bit, but perhaps they want it all doing by the book in case HMRC come sniffing about . There should be a record of tips . Looks a bit suspicious if there is no record of the tips , especially during a festive period .
I can see both sides, if tips are supposed to be shared then that should be followed; conversely making the decision to dock wages should be a conscious one - ie: it's come to attention that Xmas day tips were distributed that night, this is against policy and we would like staff to repay to enable them to be shared as per etc. - not enforced.
Where does the actual £28.50 / £30 number come from? Are you still better off, if you've received more than that? I'm not sure having never worked in hospitality but I have eaten out a few times and try to have at least a £5 to leave for the waiter, or more depending on size of bill. At Christmas, £28.50 in tips sounds quite light, or am I miles off?
Also tips do not count for minimum wage purposes and any deductions must leave you above minimum wage even if those deductions are contractually allowed
Why shouldn’t a manager get part share of the tips ?
Because they earn more than enough by comparison to those working hourly.
If they are a good manager , and what they do adds to the smooth running of the shift and allows individuals to do their part unhindered ?
That's the role of manager, unless s/he is also serving customers.
It sounds like the tips were shared out at the end of the night as cash in hand. Is that Tax evasion or avoidance ? 😉
Income has to be declared but live and let live. These workers are earning peanuts.
I don’t agree with the taking it out of your wages bit, but perhaps they want it all doing by the book in case HMRC come sniffing about .
That's up to the workers/employees to declare themselves. The employer pays the workers as in their work agreement. Beyond that should be employees own responsibility. i.e. to declare their tips etc.
That’s the role of manager, unless s/he is also serving customers.
Manager can be a rather loose term in the pub trade. A shift 'manager' can often be paid £1-2 ph more than the rest of the shift and for that they get the honour of unlocking and locking up, cashing up and listening to customer complaints. The rest of the time they are just another grommet pulling pints and wiping tables. If they didn't get a cut of the tips, they'd be the poorest paid member of staff working that night.
Because they earn more than enough by comparison to those working hourly.
If they didn’t get a cut of the tips, they’d be the poorest paid member of staff working that night.
Mate if mine is a shift manager and that can often be the case.
Manager can be a rather loose term in the pub trade. A shift ‘manager’ can often be paid £1-2 ph more than the rest of the shift and for that they get the honour of unlocking and locking up, cashing up and listening to customer complaints. The rest of the time they are just another grommet pulling pints and wiping tables. If they didn’t get a cut of the tips, they’d be the poorest paid member of staff working that night.
I see. When I was working in the Chinese restaurant in London many moons ago the manager (also known as "Captain") only ordered us around. Only help out if it was busy. Perhaps the pub trade is different.
Point of clarification
Is the pub deducting the money from the staff salaries? Or are they deducting money from the tips pool?
I’d think there was a huge difference in law
They are deducting from salary. All staff are zero hours contract if that makes a difference.
unless its written into the contract and after the deduction they still earn above minimum wage its an illegal deduction IMO
Any time I have worked somewhere with shitey tips policy the stuff have been pretty adept at adapting. Mainly by taking absolute advantage to the poor stock control.
All for pooling tips though it's way to variable if you get a cushty shift with amazing tips you know that someone might get an absolute stinker with 50p left at the end and that some one might be you.
Just walk....
Every pub/restaurant/retail place seems to be crying out for staff.
No need to put up with that bullshit.
r/antiwork
Am I reading it right,
They made some "alternative arrangement" for distributing tips on 2 days (took the cash?) and the management is saying hey will be deducting the tips you took from the paycheck, and it will be distributed according to the usual policy in Januarys Paycheck?
In which case the only outcome where they end in a worse position than they are now, is if they took more than their fair share of the tips?
^ that's an interesting point, particularly on zero hours.
But just to understand..... so they divvied up the Xmas day and NYE tips between the staff that worked it instead of potting it to divide up centrally ' as the rules say they should '
So while they are docking salaries, in reality the reduction compensates for the tips they took out of the pot. I assume (although it wasn't answered when I asked before) that this is where the £28.50 / £30 numbers come from
On a technicality that might put them below minimum wage but in terms of what they actually got at the end of the shift they should still be whole.
Then the docked money goes into the tips pot which will be then given out again. So they then get the tip money back (albeit a smaller share of it because it is going in centrally).
While you can argue that working Xmas Day or NYE is a bigger commitment, and i do see that - can i posit an alternate view....
which is that everyone else put all the tips from their non-Xmas day / NYE shifts in to be divvied up, and your son and girlfriend will be taking their share of that, even if they didn't work those shifts, as well as not putting in their tips from these specific shifts? That doesn't seem right either.
So while there's a lot of focus on the legalities of what the company is doing, I think in this case it sounds like they are morally on higher ground than your son and girlfriend?
Did i miss something?
Its two separate issues
1) the staff did not follow usual policy for tips on those nights ( but is this a written policy?)
2) the management want to reclaim this money by an unauthorised and illegal IMO clawback from wages
it is two separate points, but if i was one of the other staff that didn't work these shifts it sounds like they are sharing my tips but not sharing theirs?
Hence as i said earlier - unless the staff can agree to put the tips back into the pot by a voluntary method, what is the alternative?
(I note re-reading the OP that the management have asked staff to confirm if the £28.50 / £30 is not correct, so that's the cue to own up)
