[Closed] Prostate cancer

Thanks for that.

I'll just have to go and check now.....

There are several other symptoms as well, check out http://prostatecanceruk.org/

My wife is a urology nurse so I get to hear all about it! My dad also had it about 3 years ago. Very treatable if caught earlyish and quite slow growing (so I am led to believe).

My dad made a full recovery after having his removed.

When you get to a certain age, go to the doctors for your wellbeing checks.

Yes we will almost all get it, well all males

But most will die with it not of it

O.P, long shot I know but his name isn't Mark is it?

I found out today that one of my team who I've worked with for 15 years was diagnosed on Friday. He's also back at the MRI on Monday. He's 3 pay packets away from his retirement.

Lucky bloke - blood in jizz is not that common a symptom for it. Seen it once with prostate cancer, and probably diagnosed 80. Most times blood in jizz is nothing, but get it checked.

Despite what you read in the press - the PSA is useful for investigating people with [i]symptoms[/i], but pretty useless at screening normal individuals with no symptoms. So it is not done routinely as a screening test in NHS Health Checks.

Tests which are useful for diagnosis ain't always good for screening.
Some cancers have good screening tests for them, eg Cervix and Colon, some have less good tests eg Breast. And some (prostate, ovary and pancreas) have no useful [i]screening [/i]test for those with no symptoms.

For people with prostate Cancer - very little evidence over the age of 70 that aggressive treatment alters the outcome, and probably 50% of men aged 90 have it.

I have 3 friends in their 50s with it - two Drs and one Dentist.

If you do develop symptoms - hesitancy, reduced flow, going at night, blood in your wee, etc etc, get to your GP pronto.

Multiparametric MRI has been a game changer too.

My dad died of Prostate canccer, it slowly creeps up on you, and starts affecting other parts of your body, like making bone fragile, so they break easier, various treatments like radio active pellets injected into stomach and lots of tablets etc.

stoatsbrother - what do you think of the argument that if you dont have symptoms you should not have PSA test as it often gives false positives that result in nasty follow-up investigations?

In France the PSA test is done every couple of years from 50. A single test is useless in diagnosis as everyone has their own natural PSA level and range of variation, but a sudden and significant increase is a good indicator.

I was diagnosed with it last summer aged 48. I had my prostate removed by keyhole surgery end Nov last year. Hopefully contained to the organ that is no more, but still in the 3 monthly PSA checks, which, all going well, go out to 6 monthly in around 4 weeks. Some unpleasant side effects for a few months post surgery but was back on bikes after 2 months.

There are a few others on here who have had same op.

Stoatsbrother - the male members of my family over a certain age have yearly PSA tests for screening purposes.

I understand the drawbacks and limitations but is the test really useless for screening?

My father had no symptoms until his limbs started to hurt by which time it was too late. A PSA test would have picked his up - it was astronomical when the first symptoms started.

I'm due a PSA test next month, is it worth bothering?

^^^^^ it can be genetic. My Consultant suggests that my boys, who are 9 and 12 should be regularly screened once they get to around 40.

My uncle, who is in his mid 70's has it, my elder brother is so far clear, as is my dad, in his mid 80's (although in his case he hasn't had a PSA test in 20 yrs, but no symptoms, so he probably has it, given his age, but he'll likley not die of it)

My own PSA was not that high, at 5.6, but it was just over 6 when checked a year later, so went for a biopsy and unfortunately found to be cancer.

My dad had/has it. He had his psa checked since 50 every 2 years through his work health check, so had a baseline. When he moved off the baseline he was caught very quickly and now it's all being managed.

I've also been told I need do it from 40 as someone else said for the reasons already said. Anyone questioning if the should get it checked out should just get it checked out. My Dad had a crap year, but is fine now although will always need to keep an eye on it. As with all cancer, time will always help, leaving it late will not.

Stoatsbrother... spooky about your friends, I was a dentist and diagnosed at 49, coincidence I guess, but odd all the same.
My only symptom ,with hindsight, was reduced flow, which cleverly I ignored (really should have known better), ended up with a PSA of 24, but still here 10ish years later 🙂
Very conflicting info about children. We've been told that our son doesn't need to be tested any more than anyone else. Can't say I'm convinced by that advice.

I should have stayed well clear of this thread! My dad's just been diagnosed - apparently he must have had it for years, as it's now too bad to operate on and has also spread to his bones (looks like he's going to be having plates and whatnot screwed in his hips).
God knows what's next, as he's still got to go for more tests/scans. Absolutely gutted is a major understatement.

Anyone wondering whether or not to go for tests, get yourself there. My dad would probably be taking drugs for prostitis and still wouldn't have been diagnosed if he hadn't have gone for a second opinion (and took the offer of a fast-track screening from that).

I'm not sure 'good luck' is the right thing to wish anyone dealing with cancer, but I'm not sure what else to put.

Sorry to hear that, D45. My old man told me that he went to see about a pain in his leg.. he got his prostate checked, felt firm, so after tests they reckon they caught it in time. Waiting for the results, I gave him a lift in the car and as I dropped him off, the path was icy and he landed on his arm/shoulder. Not knowing anything as far as how far it had gone through him, I thought that if it reached a point where it got into his bones, he would've snapped with the way he went down. I convinced myself that it couldn't be too bad after this fall as he seemed fine and never broke anything. Months on, he has been through 40 days or radium and the outcome was cancer on the surface of the prostate so I think that meant that they could make 'less of a mess' in and around that area. The results as the months went by seem to have dropped for the better. They told him they were very happy with the way things have gone but after the radium treatment, he's yet to find out how it'll all turn out.

Like it's been mentioned above,its a slow growing cancer and quite often older guys will die of some other problem.

OP - there is good support out there for your friend, with the cancer charities. I was lucky being handy for Maggie's in Lanarkshire. Most of the support is geared to men in their mid 60's on and there is less for those of us a good bit younger. I had massive help from some very kind people I got in touch with through this and other places, including crewlie who posted earlier. Email in profile if your pal wants any info.

I am another with prostate cancer. Currently it is small and I have an observe and test regime going on. PSA came back at 11 when I had a routine blood test and it has been as high as 16. This is mostly caused by having a huge prostate which is affecting my bladder.
Movember was just a giggle up until this year, it suddenly become a whole lot more relevant to me and the family.
High fives Iain for his robot surgery.

cheers sandwich 🙂 Mine was keyhole but not robotic, as no one does the robot version in central belt of Scotland. First anniversary of operation in 3 weeks and PSA still undetectable, finger crossed.... 🙂

It's surprising how many of us 'young' (relatively speaking) blokes have been diagnosed/treated. At least another couple of forumites that I know of.

Ok this thread has finally pushed me to "come out of the closet" on stw, so to speak. I had intended to keep it quiet.

Diagnosed with it in early summer this year, diagnosis came about solely due to elevated PSA (taken by chance for routine blood test for something completely unconnected (thanks doc)). I had no symptoms whatsoever and it's not in the family. Prostate fully removed by robot in early September, cancer had broken out and consultant told me I was out of time before far more serious issues. Hopefully he has caught it all, now on regular PSA checks to confirm. Back on bike imminently. Next year planning a big ride to prove to others it can be done and raise funds for prostate cancer charity.

Stoatsbrother, I am no doctor but I have to take issue with your comment about PSA being not usefulwithout symptoms. I had none and it quite likely saved my life. I am therefore a strong advocate for the PSA test and can't accept it has little place. Yes the biopsy is unpleasant but set that against detecting this monster.

Ok I've said it now. There are some incredibly kind, helpful selfless people on here who really got me through all this. Cheers, iainc.

stoatsbrother - what do you think of the argument that if you dont have symptoms you should not have PSA test as it often gives false positives that result in nasty follow-up investigations?

I'll chip in..Recent thinking is that more harm than good is achieved on RANDOM testing of SYMPTOMLESS men.

[url= http://www.cancerscreening.nhs.uk/prostate/prostate-patient-info-sheet.pdf ]Print this off and have a read[/url].

If SYMPTOMLESS chaps ask for it, it'll discuss the limitations but won't deny it.

DrP

Wow thanks for all the replies, good luck to the current sufferers you have my best wishes. iainc will tell him about services and speaking to people, will take you up on your kind offer if needed, thanks. My mate lives in the Lake District and his name isnt Mark Bregante.

Thanks again people

Sorry pig face went off on my rant slightly. Will drop you am email through your website if you need advice etc too.

Cheers

I'll chip in. Unfortunately my dad died from it - 5 years between diagnosis and the end 🙁 I had a recurrent Urinary/Kidney infection about 8 years ago and amongst other indicators my PSA counts went through the roof then back to "normal"several times, tests taken after bouts of hard cycling showed increased levels? At the moment I have some urinary dysfunction apparently caused by and enlarged prostate and take Tamulosin Hydrochloride daily - off to the GP next week...the PSA count is "normal". I'd go with the PSA test being potentially misleading unless you are showing other symptoms as well. OP hope your mate has caught it early and recovers 🙂

A friend has an aggressive type, he's been on anti-testosterone drugs for a few years, which completely wiped him out. The diagnosis was terminal when he was first diagnosed, but new treatments keep popping up so his Consultant is slightly less pessimistic about it now, although odds are it will still kill him.

People with strong family history of close relatives with Prostate Ca when young probably do need testing regularly, but we just don't know how often or whether it works.

[b]Edukator[/b] What is done in France is often a good thing to avoid. totally weird medical practice compared with most other countries in Europe.

[b]ononeorange[/b] Sorry. The plural of anecdote is not evidence. The big trials of whether having the test regularly increases lifespan or reduces prostate cancer deaths - which is the crucial thing after all - have been rather ambivalent. Having MRI rather than TRUSS Biopsies as the first line investigation of a raised PSA may change the balance, as investigation of symptomless raised PSA previously has been potentially harmful, painful and missed perhaps 25% of cases...
The main question here is - does diagnosing the cancer [i]before[/i] symptoms develop offer any survival benefit.

No one is saying don't treat prostate cancer in the under 70's, the question is whether looking for it in the Well does more harm than good and uses resources which could be used for cancers where we know pre-symptom detection is worth it - eg Colon.

Well, my "anecdote" is all what happened. If you took that line on PSA testing then I probably wouldn't be around much longer, that is hard to deny and it makes me understandably angry when the medical profession dismisses it. Agreed that the conventional biopsy can miss - my first one came back almost clean, just one area of mild cancer. I demanded a second opinion which came back with sufficient evidence to undergo an almost immediate prostatectomy. So I argue that the PSA testing is less the issue, it's the biopsy.

Fundamentally, if my gp had followed conventional thinking and not tested and then retested PSA in my mid 40's, it would have been undetected. It's me that lives with that.

look at my edit - you simply don't know if you might have developed symptoms 3 months later and had [i]exactly [/i]the same outcome. That's the question.

I had a recurrent Urinary/Kidney infection about 8 years ago and amongst other indicators my PSA counts went through the roof then back to "normal"several times, tests taken after bouts of hard cycling showed increased levels?

I had that, Prostatitis (Klebsiella pneumoniae) was the eventual diagnosis and 6 weeks on Ciprofloxacin (a truly horrible drug) was the eventual cure. Tooks months for my plumbing to return to normal after the infection was killed off...

Well PSA testing worked for IainC. edit: and ononeorange

I have four friends in their fifties who have been diagnosed with prostate cancer and treated (the only common factor in their lifestyle is that they all spend a lot of time on bikes). Two of those were diagnosed with PSA tests when the guys had no idea they had any problem at all let alone cancer, one at a very early stage that was treatable with non-invasive methods including radioactive beads.

French testing isn't "RANDOM", it's regular. Doctors are aware of the limitations of the test, take time to explain its limitations and that a low level doesn't necessarily mean you're clear and a high level doesn't necessarily mean you've got cancer. However, if your level suddenly rises and all other possible causes of the change have been eliminated it's time to investigate further.

My father in law had this and had very good specialist treatment at the Royal Marsden (referred by GP, I think it was Marsden will check). They used golden seed radiotherapy:

It is much more accurate than older therapies. He seems to be in full remission.

[b]Edukator[/b] I didn't say it was [i]random[/i]. But it is not currently evidence based, and testing is potentially harmful. French Drs, by the way prescribe lots of stuff the rest of Europe stopped using 40 years ago. And if you read my post you'd understand that - yes - people may be getting earlier diagnosis - but if that doesn't improve survival and gives more time when people know they have cancer [i]and [/i]increases the risk of harm from pretty unpleasant investigations, it may not be as brilliant as people think. This is why policy is based on research, not anecdote.

Believe me - it would be a hell of a lot easier for those of us at the coal face if PSA based screening [i]did [/i]give better outcomes when compared to proper management when symptoms present.

Early diagnosis alows localised trteatment which is less invasive and is also a life saver as IainC attests.

My friend had this treatment in Bordeaux because he was diagnosed [b]early[/b] enough;

La radiothérapie interne ou curiethérapie (implantation de grains radioactifs dans la prostate). Proposée dans des cas localisés particuliers pour détruire la tumeur en évitant l'irradiation de la vessie et du rectum, elle présente des résultats carcinologiques similaires à ceux de la chirurgie et de la radiothérapie externe.

and again... [b]Edukator[/b] you haven't read it... or understood - living up to your tag 😉

An example:

If a 55 year old bloke either has a) Prostate cancer diagnosed on his 55th Birthday by PSA with no symptoms and lives another 20 years, [i]or[/i] b) has it diagnosed 6 months after his Birthday having developed symptoms, and lives another 19 years and 6 months... the outcome is basically the same - living to age 75 - and providing the surgery didn't need to be more radical you may have given the patient 6 months more stress and also harmed lots of people being screened who did [i]not [/i]have cancer. Yes - the diagnosis is earlier - but that doesn't mean it is "a life saver".

and the treatment your friend had is used increasingly here too...

Ok? 🙂

OK Dr P and Stoat... I understand where you're coming from.

I understand why automatic screening for all would be a mistake due the the vast amount of needless harmful treatment that would be carried out for very little overall benefit.

You're not saying a PSA test won't ever detect cancer. (Which is how it read at first glance.)

For me I'm going to have periodic PSA tests. If they find something I can make a decision about whether to leave it or not at that point. My guess is the younger I am the more likely I'll be to have it treated.

You haven't read DrP's post or you'd have realised he posted "RANDOM"

No, still not "OK" because if my friend hadn't been diagnosed by the PSA test he might not have been diagnosed for years. By which time the cancer would have spread demanding more extensive treatment and the odds him still having an active sex life much lower.

It's not just about how long people live, it's about quality of life. He might still die of a heart attack at 75 it's just that with early diagnosis and treatment of his cancer the heart attack is more likely to happen in bed.

No, still not "OK" because if my friend hadn't been diagnosed by the PSA test he might not have been diagnosed for years.

Indeed - a PSA test would have saved my Father's life. But on average over a large number of people its not proven to be a good idea for the NHS as a whole. (We can all imagine why - the whole resources of the NHS would be committed to performing needless ops on 90yos)

However, individuals can opt to have the test and make our own choices.

I think the NHS have got this right. But yes, the losers are relatively young men who don't show symptoms until they're about to cark it.

[b]Edukator[/b] by Random I'm pretty certain he meant "with no symptoms" and the evidence that regular screening in the French manner works just isn't there.

Also - we simply don't know how screening diagnosed cases would have progressed. I have seen people with PSA diagnosed Prostate Cancer at Gleason 6 or 7 who have shown no progress at all over many years.

An analogous situation is Breast Screening with mammography. We know it does save some lives, nowhere near as many as we hoped, and lots of the cancers picked up are DCIS which actually may not be a problem at all.

Simple conclusions about, 1) I had a test, 2) It diagnosed cancer which wasn't causing symptoms 3) I had treatment which my urologist [i]said[/i] was just in time 4) therefore the blood test saved my life... are premature. This is why there are big studies being done.

[b]OOB[/b] that is a sensible pragmatic approach I think.

Staotsbrother - you are medically trained so know your stuff and most of the rest of us are just punters. Being of one the ones who fit into :

Simple conclusions about, 1) I had a test, 2) It diagnosed cancer which wasn't causing symptoms 3) I had treatment which my urologist said was just in time 4) therefore the blood test saved my life... are premature.

I'll be happy being premature - certainly can't be anymore without a prostate 🙂

I would, in mitigation however, say that I had some mild symptoms of reduced flow, but not much else, PSA around 6 as earlier post, Gleeson 7, and pathology showed a T3A tumour, so it was indeed just in the nick of time....I hope.

Glad it worked out. Damn prostate is about as useful as an appendix. Poor design.. 🙂

Not a wind up (unless said person was pulling my leg). Friend I know had it and he was lucky for it to be treated successfully. He was told as well that regular masturbation was good for 'cleaning out' the system and was one way to help keep prostate cancer at bay...

No personal experience, but a few years ago I went to a talk by Gerd Gigerenzer which touched on this. IIRC he showed convincingly that routine screening in some country/ies had massively improved the survival rate. However the punchline was that it had not changed the death rate appreciably.

The key to understanding this is to note that survival rate is generally measured as survival to eg 5y from diagnosis. If you detect lots of harmless slow-growing cancers that would never cause a serious problem, then you can show a great survival rate, even if you achieve no benefit for those with aggressive cancers that kill.

He was told as well that regular masturbation was good for 'cleaning out' the system and was one way to help keep prostate cancer at bay...

I don't think that it's been mentioned above, but 15% with prostate cancer will have a normal PSA test result. Another proportion of tests will be false positives and taken together may be reasons for repeated PSA tests, but also demonstrate its weakness as a test in isolation

for anyone interested, full of Useful information on this subject.
https://go2.thetruthaboutcancer.com/global-quest/episode-1/

its weakness as a test in isolation

Why would you use it in isolation?

^^^ to be honest I think that's stoatsbrother's whole point, as a front line medical person.

My message as a victim/sufferer/survivor - who knows which one, time alone will tell..... is that if you're getting into your 40's and notice any changes in peeing, reduced flow, more regular need, incl during the night, go and speak with your GP. My experience was that slightly elevated PSA won't trigger any unpleasant extra tests, but trending increases suggest further investigations as a worthwhile step. My initial PSA figs around 5 were put down to regular saddle time, but after 2 increased results my GP suggested a biopsy, largely to put mine, and his, mind at rest. He was as surprised as me when it came back as cancer.

Why would you use it in isolation?

That's why symptoms, family history and if necessary repeated tests and intimate exams are so important

I was 48 when had first PSA and had my prostate removed last November. I will be 50 next year. Consultant reckoned, based on post op pathology, that if it had been found a few yrs later it would have spread....

The 50 yr thing is purely arbitrary

So heres a suggestion if you dont feel quite right, reduced flow of urine, frequent urination etc go see a gp, whos trained for quite a while,has experience of medical ailments etc, or just argue on a bike forum.

The if diagnosed positive, lots of time off work, lots of invasive tests etc and huge stress.

or dont go and see a gp,and wait and see what happens, seeing the stress and suffering my dad went through after being diagnosed, and then he died, im waiting a bit longer before the investigations begin, despite being told by the gp it may be best to get checked out.

Project, I can't imagine the pain you have been through, so can only speak from my own perspective. I am glad I went, got checked, had the unpleasant stuff, had a radical prostatectomy and hopefully got cured. I was off work for 4 weeks, off the bike for 9 weeks. It was, and remains, stressful, but my own opinion is that it was the right thing to do. My youngest child is 9, I want to see him grow up.

The last thing I want to do on this thread is argue. I only came in on it to balance some opinions and I don't really feel like sticking on it to be honest as its going into a bit of a bike forum tit for tat as you say.

My email is in my profile if anyone wants more first hand info.

Ianc, youre definately not arguing,but putting your point of view and treatment accross quite well.

Will respond in email in next few days.

Why would you use it in isolation?

As part of a health assessment offered to men over 50 with health insurance, for example?
That's why symptoms, family history and if necessary repeated tests and intimate exams are so important

A periodic PSA test doesn't prevent consideration of symptoms, family history, repeated tests and intimate exams. In no way is the test you describe "in isolation".

OP's friend and all those here who've commented, best of luck. Interesting the discussion re screening. I've had the finger test pretty much every year since 40 as its a requirement of the company life insurance. Whatever the commentary around the blood tests I'd rather have a false positive than an undetected cancer

as its going into a bit of a bike forum tit for tat

I fear I'm one of the "tit for tatters" so I'll leave this thread now for the good of the thread.

My Father and (non-blood relation) Uncle showed no symptoms at all until they were suffering from aching limbs from the spread to their bones. Needless to say that was long after it could be operated on. People can draw their own conclusions from that snippet of anecdotal quasi-evidence.

For myself, as someone with serious family history of this (all my blood relation uncles) I feel the odd PSA test might help me identify a problem sooner than waiting for symptoms. It also establishes a baseline that might help in a future diagnosis.

It's not perfect, there's the significant chance a cancer could be missed, at the other extreme there's a chance a PSA test could give such a brilliantly early warning that I could end up having a deeply unpleasant operation on a cancer that was never going to kill me. I might die in a car crash on the way for a PSA blood test or might catch pneumonia from someone in the waiting room.

I'm open minded, maybe some evidence will come to light that makes me change my strategy on this, but until then this is my best guess at the best course of action.

@Project

On the testing front, if its watch and wait as a treatment option there is a biopsy once a year and regular PSA testing to trend the level.

The biopsy is done under heavy sedation/general and has a 2 week off-work recommendation

This year I have had 2 biopsies carried out with no time off for the first one.

If your GP recommend investigation, I would advise going ahead now.

Thread resurrection; thought it timely given our news page story :

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/prost-8-riders-aim-high-for-prostate-cancer-uk/ ]up there on the news page[/url]

Me, ononeorange, crewlie, sanny, pistola and a bunch of others are doing this in 4 weeks time to raise awareness of this horrid disease that affects so many of us, either directly or through close friends and families.

Any donations from the stw masses will be hugely welcome and all goes directly to ProstateCancer UK to fund research and early detection.

Cheers

many thanks for all the kind donations folks; I know a few on here have put their hand in their pocket. We have now hit the £2500 fundraising target and are now out to see how far beyond that we can go 🙂

the kit is coming together 🙂

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Dude! Run! There's a huge snake in yer kitchen! 😀

🙂

Note to self - book a bloody test...

My father has lived with this for 16 years - his two friends and next door neighbours were diagnosed at the same time, but sadly passed away some time ago. Over the last couple of year's his PSA has gone up and probably doesn't have a lot of time left 🙁

Rkk01 - get it booked and use it as a follow up Safety Moment to mine the other week ... 🙂

A huge thanks to all who have donated ! Fundraising for our ProstateCancer Cairngorm ride is going great so far !

[url= https://www.justgiving.com/Prost8-Grampians ]here[/url]

And this time next week we will be in the middle of it 🙂

and we made it into the local press 🙂

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