[Closed] Programmers, developers, software engineers

Try a career change?

Do I like it? Yes. I also disagree with most of the rest of your post, too.

move into games (assuming you don't already work in games), the programmers say it's much more interesting/fun than "regular" coding. Though it doesn't change the working environment much though everyone is a little bit cooler and they tend to let their hair a bit more, though those september deadlines are always a bitch.

Can't afford a career change. I'm probably about 10 years too late.

I'd like to hear your count points.

I've been a developer for over 20 years; I had one job which made me feel like you do back in the early 2000's where I felt like I was working a crap job and just making money for the company owner with little reward.

Apart from that one experience I love it - Always enjoy the challenge of new/different environments and learning new tools/languages - rather than always feeling like a novice; you can take what you already know and apply it to either pick things up quickly or shine a new perspective on things.

Maybe it's just not for you; or you need to find somewhere that isn't wherever you are now. Management should be there to support/assist not be a nightmare of red tape and process 😀

Am retired now but worked as a software developer for about 25 years. I enjoyed the actual coding, made loads of good friends and a ton of money, and worked for Standard Life who were a great employer.

However the problem was that coding only made up a small part of the job. Too much of it was dull meetings, reading tedious documents and all the usual office nonsense. Plus much of the coding was updating old code rather than writing nice new stuff which I suspect is the part most developers enjoy.

Since retiring I've taken to mucking around with Python. I can now write code when I like and to do with whatever I like (as opposed to dull financial services topics). Am enjoying coding more than I ever did when actually working.

I love it!

I work pretty much on my own, developing tools / solutions directly for internal / external customers. The best bit is every new problem is unique and needs a unique solution, so endlessly having to think and figure things out, which I really enjoy.

Being in a team of one, there is zero politics and I just do what I want when I want. I have a few Teams meetings each week to discuss progess on projects where I have ongoing involvement. My bosses, over the years, have just left me to get on with it as I don't need managing - not had an appraisel for a good 10 years now!

I also work a four day week....

Before doing development I used to be in management, was VP Engineering in couple of companies - found it pretty vacuous to be honest, much prefer hacking code.....

@TheBrick - what is your role / background / where do you work ?

I mean I'm manangement now, but having done a career change (ie worked outside the field) we don't know how good we got it.

Career change or career break?

Not really. I get bored and the politics are complete bolox. Want to do something more fulfilling but don't know what. Only time it's enjoyable is new stuff but that is rare.

money is better than average earnings but lower than most other high education equivalents

really? we hire new grads on 40k straight out of uni and good, experianced hires are looking at packages double that (south east). I think thats higher than pretty much anything else you can get after 3 years at uni.

Ditto, 40k for a grad, 120 for a Principal Engineer ie no management reponsibilities, (London)

Sounds like you are working somewhere software isn't valued - there are lots of places where it is!

I expect this is like saying "painters, do you like it?" and getting replies from people who paint houses, people who paint artwork, and people who paint on a factory production line...

If you like the actual coding bit but not the rest then it's likely the company that sucks: find a way to pivot into something else. I switched job earlier this year and am really enjoying having less meetings and more autonomy!

I go through phases, but at the moment i'm really not feeling it.

Coding itself is annoying, a lot of the tools are crap, there are unpredictable gotchas all over the place, there is constant churn of things being deprecating in favour of The Next Big Thing(tm), etc etc.

Then there are clients. At the moment I have one timewaster who emails me a question then refuses to read/understand the reply. He'll just reply "I don't understand, can we have a teleconf?" Then we have a teleconf with about 10 people on who aren't relevant, usually some can't get their audio working, etc, everyone introduces themselves which takes about 10 minutes, then all I do is read the exact same ****ing answer that was on the email in the first place. ****

I’d like to hear your count points.

righty-ho:

Office based,

I work at home, work in labs full of toys - this isn't tree surgery out in the outdoors.

structures and management,

found everywhere

sedentary nature

yeah, ok, but see above, this isn't an outdoor job

, every new job is like being a novice again,

you say that like it is a bad thing

part time not really an option,

employer dependent

money is better than average earnings but lower than most other high education equivalents,

which equivalents? that reads a bit like a piece of string type statement

becoming harder and harder to be self employed,

can't answer that I've always been employed

the skill is effectively useless for day to day life.

you can't see how being able to find information and do problem solving is useful for day to day life?

Open competition from countries around the world with cheaper living costs.

True for many, many careers.

I have not found my positions being outsourced or outcompeted, perhaps I am lucky, but I have always wound up in 'engineering' gigs where quality is pushed and not 'coding or developing' type places where speed is pushed.

I think, ultimately, you simply have to like the learning cycle, bartering requirements and functionality with clients, and all that jazz, if you are going to thrive in the field.

YMMV, obviously.

Yep I love it - it's my hobby as well as my job, so I never really feel like I'm working.

I started off back in Uni about 2001. Wrote my first site in Actionscript (Flash) and won a student award from .NET magazine. Finally broke into the industry as a front end developer back in 2006, within a couple of years I was looking after a small team of developers and had learnt PHP (urgh). After that I contracted for years with various companies.

For me the rise of Node is what sealed it for me. I've always loved javascript, even from it's kiddy early days of just making things pop up on the screen and move around. Being able to use one language for full stack was a breakthough in my eyes.

These days I work as a software architect - I'm not really sure I do much architecting, but I do get to make decisions on how we approach our client side applications. And most of my days now are spent working with React and the NPM ecosystem - anything from R&D on a new library, writing unit/integration/e2e tests, Azure build pipelines and anything in between.

What are these jobs with 40 - 120k salaries???

I'm on 50k here for C++, Matlab, Computer Vision stuff, currently learning AI/machine learning stuff.

what is your role / background / where do you work ?

Background, science / engineering / mathematics.

Worked in mathematical modelling, simulation, a little embedded, machine control (most enjoyable and best pay but the level of travel was too much > 50%).

Currently working on a complicated C++ code base. Code is challenging but it's just tweaking stuff.

really? we hire new grads on 40k straight out of uni and good, experianced hires are looking at packages double that (south east). I think thats higher than pretty much anything else you can get after 3 years at uni.

Well that's not what I recognise by a long way!

I'm not a corporate person not into processes and whatnot so never fit into the managements box.

What are these jobs with 40 – 120k salaries???

There are quite a few lead javascript developer roles on the boards in London for ~£600pd.

What are these jobs with 40 – 120k salaries???

Yeah I'm obviously working in the wrong companies!

I do live out in the sticks though, as opposed to Londinium.

There are quite a few lead javascript developer roles on the boards in London for ~£600pd.

Ok, so day rate contracting? Maybe needed clarifying, permie salaries are different for obvious reasons.

Code is challenging but it’s just tweaking stuff.

Whereas I generally get simple(ish) code but many challenges in proving compliance to requirements.

In my current situation I only get into code about 25% of the time but it's the best bit of the job. I am also fortunate that the development is mostly new and fairly cutting edge, which helps. Like most of my age I started in the 80s home computer boom, pretty much right away knew I would be doing it for a living. If I won the lottery I'd code for free tbh.

What are these jobs with 40 – 120k salaries???

We just took on a principal dev (SaaS) for £80k.

I guess City jobs pay more as they'll be London / City weighting, worth another 20% plus.

What are these jobs with 40 – 120k salaries???

I’m on 50k here for C++, Matlab, Computer Vision stuff, currently learning AI/machine learning stuff.

Academia (or related), presumably? Salaries always well under private sector for software.

no i'm in private sector (engineering)

move into games (assuming you don’t already work in games), the programmers say it’s much more interesting/fun than “regular” coding.

Do not move in to games coding unless you really know what you are letting yourself in for, after 10 years making games including the launch titles for XBox Live, XBox 360 and Kinect I jumped ship to "normal" programming (Aviation Weather) and spend my time jumping between C++, C# and web UI work. Games was great when I was younger but there are few old games coders, the hours are long and overtime unpaid, there's always a ready stream of keen young coders which keeps pay down and at the end of the day you'll mostly be hacking unreal engine around.

"structures and management,"

found everywhere

I'm not sure maybe it because I am comparing it to mates who work as plumbers and carpenters. They work hard but for them self. Have to deal with awkward customers but are largly there own boss.

"every new job is like being a novice again,"

you say that like it is a bad thing

I do like learning new things but it gets abit rediculouse. Half the time its stuff that already exists and you're learning new vocabulary for stuff that's been used for decades.

"money is better than average earnings but lower than most other high education equivalents,"

which equivalents? that reads a bit like a piece of string type statement

Legal professionals , teachers (my partner is a part time teacher and makes the same as me) but gets good holidays, good pension etc.

"the skill is effectively useless for day to day life."

you can’t see how being able to find information and do problem solving is useful for day to day life?

Problem solving is more who you are than your job. Programming doesn't build a wall.

"Open competition from countries around the world with cheaper living costs."

True for many, many careers.

and many aren't teachers, legal eagles, trade (I know someone will talk about Europe here but its not the same difference as people from India. For reference worked with plenty of Indian guys and girls and they have been the same mix of abilities as any UK based person but management will always prefer the cheap of two equal costing workers)

I used to write games....

http://bbcmicro.co.uk/game.php?id=1104

OK, I was 14, but it still lives on in a BBC Micro Emulator!

Is now a good time to mention that my employer (Arm) is hiring? Covid has meant that full-time remote is a possibility and there's offices dotted across the country.

permie, private sector, fintech, 25 day hols, 20 days sick, equity and pension...but its not just finance here's one in the energy sector:

https://stackoverflow.com/jobs/435310/principal-software-engineer-bulb-energy

You can usually add 10k to whatever the job adverts say.

There are lots of problems with careers in software (agism, sexism, burnout) but pay ain't one.

I’m not sure maybe it because I am comparing it to mates who work as plumbers and carpenters.

I always say that if I did it again, I'd be some sort of tradesperson. Compensation always looks compelling for the level of skill/stress.

Legal professionals , teachers (my partner is a part time teacher and makes the same as me) but gets good holidays, good pension etc.

Teachers? Really? Unless you're pretty high up the pecking order, teaching has never seemed that well paid. For equivalent levels, I'd have thought IT would have come up on top every time.

There are loads of professions that do pay better than IT, but, there are loads that pay less, too.

Teachers? Really?

Yep. Wasn't clear in that post I mean prorata, i.e. if she was full time she would be on the same. Its true that teachers are not regarded as well payed but programmers are. I think its the headlines of programmers who work in the city or are working on the latest trendy web frameworks (see adverts above). If you're outside these two niches programming pay is very average IME.

Legal professions have more barriers to entry, it's a protected job title, effectively limiting the supply of labour. You have to get trained up by an existing lawyer. There's a LOT of mundane work too. Watch Better Call Saul!

Anyone can sell themselves as a programmer.

My OH was a teacher, sounded like a nightmare. Responsible for setting the goals, teaching, and marking for 300 kids, whilst still dealing with all the meetings and stuff. It definitely isn't an easier better paid job than being a programmer.

Management structures tend to come with larger companies IMO. Maybe try a smaller one, a startup or try and go contracting??

I was about to post some positive things about my job until I read this:

40k for a grad, 120 for a Principal Engineer ie no management reponsibilities

Shit the bed!

Being an actual dev is good or bad depending on the project. Actual coding is great, if it's a fun challenge. And it should be - there's no excuse for having any donkey work in your app these days - it should all have been done for you by someone else - so you should be free to focus on designing and optimising the solution.

I then moved to software services for a big company which was about half dev. The dev part isn't interesting but moving between clients and being seen as the expert (mostly) is actually pretty rewarding. For me, the constant change and the travel is a life saver.

Now I have a global role guiding clients in their projects or sorting out crit sits. It means a lot of product knowledge and even less dev (but still some), but the challenge is brilliant.

So if you want to stay a techie and have an exciting job, they are out there. But I'm not on £120k so maybe I should go back to development!

Also - development can be menial or very very difficult and requiring top notch skills - the problem is that not many organisations know the difference.

All that stuff you can't stand is just normal working life that's slowly ebbing it's way across ALL jobs.

It use to be that the majority of jobs didn't need to get involved in it, but over my +35 years I've just seen it spread, so now even low-level blue collar roles have to 'suffer' it.

It's like our quarterly appraisal system, they are most insistent that I must have career expectations - so for the past couple of years I've just put down "early retirement".

My OH was a teacher,

Mine too. Not saying its easier but same pay with better perks. Not for me as I am not good with kids but my point is the comparison in terms of money and perks.

v try and go contracting

IR35 seems to have killed that boat unless you are happy living in a hotel room, very few companies want the risk. I've done enough of that with old jobs. Went around a load of agencies over the last years and my requirement was that I would work anywhere but would not go and sit on site every day. Happy to come in a few days a week if within 2hrs. Once a week if its 4-hrs. Or do a Week on site a week or so from home. I just wasn't going to live in a hotel room or commute mega miles everyday. Or even two weeks onsite including weekends then time working from home. None of this was acceptable.

I'll be honest; sounds like you are suffering from burnout / under valuation a bit.

I definitely earn more than I would as a teacher (I did consider it as a career at one point) - and 35 days holiday + mostly WFH. In terms of "being your own boss" - I think most good employers allow you to find a role that suits you; but unless your freelancing / working on small projects than most dev roles are very much collaborative affairs. I lead a small team (Me; 3 devs + test engineer) - but we're one of 3/4 teams on the product.

I used to write games….

http://bbcmicro.co.uk/game.php?id=1104

OK, I was 14, but it still lives on in a BBC Micro Emulator!

I've been doing it for 25 years now, I think I agree with pretty much all of the above (the pluses and the minuses), I love learning new stuff every few years, it's almost always from scratch each time, but if you learn the basic concepts behind things instead of by rote, it get's easier and quicker each time, and you soon realise that most of the time, it's just a new term for something that already exists but maybe with a twist.

The main issue with the job is the attitude of other people in the business, the amount of times you get forced to build something that you know isn't going to work by someone 'higher' up because they think they know better one way or another is ridiculous, that and being forced to cut corners that will cost later. It's a basic lack of respect for the profession, I don't work on the IT helpdesk (no disrespect to those guys, they live in a whole other world of pain), I don't 'just switch things on and off again all day' and saying it to my face isn't funny, it's insulting. I'm not suggesting it's a bad idea just to be awkward, I've been here a hundred times before. Far too many people think the IT crowd is real.

I think its the headlines of programmers who work in the city or are working on the latest trendy web frameworks (see adverts above). If you’re outside these two niches programming pay is very average IME.

If the salary bothers you, then, learn the trendy frameworks?

All that stuff you can’t stand is just normal working life that’s slowly ebbing it’s way across ALL jobs.

You're probably correct. The people that like the bullshit are the people in charge of it so its autogenerating bullshit machine.

It’s a basic lack of respect for the profession

That's the biggest problem, imo.

If the salary bothers you, then, learn the trendy frameworks?

I started learning VUE last years as it finally appears that web development has its act together with SPA. Just not for me. More about the knowing the framework IMO. Fundamentals are the interesting bits for me.

Can’t believe we used to get games/apps by literally typing them in from magazine pages,

Glad someone did type mine in, I don't have anything from that era myself and only found that by accident!

Last month I also had a J R Heartly moment and found a book a co-authored back then and managed to buy a copy!

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50583126992_9f0f40271b_4k.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50583126992_9f0f40271b_4k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2k4RKnb ]30 Hour Basic IBM Edition[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

First time I'd ever seen a copy (back then I was just interested in taking the cash, getting pissed and chasing girls down the pub).

I’ll be honest; sounds like you are suffering from burnout / under valuation a bit.

Probably, I've spent most of my career generally either bored and patronised or being expected to work miracles. I will admit I am rubbish the the entire career thing as I disengage when pissed off.

I really need to quit but need to jump to something. I actually have lots of personal programming project to finish / start but can't handle doing coding in my free time when sat in front of a computer from 07:30-17:00 everyday.

^^That's pretty cool!

I started learning VUE last years as it finally appears that web development has its act together with SPA. Just not for me. More about the knowing the framework IMO. Fundamentals are the interesting bits for me.

It's kinda weird to complain that teaching/lawyering is better paid, and then be unwilling to do the "knowing the framework" thing.

sat in front of a computer from 07:30-17:00 everyday.

Maybe that's the problem ? I work pretty strictly 9-5; anything outside that is overtime. I learned a *long* time ago that some companies take the biscuit in terms of being visible in the office for ridiculous hours; I've been so much happier since I learned to stick to the hours I was paid for (and make sure I didn't stay at companies where 2-3 hours a day extra was "the norm")

Of course; sometimes I get my teeth into a really interesting problem and end up sticking with it till late after work; but that's my choice and usually reward such endeavours with a long lunch with a ride the following day 😀

25 years software eng, specialising in embedded / real time / safety critical stuff (currently doing radiotherapy control systems) as a full time employee that gets contracted out to other companies (effectively a contractor without the personal risk or hassles).

Plus points:
- I work 36 hours, four days a week.
- I work (on my own) from a nice serviced private office with bike lockers, showers, kitchen etc that is an easy 20-25 minute cycle away.
- I can easily work from home when needed (and have done since March!)
- Flexi-time with core hours.
- I enjoy the actual programming and problem solving parts.
- There are always new things to learn.
- Pay isn't bad (my particular career choices mean I am only on ~£39k, 😯 but really I'm fine with that, I'm in the North East, not London, living is cheap here... and my missus is well paid 😀)

Negatives:
- endless meetings, especially during lockdown where people are not used to remote working (Tip: get involved. Meetings are much less boring if you engage)
- documentation. Nothing worse than writing documents you know no one will ever read, just because the safety guys/auditors need them.
- politics, though one of the advantages of being in my type of job is that you are slightly apart from all that and can call it out. Also politics is a factor in most office jobs.
- loneliness is the biggest drawback for me. My solitary work situation means I rarely see other people.

It’s kinda weird to complain that teaching/lawyering is better paid, and then be unwilling to do the “knowing the framework” thing.

Not really, I'm happy to learn stuff do all the time but not interested in the framework bullshit bingo. By that I mean just doing framework. Its an interest thing. Front end stuff especially is not my thing. I'll do a bit when needed but its not the meat for me. Low level fundamentals, controlling things.

25 years software eng, specialising in embedded / real time / safety critical stuff

Fell out with one of my few private clients over something to do with this. #1. That didn't think their trained operatives made mistakes so no extra protection. #2. Resolution wasn't important on their sensors. Sensors that measure gases that kill the operative. Unbelievable

Not really, I’m happy to learn stuff do all the time but not interested in the framework bullshit bingo. By that I mean just doing framework. Its an interest thing. Front end stuff especially is not my thing. I’ll do a bit when needed but its not the meat for me. Low level fundamentals, controlling things.

I completely get that, but if you could be paid more, but choose not to, then it's odd to compare it to salaries of other professions, where presumably, for the headline salaries, people have had to make compromises for their interests.

It’s a basic lack of respect for the profession

This. I've gone on about this many times, but it's a massive problem in IT. Managers think it's their job to make techies do what their bosses want. But all management tiers should work together. Neither end of the chain has all the answers, and this means they need to work together. If a techie complains, they're not just whining nerds, they generally have a point and as a manger you need to understand what the issue is.

– documentation. Nothing worse than writing documents you know no one will ever read, just because the safety guys/auditors need them.

I find writing manuals quite theraputic (a bit like doing the washing up).

I also think it's really useful for UI design as when you document what you think is a good work flow you often realise it isn't half as intuitive as you thought when you try and explain it.

However, I've never worked with another engineer who likes writing documentation, in a previous role I just wrote all the product manuals as no one else was going to do them and they needed doing - churned out 100s of pages of documentation when it wasn't even my job.

I've made loads of compromises! Its pretty much what I do all the time. Just taking a couple years to move to front end development via initial pay cut and going back to being jrn again seems like a crap career route. This is one of the issue with software for me. Its constant taking a step back for a year or so to move forward. Just as you get going and experienced you have to move backwards.

@Aidy it's not quite the same though, chasing frameworks for salary is both high risk and short term, as there are so many to choose from and their shelf life can be so short. You can easily end up stuck in a job where you are the goto guy for that framework, so they won't let you take time to learn new skills, no one else want's those skills cos the framework is old, and you are getting progressively left behind, at which point, you are ripe for redundancy especially if some new guy comes along promising to build something better in the framework du jour, for less than thye are paying you. In most other professions learning a niche skill will pay you more, but more importantly not expire so fast (thouguh I'm sure there are exceptions).

That didn’t think their trained operatives made mistakes so no extra protection.

Wasn't Boeing by any chance 😉

Nothing worse than writing documents you know no one will ever read, just because the safety guys/auditors need them

so at least the safety guys and auditors have read them if not the end customer, and the end customer is usually very interested in you having done the due diligence to produce them in the first place, and, being brutally honest, if you don't write the docs and pick up the mistakes in them, then those same mistakes will still be in your software making it fail in interesting and unpredictable ways.

learn to love the process, or at least enough to roll with it 😉

(thouguh I’m sure there are exceptions).

Cobol being one example!

it’s not quite the same though, chasing frameworks for salary is both high risk and short term, as there are so many to choose from and their shelf life can be so short.

Yeah, that's a fair point. Staying current is part of the job. Other professions don't change as fast.

I don't think it's necessarily high risk - you can normally transfer concepts across okay, but it's certainly a different learning curve to elsewhere.

OMG i hate the documentation. Software IS documentation. It's an unambiguous list of instructions.

You can't document it in an unambiguous document without it being as long and complex as the code itself, otherwise why not just use that document as the source code. i.e code generation.

(training, and documenting rationale behind design decisions is different though)

Just taking a couple years to move to front end development via initial pay cut and going back to being jrn again seems like a crap career route. This is one of the issue with software for me. Its constant taking a step back for a year or so to move forward. Just as you get going and experienced you have to move backwards.

I think it depends how you do it - normally experience counts for some.

I've always reckoned that seniority is less about the skill in a particular language/framework/application and more about structure, best practices, management (not necessarily of people), documentation, and all the other corollary skills that come with experience.

Probably right. I'm just a Debby downer. I love working but hate the entire structure and work environment of every "official" job I have had. Not built for the normal word. Need an exit from it all.

Just retired. Best thing I did was ...
* Work in software companies so what I did was taken seriously
* Work in good companies with sane management and decent human beings for colleagues (a bit of luck to start with but *then* you know what to look for...)
* Do the stuff I enjoy and find interesting, that's worthwhile but!!! **other people don't fancy**. Ended up specializing in 4th line support and maintenance and low level stuff - I liked the variety (short - ish - problems, customers doing all manner of odd things) and getting to do detective work with logs etc rather than write test suites in python (worthwhile but not my thang).

@TheBrick
Fell out with one of my few private clients over something to do with this.

I've previously fallen out over the need for unit testing. On a system that is delivering radiation to people. (Will say no more than that!)

@footflaps
I find writing manuals quite theraputic (a bit like doing the washing up).

Never had to write user manuals - there are Tech Docs people for that.
I'm talking development docs: detailed design, risk control measures, safety analysis, SOUP, Build and Make plan etc etc. All deathly dull and write-only stuff. No one ever reads them.

@mrmonkfinger
so at least the safety guys and auditors have read them

Safety guys have input when they are written and then the document gets shelved and never looked at again.

My experience of auditors is that they pretty much just weigh the documentation to make sure there is enough.

A typical audit goes:
"Okay so do you have a RCM list for this?",
"Yes *click click* here, do you want to read it?"
"No, that's okay. Do you have a SOUP study for this?" etc etc

Occasionally you'll get an auditor who will pick one document as a random sample to examine. Presumably just to make sure they are not all Lorem Ipsum.

Basically it's all just about arse-covering.

@TheBrick
Not built for the normal word. Need an exit from it all.

That does sound like you need a change of direction mate, whether in work, life or whatever.

Maybe a sabbatical?

I’ve previously fallen out over the need for unit testing.

Context though. In your line of work probably very important, but when you get people insisting you spend 2/3 of your time writing unit tests for noddy code that's going to get full e2e tested anyway with a comprehensive set of scenarios, you've got a different problem.

I hate writing documentation and because I'm a developer - all my doco is full of 'if/then/else/while' statements and bullet points. Nice and brief I say.

I love cutting code. However the most enjoyable aspect of my job is solution design and troubleshooting - something that brings together all your skills.

I love working in software development, and will happily while away an hour or two on a weekend programming. The management stuff can indeed be bullshit, but fortunately there does seem to be a growing awareness that not all programmers want to become managers, and I'm starting to see a parallel career path that recognises experience and ability in a technical role. I realise I'm never going to earn the same as a company director, but then again I'm not answering emails on a Sunday...
I will admit my current project isn't ideal, but for once the problem is the technology (Appian: yuk!) and not the management or the team I'm working with. If I could have the same colleagues, the same product owner, the same agile methodology, but just using a proper programming language I think I'd be in heaven 🙂

Problem solving is more who you are than your job. Programming doesn’t build a wall.

I don't think I've ever had to build a wall. And knowing how to build a wall won't help much when you want a batch file that will automatically rename your thousands of photos using EXIF data. Something I have ended up doing!

I'm an occasional coder. I really enjoy being exactly that, an occasional coder. It's a fun challenge when it's new and fresh, but I've done it previously as a day job and maybe 80% of the time it's just deathly boring.

A colleague messaged me last week asking for a hand with some code he'd been struggling with for two days, trying to form some custom queries in something similar to but not quite SQL that neither of us had seen before. I scratched my head for 20 minutes, worked it out, fixed it and then gave it him back. I love stuff like that, but if I never have to touch it again I'll be happy.

It’s a basic lack of respect for the profession, I don’t work on the IT helpdesk

As Molgrips said, it's a problem endemic within most IT-related vocations. I've always said, if you have a good IT department then no-one notices, if you have a bad one then everyone notices.

I think part of the problem perhaps is that geeks often either underestimate the value of their skills or are bad at putting themselves forward. I've lost count of the number of PCs I've repaired over the years for my mum's hairdresser's cousin's dog groomer and then replied oh, it's OK when asked how much I want paying. In my head I enjoy it, it's good practice for me and I'm doing someone a favour should I ever want my dog grooming (I don't have a dog). But it devalues the profession. If a plumber "only" charged you mate's rates you'd think they'd done you a favour.

Forty grand for a graduate? 😲 I've been in this game for nearly 30 years and I'm not earning that much.

The Brick, some observations:

- you don't like processes
- you don't like long hours doing mundane work with lots of stuff that doesn't seem about the clever stuff you are an expert in
- you think that it would be better if you could just work for yourself

You think you are paid poorly compared to teaching and legal stuff. You can retrain as a teacher quite quickly and there is a shortage of computing teachers so you'd find it fairly easy to get work. BUT there's a huge amount of formal process and drudge work rather than just imparting knowledge or working with the kid who really doesn't get it to show them a different way of thinking.

Getting a decent salary as a lawyer takes a lot of time, "graduates" are often on less than minimum wage if their real hours were taken into account. Most are not doing anything exciting or challenging and have huge amounts of dull formal process to follow. There will be plenty of layers saying I could be earning double if I did software instead (interestingly a friend who is a contract lawyer says its a lot like software dev - you mostly cut n past clauses form other things then spend the time fixing the fact the definitions or clauses don't work well together or someone wants a little change here or there - rarely does he start with a blank template)

You also compared yourself to plumbers and joiners. Whilst theres all sort of different plumbers and joiners getting paid all sort of different rates with different levels of hassle to live with; the self employed ones who seem to be getting good money also need to be: sales person, marketing department, credit controller, project estimator, etc. And if they are any good at it its probably because they've got some mundane process for the bits they don't enjoy doing.

If you really want to go self employed (and I mean working for yourself not long term contracting which is just pretending to be self employed) then there is software work around. In fact I'd have thought for embedded stuff (although its not my area) it would lend itself well to this. I've used a couple of one man bands to do all sorts of stuff like creating prototypes, setting up Dev Ops processes, introducing automation etc. Discrete projects which, importantly are paid on deliverables (like a kitchen or heating system being installed) rather than an hourly rate. If you can give certainty on cost you will be in demand (and helps a lot with IR35 too). However - they will want documentation, and they will want an attractive, easy user interface. The ones I've worked with have pretty much got jobs by word of mouth but you'll need a really solid reputation for ability to deliver to do that, and a set of interpersonal skills which are often lacking in the software industry so that when someone calls you looking for a quote you don't scare them away!

I had someone read my documentation once - it was me.

I wrote a 'oh-s*it' recovery document for a process owner. They didn't fully understand it so they flew me into town - put me in a s****y hotel for the night and the next day I had to present it. Unknown to me there ended up being 10+ people in the room - the Project Sponsor, the PM, a client manager, various subject matter experts blah... I'm not a showman, but I am a complete arse so all I did was read it cove to cover - word for word.

Then, I did a roll play:
'Jane from the warehouse calls up. She says the batch is stuck in the system.... ' Now - what do you do?
Blah blah blah - all scrambling 'Is the answer read page 14 item 3 of the recovery document?'
Yes.

Management love it - they wanted my physical copy and the A4 pad I was doodling on.

What a weird experience - and probably the one read out of the hundreds of documents I've written.

My experience of auditors is that they pretty much just weigh the documentation to make sure there is enough.

Whereas my experience of auditors is that they will pick features and drill through the entire documentation and test set to make sure you have done the work at all levels (I'm 178B/C in aviation land). My last audit was a full week of 9-5 with the auditor. We had actions to complete coming out of that week, minor stuff, before they signed off the software as ready.

Getting audited in that way changes your perspective a little.

Or, you could try metrics on yourself to see what your average error rates are both with and without the full doc/test set. Also eye opening.

Software IS documentation. It’s an unambiguous list of instructions

I'm not sure how to phrase this inoffensively, but you really could not be more wrong. I mean, just for one example, your software will likely have loops of some sort, and that structure is one step up from the instructions themselves, as is the (e.g.) function that contains the loops. And before you say, yes, but that's all in the code as well, the end system features that the loops support or the function is used in or the module is designed for, that will be non-obvious from the code, and if you can't come at that from top down via system requirements and design from interface right down to code level, then your documentation does not tell anyone what they need to approach the thing from the p.o.v. of someone outside the code authoring loop.

In otherwords, no, software is not documentation. Don't misquote the agile manifesto.

I've just retired after 35 years in software development, although it's a few years now since I wrote any production code. When I left school, I actually started training in law - did a year at the College of Law in Guildford, then started as an articled clerk. I can safely say that software was a massively more entertaining and varied career than law was ever likely to be, and also by the time I retired I was earning rather more than the average solicitor.
As a few have (almost) pointed out, it seems that the OP is making choices that would be sub optimal in almost any work context, not just software. Attitude is worth a lot at work - when I was recruiting I gave it rather more weight than any specific technical experience. A sabbatical might help, but be careful - I don't think I ever saw someone who took a sabbatical and didn't end up leaving their job altogether within a few months of returning. Not that that is a bad thing - it probably means that the break enabled them to be clearer about what they wanted from life - and work.

I’m not sure how to phrase this inoffensively, but you really could not be more wrong.

That's putting it mildly. I've seen countless examples of code that is almost impossible to understand, or would take so long to decipher it would be easier to write something new from scratch. Also trying to update to fix code that is badly written can result in making things worse, if you aren't sure how it works in the first place. Badly written, or out of date, documentation can be just as bad mind you.

Oh and in case anyone I used to work with is reading this, yes I probably wrote plenty examples of said bad code.

if you have a bad one then everyone notices.

Sometimes. Some people just shrug their shoulders and think it's normal that software systems have to be fully replaced every five years cos the old ones are rubbish.

I can recommend games, lots of problem solving and interesting projects...i seem to enjoy so much so i end up doing stuff in my spare time too.

heres my latest project...if you like arcade shooters
Twin Ruin - arcade shooter steam page

it can be a bit full on at times, and does require a bit of a passion for games, but the work is always interesting.

– you don’t like processes

Correct

– you don’t like long hours doing mundane work with lots of stuff that doesn’t seem about the clever stuff you are an expert in

Ish, no one like boring work but I am easily bored but I have done lot and lots of boring stuff and continue to. I currently work medium hours (07:30-1700) but previous jobs have done some lots of real long hours so I think its fair to say I don't like it but not fair to say I don't or haven't done it.

– you think that it would be better if you could just work for yourself

I used to be 1000% like this but not so sure now. I m so demotivated.

You think you are paid poorly compared to teaching and legal stuff. You can retrain as a teacher quite quickly and there is a shortage of computing teachers so you’d find it fairly easy to get work. BUT there’s a huge amount of formal process and drudge work rather than just imparting knowledge or working with the kid who really doesn’t get it to show them a different way of thinking.

Sorry wrong impression I must have given. More that there is a good route without the constant stepping backwards.

If you really want to go self employed (and I mean working for yourself not long term contracting which is just pretending to be self employed) then there is software work around. In fact I’d have thought for embedded stuff (although its not my area) it would lend itself well to this. I’ve used a couple of one man bands to do all sorts of stuff like creating prototypes, setting up Dev Ops processes, introducing automation etc. Discrete projects which, importantly are paid on deliverables (like a kitchen or heating system being installed) rather than an hourly rate.

If you can give certainty on cost you will be in demand (and helps a lot with IR35 too). However – they will want documentation, and they will want an attractive, easy user interface. The ones I’ve worked with have pretty much got jobs by word of mouth but you’ll need a really solid reputation for ability to deliver to do that, and a set of interpersonal skills which are often lacking in the software industry so that when someone calls you looking for a quote you don’t scare them away!

I get what you're saying regarding fixed quotes but of the people I know who have work self employed (properly as well defiantly outside IR35) they have all said they refuse fixed price work. The risk is too massive with stretching specs, unknowns etc.

That’s putting it mildly. I’ve seen countless examples of code that is almost impossible to understand

But that's not a fault of code. It's a fault of bad code.

To an extent, code should be self-documenting. Any arcane magic you come up with that wouldn't be immediately understandable to another competent programmer, well, I cannot offhand think of any high-level language that doesn't support comments.

The operative word there of course is "should." (-:

heres my latest project…if you like arcade shooters

That looks fun. Did Geometry Wars and Ikaruga have a baby?