^^That's pretty cool!
I started learning VUE last years as it finally appears that web development has its act together with SPA. Just not for me. More about the knowing the framework IMO. Fundamentals are the interesting bits for me.
It's kinda weird to complain that teaching/lawyering is better paid, and then be unwilling to do the "knowing the framework" thing.
sat in front of a computer from 07:30-17:00 everyday.
Maybe that's the problem ? I work pretty strictly 9-5; anything outside that is overtime. I learned a *long* time ago that some companies take the biscuit in terms of being visible in the office for ridiculous hours; I've been so much happier since I learned to stick to the hours I was paid for (and make sure I didn't stay at companies where 2-3 hours a day extra was "the norm")
Of course; sometimes I get my teeth into a really interesting problem and end up sticking with it till late after work; but that's my choice and usually reward such endeavours with a long lunch with a ride the following day 😀
25 years software eng, specialising in embedded / real time / safety critical stuff (currently doing radiotherapy control systems) as a full time employee that gets contracted out to other companies (effectively a contractor without the personal risk or hassles).
Plus points:
- I work 36 hours, four days a week.
- I work (on my own) from a nice serviced private office with bike lockers, showers, kitchen etc that is an easy 20-25 minute cycle away.
- I can easily work from home when needed (and have done since March!)
- Flexi-time with core hours.
- I enjoy the actual programming and problem solving parts.
- There are always new things to learn.
- Pay isn't bad (my particular career choices mean I am only on ~£39k, 😯 but really I'm fine with that, I'm in the North East, not London, living is cheap here... and my missus is well paid 😀)
Negatives:
- endless meetings, especially during lockdown where people are not used to remote working (Tip: get involved. Meetings are much less boring if you engage)
- documentation. Nothing worse than writing documents you know no one will ever read, just because the safety guys/auditors need them.
- politics, though one of the advantages of being in my type of job is that you are slightly apart from all that and can call it out. Also politics is a factor in most office jobs.
- loneliness is the biggest drawback for me. My solitary work situation means I rarely see other people.
It’s kinda weird to complain that teaching/lawyering is better paid, and then be unwilling to do the “knowing the framework” thing.
Not really, I'm happy to learn stuff do all the time but not interested in the framework bullshit bingo. By that I mean just doing framework. Its an interest thing. Front end stuff especially is not my thing. I'll do a bit when needed but its not the meat for me. Low level fundamentals, controlling things.
25 years software eng, specialising in embedded / real time / safety critical stuff
Fell out with one of my few private clients over something to do with this. #1. That didn't think their trained operatives made mistakes so no extra protection. #2. Resolution wasn't important on their sensors. Sensors that measure gases that kill the operative. Unbelievable
Not really, I’m happy to learn stuff do all the time but not interested in the framework bullshit bingo. By that I mean just doing framework. Its an interest thing. Front end stuff especially is not my thing. I’ll do a bit when needed but its not the meat for me. Low level fundamentals, controlling things.
I completely get that, but if you could be paid more, but choose not to, then it's odd to compare it to salaries of other professions, where presumably, for the headline salaries, people have had to make compromises for their interests.
It’s a basic lack of respect for the profession
This. I've gone on about this many times, but it's a massive problem in IT. Managers think it's their job to make techies do what their bosses want. But all management tiers should work together. Neither end of the chain has all the answers, and this means they need to work together. If a techie complains, they're not just whining nerds, they generally have a point and as a manger you need to understand what the issue is.
– documentation. Nothing worse than writing documents you know no one will ever read, just because the safety guys/auditors need them.
I find writing manuals quite theraputic (a bit like doing the washing up).
I also think it's really useful for UI design as when you document what you think is a good work flow you often realise it isn't half as intuitive as you thought when you try and explain it.
However, I've never worked with another engineer who likes writing documentation, in a previous role I just wrote all the product manuals as no one else was going to do them and they needed doing - churned out 100s of pages of documentation when it wasn't even my job.
I've made loads of compromises! Its pretty much what I do all the time. Just taking a couple years to move to front end development via initial pay cut and going back to being jrn again seems like a crap career route. This is one of the issue with software for me. Its constant taking a step back for a year or so to move forward. Just as you get going and experienced you have to move backwards.
@Aidy it's not quite the same though, chasing frameworks for salary is both high risk and short term, as there are so many to choose from and their shelf life can be so short. You can easily end up stuck in a job where you are the goto guy for that framework, so they won't let you take time to learn new skills, no one else want's those skills cos the framework is old, and you are getting progressively left behind, at which point, you are ripe for redundancy especially if some new guy comes along promising to build something better in the framework du jour, for less than thye are paying you. In most other professions learning a niche skill will pay you more, but more importantly not expire so fast (thouguh I'm sure there are exceptions).
That didn’t think their trained operatives made mistakes so no extra protection.
Wasn't Boeing by any chance 😉
Nothing worse than writing documents you know no one will ever read, just because the safety guys/auditors need them
so at least the safety guys and auditors have read them if not the end customer, and the end customer is usually very interested in you having done the due diligence to produce them in the first place, and, being brutally honest, if you don't write the docs and pick up the mistakes in them, then those same mistakes will still be in your software making it fail in interesting and unpredictable ways.
learn to love the process, or at least enough to roll with it 😉
(thouguh I’m sure there are exceptions).
Cobol being one example!
it’s not quite the same though, chasing frameworks for salary is both high risk and short term, as there are so many to choose from and their shelf life can be so short.
Yeah, that's a fair point. Staying current is part of the job. Other professions don't change as fast.
I don't think it's necessarily high risk - you can normally transfer concepts across okay, but it's certainly a different learning curve to elsewhere.
OMG i hate the documentation. Software IS documentation. It's an unambiguous list of instructions.
You can't document it in an unambiguous document without it being as long and complex as the code itself, otherwise why not just use that document as the source code. i.e code generation.
(training, and documenting rationale behind design decisions is different though)
Just taking a couple years to move to front end development via initial pay cut and going back to being jrn again seems like a crap career route. This is one of the issue with software for me. Its constant taking a step back for a year or so to move forward. Just as you get going and experienced you have to move backwards.
I think it depends how you do it - normally experience counts for some.
I've always reckoned that seniority is less about the skill in a particular language/framework/application and more about structure, best practices, management (not necessarily of people), documentation, and all the other corollary skills that come with experience.
Probably right. I'm just a Debby downer. I love working but hate the entire structure and work environment of every "official" job I have had. Not built for the normal word. Need an exit from it all.
Just retired. Best thing I did was ...
* Work in software companies so what I did was taken seriously
* Work in good companies with sane management and decent human beings for colleagues (a bit of luck to start with but *then* you know what to look for...)
* Do the stuff I enjoy and find interesting, that's worthwhile but!!! **other people don't fancy**. Ended up specializing in 4th line support and maintenance and low level stuff - I liked the variety (short - ish - problems, customers doing all manner of odd things) and getting to do detective work with logs etc rather than write test suites in python (worthwhile but not my thang).
@TheBrick
Fell out with one of my few private clients over something to do with this.
I've previously fallen out over the need for unit testing. On a system that is delivering radiation to people. (Will say no more than that!)
@footflaps
I find writing manuals quite theraputic (a bit like doing the washing up).
Never had to write user manuals - there are Tech Docs people for that.
I'm talking development docs: detailed design, risk control measures, safety analysis, SOUP, Build and Make plan etc etc. All deathly dull and write-only stuff. No one ever reads them.
@mrmonkfinger
so at least the safety guys and auditors have read them
Safety guys have input when they are written and then the document gets shelved and never looked at again.
My experience of auditors is that they pretty much just weigh the documentation to make sure there is enough.
A typical audit goes:
"Okay so do you have a RCM list for this?",
"Yes *click click* here, do you want to read it?"
"No, that's okay. Do you have a SOUP study for this?" etc etc
Occasionally you'll get an auditor who will pick one document as a random sample to examine. Presumably just to make sure they are not all Lorem Ipsum.
Basically it's all just about arse-covering.
@TheBrick
Not built for the normal word. Need an exit from it all.
That does sound like you need a change of direction mate, whether in work, life or whatever.
Maybe a sabbatical?
I’ve previously fallen out over the need for unit testing.
Context though. In your line of work probably very important, but when you get people insisting you spend 2/3 of your time writing unit tests for noddy code that's going to get full e2e tested anyway with a comprehensive set of scenarios, you've got a different problem.
I hate writing documentation and because I'm a developer - all my doco is full of 'if/then/else/while' statements and bullet points. Nice and brief I say.
I love cutting code. However the most enjoyable aspect of my job is solution design and troubleshooting - something that brings together all your skills.
I love working in software development, and will happily while away an hour or two on a weekend programming. The management stuff can indeed be bullshit, but fortunately there does seem to be a growing awareness that not all programmers want to become managers, and I'm starting to see a parallel career path that recognises experience and ability in a technical role. I realise I'm never going to earn the same as a company director, but then again I'm not answering emails on a Sunday...
I will admit my current project isn't ideal, but for once the problem is the technology (Appian: yuk!) and not the management or the team I'm working with. If I could have the same colleagues, the same product owner, the same agile methodology, but just using a proper programming language I think I'd be in heaven 🙂
Problem solving is more who you are than your job. Programming doesn’t build a wall.
I don't think I've ever had to build a wall. And knowing how to build a wall won't help much when you want a batch file that will automatically rename your thousands of photos using EXIF data. Something I have ended up doing!
I'm an occasional coder. I really enjoy being exactly that, an occasional coder. It's a fun challenge when it's new and fresh, but I've done it previously as a day job and maybe 80% of the time it's just deathly boring.
A colleague messaged me last week asking for a hand with some code he'd been struggling with for two days, trying to form some custom queries in something similar to but not quite SQL that neither of us had seen before. I scratched my head for 20 minutes, worked it out, fixed it and then gave it him back. I love stuff like that, but if I never have to touch it again I'll be happy.
It’s a basic lack of respect for the profession, I don’t work on the IT helpdesk
As Molgrips said, it's a problem endemic within most IT-related vocations. I've always said, if you have a good IT department then no-one notices, if you have a bad one then everyone notices.
I think part of the problem perhaps is that geeks often either underestimate the value of their skills or are bad at putting themselves forward. I've lost count of the number of PCs I've repaired over the years for my mum's hairdresser's cousin's dog groomer and then replied oh, it's OK when asked how much I want paying. In my head I enjoy it, it's good practice for me and I'm doing someone a favour should I ever want my dog grooming (I don't have a dog). But it devalues the profession. If a plumber "only" charged you mate's rates you'd think they'd done you a favour.
Forty grand for a graduate? 😲 I've been in this game for nearly 30 years and I'm not earning that much.
The Brick, some observations:
- you don't like processes
- you don't like long hours doing mundane work with lots of stuff that doesn't seem about the clever stuff you are an expert in
- you think that it would be better if you could just work for yourself
You think you are paid poorly compared to teaching and legal stuff. You can retrain as a teacher quite quickly and there is a shortage of computing teachers so you'd find it fairly easy to get work. BUT there's a huge amount of formal process and drudge work rather than just imparting knowledge or working with the kid who really doesn't get it to show them a different way of thinking.
Getting a decent salary as a lawyer takes a lot of time, "graduates" are often on less than minimum wage if their real hours were taken into account. Most are not doing anything exciting or challenging and have huge amounts of dull formal process to follow. There will be plenty of layers saying I could be earning double if I did software instead (interestingly a friend who is a contract lawyer says its a lot like software dev - you mostly cut n past clauses form other things then spend the time fixing the fact the definitions or clauses don't work well together or someone wants a little change here or there - rarely does he start with a blank template)
You also compared yourself to plumbers and joiners. Whilst theres all sort of different plumbers and joiners getting paid all sort of different rates with different levels of hassle to live with; the self employed ones who seem to be getting good money also need to be: sales person, marketing department, credit controller, project estimator, etc. And if they are any good at it its probably because they've got some mundane process for the bits they don't enjoy doing.
If you really want to go self employed (and I mean working for yourself not long term contracting which is just pretending to be self employed) then there is software work around. In fact I'd have thought for embedded stuff (although its not my area) it would lend itself well to this. I've used a couple of one man bands to do all sorts of stuff like creating prototypes, setting up Dev Ops processes, introducing automation etc. Discrete projects which, importantly are paid on deliverables (like a kitchen or heating system being installed) rather than an hourly rate. If you can give certainty on cost you will be in demand (and helps a lot with IR35 too). However - they will want documentation, and they will want an attractive, easy user interface. The ones I've worked with have pretty much got jobs by word of mouth but you'll need a really solid reputation for ability to deliver to do that, and a set of interpersonal skills which are often lacking in the software industry so that when someone calls you looking for a quote you don't scare them away!
I had someone read my documentation once - it was me.
I wrote a 'oh-s*it' recovery document for a process owner. They didn't fully understand it so they flew me into town - put me in a s****y hotel for the night and the next day I had to present it. Unknown to me there ended up being 10+ people in the room - the Project Sponsor, the PM, a client manager, various subject matter experts blah... I'm not a showman, but I am a complete arse so all I did was read it cove to cover - word for word.
Then, I did a roll play:
'Jane from the warehouse calls up. She says the batch is stuck in the system.... ' Now - what do you do?
Blah blah blah - all scrambling 'Is the answer read page 14 item 3 of the recovery document?'
Yes.
Management love it - they wanted my physical copy and the A4 pad I was doodling on.
What a weird experience - and probably the one read out of the hundreds of documents I've written.
My experience of auditors is that they pretty much just weigh the documentation to make sure there is enough.
Whereas my experience of auditors is that they will pick features and drill through the entire documentation and test set to make sure you have done the work at all levels (I'm 178B/C in aviation land). My last audit was a full week of 9-5 with the auditor. We had actions to complete coming out of that week, minor stuff, before they signed off the software as ready.
Getting audited in that way changes your perspective a little.
Or, you could try metrics on yourself to see what your average error rates are both with and without the full doc/test set. Also eye opening.
Software IS documentation. It’s an unambiguous list of instructions
I'm not sure how to phrase this inoffensively, but you really could not be more wrong. I mean, just for one example, your software will likely have loops of some sort, and that structure is one step up from the instructions themselves, as is the (e.g.) function that contains the loops. And before you say, yes, but that's all in the code as well, the end system features that the loops support or the function is used in or the module is designed for, that will be non-obvious from the code, and if you can't come at that from top down via system requirements and design from interface right down to code level, then your documentation does not tell anyone what they need to approach the thing from the p.o.v. of someone outside the code authoring loop.
In otherwords, no, software is not documentation. Don't misquote the agile manifesto.
I've just retired after 35 years in software development, although it's a few years now since I wrote any production code. When I left school, I actually started training in law - did a year at the College of Law in Guildford, then started as an articled clerk. I can safely say that software was a massively more entertaining and varied career than law was ever likely to be, and also by the time I retired I was earning rather more than the average solicitor.
As a few have (almost) pointed out, it seems that the OP is making choices that would be sub optimal in almost any work context, not just software. Attitude is worth a lot at work - when I was recruiting I gave it rather more weight than any specific technical experience. A sabbatical might help, but be careful - I don't think I ever saw someone who took a sabbatical and didn't end up leaving their job altogether within a few months of returning. Not that that is a bad thing - it probably means that the break enabled them to be clearer about what they wanted from life - and work.
I’m not sure how to phrase this inoffensively, but you really could not be more wrong.
That's putting it mildly. I've seen countless examples of code that is almost impossible to understand, or would take so long to decipher it would be easier to write something new from scratch. Also trying to update to fix code that is badly written can result in making things worse, if you aren't sure how it works in the first place. Badly written, or out of date, documentation can be just as bad mind you.
Oh and in case anyone I used to work with is reading this, yes I probably wrote plenty examples of said bad code.
if you have a bad one then everyone notices.
Sometimes. Some people just shrug their shoulders and think it's normal that software systems have to be fully replaced every five years cos the old ones are rubbish.
I can recommend games, lots of problem solving and interesting projects...i seem to enjoy so much so i end up doing stuff in my spare time too.
heres my latest project...if you like arcade shooters
Twin Ruin - arcade shooter steam page
it can be a bit full on at times, and does require a bit of a passion for games, but the work is always interesting.
– you don’t like processes
Correct
– you don’t like long hours doing mundane work with lots of stuff that doesn’t seem about the clever stuff you are an expert in
Ish, no one like boring work but I am easily bored but I have done lot and lots of boring stuff and continue to. I currently work medium hours (07:30-1700) but previous jobs have done some lots of real long hours so I think its fair to say I don't like it but not fair to say I don't or haven't done it.
– you think that it would be better if you could just work for yourself
I used to be 1000% like this but not so sure now. I m so demotivated.
You think you are paid poorly compared to teaching and legal stuff. You can retrain as a teacher quite quickly and there is a shortage of computing teachers so you’d find it fairly easy to get work. BUT there’s a huge amount of formal process and drudge work rather than just imparting knowledge or working with the kid who really doesn’t get it to show them a different way of thinking.
Sorry wrong impression I must have given. More that there is a good route without the constant stepping backwards.
If you really want to go self employed (and I mean working for yourself not long term contracting which is just pretending to be self employed) then there is software work around. In fact I’d have thought for embedded stuff (although its not my area) it would lend itself well to this. I’ve used a couple of one man bands to do all sorts of stuff like creating prototypes, setting up Dev Ops processes, introducing automation etc. Discrete projects which, importantly are paid on deliverables (like a kitchen or heating system being installed) rather than an hourly rate.
If you can give certainty on cost you will be in demand (and helps a lot with IR35 too). However – they will want documentation, and they will want an attractive, easy user interface. The ones I’ve worked with have pretty much got jobs by word of mouth but you’ll need a really solid reputation for ability to deliver to do that, and a set of interpersonal skills which are often lacking in the software industry so that when someone calls you looking for a quote you don’t scare them away!
I get what you're saying regarding fixed quotes but of the people I know who have work self employed (properly as well defiantly outside IR35) they have all said they refuse fixed price work. The risk is too massive with stretching specs, unknowns etc.
That’s putting it mildly. I’ve seen countless examples of code that is almost impossible to understand
But that's not a fault of code. It's a fault of bad code.
To an extent, code should be self-documenting. Any arcane magic you come up with that wouldn't be immediately understandable to another competent programmer, well, I cannot offhand think of any high-level language that doesn't support comments.
The operative word there of course is "should." (-:
heres my latest project…if you like arcade shooters
That looks fun. Did Geometry Wars and Ikaruga have a baby?
If you don't like coding, get some business knowledge and become a BA.
People that know how systems work and can translate that to people who don't are incredibly valuable. IMO, it's more interesting work too.
FWIW, on salary:
I'm a senior engineer (one step away from principle). £120k salaries for a principle engineer are not unheard of, but I don't think we have any working in the UK office.
I’ve seen countless examples of code that is almost impossible to understand, or would take so long to decipher it would be easier to write something new from scratch.
Amazes me how often I come back to stuff I've written and have no idea what it does / how it does it. So I rewrite it with more commentry and then 5 years later will probably come back to it and still go WTF was I thinking!
Even whole applications / documents, people ask me 'do you remember writing document X' to which I reply 'no', then I get emailed a whole document with my name on it and completely forgotton about.....
Sounds like a lot of STW folk are highly skilled but work at cr*p legacy / zombie co’s in the middle of nowhere.
Just transfer your skills into Ml or pick a fast growing SaaS co to work at. You will get paid more and not have to work for a bunch of non technical middle managers. I get embedded systems is a bit of a niche that personally I wouldn’t want anything to do with but there are a lot of highly funded startups that need this right now and are happy to do remote.
Bike / Tech / UK / likely 6 figures or
close without even thinking below. They have a cr@p ton of jobs for anyone that knows anything to do with bikes at any level globally...
https://boards.greenhouse.io/peloton/jobs/2212041
Amazes me how often I come back to stuff I’ve written and have no idea what it does / how it does it.
Guilty.
My code comments were often as much an insight into my state of mind at the time as they were useful annotations. One of the truest comments I ever wrote was "don't bugger about with this, you'll break it." I've revisited that chunk of code several times over the years and have proved that comment correct every time.
I’ve seen countless examples of code that is almost impossible to understand, or would take so long to decipher it would be easier to write something new from scratch.
I hate it when people try to argue the latter. If you don't understand it, you can't rewrite it.
@mrmonkfinger
Or, you could try metrics on yourself to see what your average error rates are both with and without the full doc/test set. Also eye opening.
Oh I'm massively FOR testing, at every level. And a hierarchy of strong testable formal requirements. That's all good. Even RCM lists can be very useful if kept brief and realistic.
Documentation wise though... meh...
Ever had to write a SOUP document explaining why Visual Studio is a valid choice of IDE? Or worse, write SOUP tests to prove that it can indeed compile code correctly? I have. That kind of stuff is just mindless process insanity, purely performed to add weight to the documentation.
Likewise I've had clients that want detailed design docs that go to literal code level - which means they are either instantly out-of-date as soon as the code changes or every code change means multiple documents need to be updated/reviewed/approved/released. 🤦♂️
Likewise I’ve had clients that want detailed design docs that go to literal code level – which means they are either instantly out-of-date as soon as the code changes or every code change means multiple documents need to be updated/reviewed/approved/released.
There must be Apps which generate that sort of thing eg we have code which can walk an SMMP MIB and generate a user frienly PDF document from it. So each time you change a MIB, it's just one command to update all the documentation.
The most worthless thing is when your non-tech boss/manager asks you to include a a code dump in the technical specification. And yes - they still ask me to do it regularly.
Sorry wrong impression I must have given. More that there is a good route without the constant stepping backwards.
Teaching probably wasn't a good example either then. Plenty of teachers who will complain that the job is a constant battle of ongoing change to the latest fad - either to satisfy local or national leadership.
Law seems like it might be more settled but in fact, if your become highly experienced in lets lay IP law then decide you'd rather ride a boom in commercial property law you'll be going back to being a novice again, and if you then decide you want to switch to doing criminal defence work - you'll be back to the beginning again.
I get what you’re saying regarding fixed quotes but of the people I know who have work self employed (properly as well defiantly outside IR35) they have all said they refuse fixed price work. The risk is too massive with stretching specs, unknowns etc.
Absolutely, that's why if someone is willing to do it they get plenty of work. Its also why you need decent processes to record and document what the client asked for, what you built, how it meets the spec etc; and to work out how you underestimated something and learn for next time. This is the difference between being self-employed / working for yourself and following someone else's orders. It comes with risk. It comes with a load of other hassle (accounting, bureaucracy, chasing for new business) but people want the upside with none of the downside. Of course it also comes with a degree of freedom and potentially happiness (and financial reward if you get it right). The biggest problem the guys who do it really well seem to face is they can't scale without hiring staff; and as soon as you hire staff you are managing process not the stuff you enjoy.
Ever had to write a SOUP document explaining why Visual Studio is a valid choice of IDE? Or worse, write SOUP tests to prove that it can indeed compile code correctly? I have. That kind of stuff is just mindless process insanity, purely performed to add weight to the documentation.
Do you work for me?
Everyone hates SOUP reviews, but done properly they actually safe a fortune and or huge risk (what if there is a bug in VS that means it doesn't compile your code how your intended), only when you've experienced the product going to market with some undisclosed soup in it - then discovering there is some massive problem do you appreciate the value in reviewing what goes in and how it gets used. It becomes mindless when its just churning it out for no reason - but thats as much your fault as theirs.