[Closed] Possible can of worms - religion in schools

PhilAmon - I am speechless.

I do not agree with the statement, but that is surely the thrust of it.

'twas a joke.

You won't go to heaven if you don't believe in it.

Hell on the other hand is less fussy..

It's not as bad as the enforcement of Green dogma that's just caused the burning to death of over 300 people in Oz.

Er, could you explain that one to me please.

There could be an argument though that we need some kind of Christian religious education as many of our common principles come from Christianity.

Please explain what those principles are?
We interpret the bible today based on 21st century moral values not those of the 1st century. If we did we would still be murdering and torturing based on the whim of a malicious, jealous and capricious god.
The bible does not shape our morals and behaviour (or shouldnt!) if it did we would spend our time more concerned with coveting our neighbours Assess!(sp?)
Just as a 10 year old child today could explain to the most brilliant of scholars several centuries ago that the world is not flat, we should not be basing our lifes on a book that could have been written by a goatherd in the 1st century.

Whilst it is possible that their is a God it is highly unlikely.
Unfortunately believers have removed the later option from their thought processes with very little REASON by using a large dollop of faith (a belief in that which is known but cannot be proven) in the absence of any real evidence.
Whilst I have no real need to offend believers (and in the words of Bill Hicks forgive me) I struggle to understand why otherwise rational human beings can believe in such a MASSIVE theory with so little (objective or tangible)evidence to support it and quite a lot of evidence to counter it.
We are then expected to teach this to our children lest we be construed as intolerant.. now that is beyond belief.

As for the comment on natural disasters like the heat wave in Australia, this is a tough one I'll admit. Christians don't always have the answers, one thing for sure tho is that God does care and does help in situations like these and uses his people to help in all manner of natural disasters like these.

Whilst it is possible that their is a God it is highly unlikely

how could we know ? There might be one god per atom. For the life of me I can't think why it matters. Say there were some number of gods (you choose) - are you saying that you would behave differently as a result ? Isn't this hypocritical ? Are we saying you will only do the right thing under threat of punishment or promise of reward ? For a fact any god that required worship would be despicable. To my mind heaven and hell (purely human creations I suspect) sound equally awful 🙁

Have a look at this place - i was quite scared by the website alone !
http://www.ponatahi.school.nz/

Please explain what those principles are?
We interpret the bible today based on 21st century moral values not those of the 1st century. If we did we would still be murdering and torturing based on the whim of a malicious, jealous and capricious god.

Actually in the 1st century it was the Christians who were being tortured and fed to the lions as I recall. They were waiting for the world to end and had been saved so did not seem to mind. It was only after the people who wanted power got into the game that things went bad.

learnt the Christian parables when I was little and none of the sin stuff and basically they are about being kind to everyone even those who are different to you and thankful that you have a good life and to lead a simple life. I am in no way religious and prefer to think that what god is is the sum of all humanity but I would much rather my kids learnt Christian morals rather than the rubbish on TV which seems mostly concerned with making you consume things that you don't need and celebrating thuggish footballers and generally stupid people.

I think you will find that most of our Justice and moral codes are based on Christian values and that has driven many 'modern' social reforms. The fact that our law system is conscientiously deliberated and restorative instead of fixed and arbitrary and punitive for example. These are Christian values.

Of course there are paradoxes such as one Christian group saying the slave trade was gods will and the other that it was the opposite.

think you will find that most of our Justice and moral codes are based on Christian values and that has driven many 'modern' social reforms. The fact that our law system is conscientiously deliberated and restorative instead of fixed and arbitrary and punitive for example. These are Christian values.

Especially all that tax break crap if your married cause being a married couple with kids is better than being loving parents.... really grips my shit that one.

Simon .. I would not behave differently if there was a God except for the fact I would no longer argue there is not one!!

Married Mans allowance (and Mortgage Releif MIRAS) was abolished in 2000.
AFAIK there are no benefits to being married.
There are no government benefits to being a loving family whether married or not.

The removal of married mans allowance and MIRAS means that both parents have to work in order to feed and house their families. This is being increased by the provision of child care from lower ages (3 years is it?)

IMO The breaking up of family life (married or otherwise) by financial policy has lead to the current increase in gang culture as there are no stable roll models available.

I think you will find that most of our Justice and moral codes are based on Christian values and that has driven many 'modern' social reforms. The fact that our law system is conscientiously deliberated and restorative instead of fixed and arbitrary and punitive for example. These are Christian values

There is nothing in use today that forms any of this that hasnt been derived during the intervening period. The Bible teaches us nothing that could not be written in the first century.

As Sam Harris states, it is an intellectual emergency when we consider that only 12% of the American population believe life came about through natural selection.
Whilst fairy stories may be harmless, when they determine international and national policy they are certainly not and millions die every year as a result of the West’s belief in an invisible God.
This should be taught in schools.

[i]learnt the Christian parables when I was little and none of the sin stuff and basically they are about being kind to everyone even those who are different to you and thankful that you have a good life and to lead a simple life.[/i]

I agree that the principles behind many of the parables are sound and should be taught to children (and, indeed, many adults), I don't think you need a god to back them up though.

FWIW, I, with my atheist tendencies, was most impressed at a christening service for a friend's child by the vicar's interpretation of the tale of the good samaritan. He looked at it in a couple of ways that I'd never though of, but, again, a god wasn't necessary in that interpretation.

IMO The breaking up of family life (married or otherwise) by financial policy has lead to the current increase in gang culture as there are no stable roll models available.

Well if I cold be bothered I'd argue that your are wrong.

[i]Well if I cold be bothered I'd argue that your are wrong. [/i]

Staggers back, dazed by the sheer brilliance of this retort. There is nothing more to say. God is dead.

😉

Well it would only go round in circles anyway we dont agree simple as that.

Many of the arguments expressed here are the regular set of tough philospophical conundrums such as 'If God is good why does he allow suffering'. If you're interested I'd recommend a look a Tim Keller's website where there are some mp3 talks in which he tackles some of these issues -

http://www.thereasonforgod.com/

TL:DR
so ill leave you with my 2pnce

Atheists are as bad as Godbotherers, with thier dogmatic arguments,
My order of distain for "other religions" goes like this
1) Christians
2) Atheists
3) everyone else

If covered at all it should all be covered equally, including Atheism.

"Praying" in schools is often sold off as a "moment for personal reflection" and i have no problems with that. sitting with ones eyes shut dosent mean you have to be whinging to the giant Goat in the sky.

Im not an Atheist, I dont care, none of it affects me, its not a case of "if your not with us your against us"

im not sitting on the fence either, im miles away, possibly on my bike, got better things to do.

if i ever aquire a child, i wont enforce a religion, neither will i enforce atheism, i'll point out and try and ensure they understand the options in an unbiased manner.

on a side line, i heard a woman, in sainsburies cafe, kicking off about her toddlers food (2 or 3yrs) with the words "he cant eat that, hes a vegitarian"
Made me suprisingly annoyed, ill bet he didnt choose to be a vegisexual.

the one question i always put to christians is: who get's to heaven someone who 'is a christian' goes to church, says prayers, but does not live by the 10 commandments or me, an athiest who has strong moral convictions but denies god's existence.

If there was a god i cannot understand why he doesn't chose the good man over the bad beliver! They often answer the beliver, sins can be forgiven not believing can't.

As an aside it's christain week (or something) at uni this week. Some of the lectures sound very interesting. "has science disproved christianity?"

my thoughts: no it hasn't disproved christianity but has disproved god.

As Sam Harris states, it is an intellectual emergency when we consider that only 12% of the American population believe life came about through natural selection.

why?
why does it matter what they think about the origins of life?
it dosent change anything, least of all to us, let them believe what they want.

also Tom, as may be covered in one of them there lectures, some scientists believe the have accidently proved god DOES exist,
something about, in the mathmatical equation that defines the univerese, there is one constant, a number, like Pi is a constant, that balances it all (think neo in the matrix)
except for the balance to work, they reckon the value has to be accurate to twelve trillion decimal places (give or take),

you could say, its improbable but possible, or you could take it as beign so improbable there must be a divine creator playing with his giant seesaw...

Atheists are as bad as Godbotherers

ya think ? I've given up atheism for a less dogmatic form, but it seems to me atheism is usually quite personal, and they don't go around recruiting or burning people at stakes

i reckon they would burn a few of the more "extremeist" god botherers if it wasnt against what they believe/the law, and I think a 160~ post long thread may indicate they are more passionate about it than apathetic...?

not that im saying your wrong, just as i see it.

i shoudlnt have looked at this thread, im gonna get even less work done this afternoon.
x

Atheism rocks!

Faith; If one has enough faith that there is an elephant sitting in the next room doing the Telegraph crossword, then this notion becomes a reality in one's mind.

Just like the Tooth Fairy, Father Christmas and God, the elephant is a fantasy in one's imagination.

Why is only believing in God taken seriously?

i reckon they would burn a few of the more "extremeist" god botherers

"they" ?? Surely it's not exactly an organised irrelgion ? No unchurches, no abishops, no antipope...

Olly

if i ever aquire a child, i wont enforce a religion, neither will i enforce atheism, i'll point out and try and ensure they understand the options in an unbiased manner.

on a side line, i heard a woman, in sainsburies cafe, kicking off about her toddlers food (2 or 3yrs) with the words "he cant eat that, hes a vegitarian"
Made me suprisingly annoyed, ill bet he didnt choose to be a vegisexual.

" Would that be ok? "
- in the spirit of this thread, no its not, the kid shoul be allowed to make up their own mind whent heyr old enough and have been shown other religions, as well as science.

I'm responsible for a pile of 90 engineering drawings, its my job, if i mess up i get blamed/winged at/fired

If god realy is responsible for keeping us all safe, even those who have yet to "find" him/her/it then they are doing a pretty rubbish job and should be sacked.

Anyway, you dont go to heaven when you die, you wait, and wait, and wait, then when gods finaly ready he'll let us all in or cast us off into a big firely pit. So say St Peter has 12 billion people to get through (presuming the world ends tommorow and there realy are more people allive than have ever lived, not true) and it takes him half an hour to interview you and find out how bad you are, do you realy want to wait 685,000 years to get to the front of the que, thats worse than the post office!

My ex-wife and I are both veggies but we gave our kids meat when they asked for it, and both are now confirmed carnivores. In fact, my son's strapline on MSN was "For every animal you don't eat, I'll eat 3" :o)

Religion is schools? Should be completely banned as it is in many countries. except as a academic subject of comparative religion.

Indoctrinating kids with a belief in fairy tales that skews their relationship with reality is tantamount to child abuse

why?
why does it matter what they think about the origins of life?
it dosent change anything, least of all to us, let them believe what they want.

Until they decide that they should wage a war (backed by the big bloke upstairs) on you as you belive in nothing / a different bloke upstairs / FSM. OK forget war, how about medical treatment or the right to vote / drive / go out alone?

SSP

good point, junkyard, i hadnt considered that.
my personal view of being a meat eater as being "the norm" swinging it biasdly.
unavoidable bias occours i guess, you can avoid it, it just happens.
if a man in a balaclava runs towards you swinging a sword, do you move out of the way?
any decision you make must be biased, based on previous experience or even what you believe (unlikley to have happened before, but youd still move wouldn't you)
though, if you put a bacon sarnie infront of a child, its then up to the kid. they may change thier mind in a few years, but your not ramming down their throat?
(would work better if the kid made the connection between the sarnie and peppathepig)

indeed SSP, when some loon starts to fiddle with my driving and drinking laws, ill have something to complain about,

When he throws a bomb at me though, I'll not try and convince him that the god that told him to throw it is unreasonable, ill just throw a bigger one back.

I have no problems with veggies for the record, my Ex was veggie, so i didnt eat meat more than a couple of times for 3 years, i didnt miss it, i didnt feel restricted, just how it panned out. another life choice, only a problem when you start dropping "meat is murder" propaganda through the door (but they [veggies] dont, so its ok)

Im not an Atheist, I dont care, none of it affects me, its not a case of "if your not with us your against us"

Olly.
If you read my (or others) contributions you would see how even in secular countries a belief in god impacts all of us in our everyday life. If you are disinterested then thats another matter.

Surfer - a belief in god only affects me by being annoyed buy god botherers. In no other way does it have any effect on me or my life

Personally I don't see what all the fuss is about. I went to a catholic school, went to mass twice a week but I was C of E. There was none of this 'oh your C of E so you can't come to mass'. They welcomed me into the school and included me regardless of their faith. Was it forced upon me?? No. Did it bother me?? No. Did I enjoy going to mass/church?? Yes. Am I a practising Christian today?? No. Did going to mass teach me moral values?? Yes. Do I believe in a God/creator?? Yes.

We get that much rubbish thrown at us about the 'big bang' theory. IMO I only have to go for a ride in the mountains and look at what I am surrounded by and think to myself 'is this all here by chance'. It soon puts it all in perspective (for me anyway).

The problem today is that nobody is willing to accept others beliefs whether Muslim, Buddhist or Christian. Also, we have become a nation that when somebody talks about God we freeze up and get defensive. People have forgotten that Catholicism and Christian faith has long been a part of our culture up until recent times.

When I visit Italy I see lots of people walking past the churches/basilicas doing the sign of the cross in front of a street full of people. Now my question is how would that go down in peoples opinion in this country if we were seeing numerous people in our cities/streets doing the sign of cross. You would more than likely get the p*ss taken out of you or called a religious nutter.

Either way, whatever you believe in, live and let live I say no matter what faith.

TandemJeremy

Without going over old ground your statement is incorrect. As a tax payer you have (or should) have an interest in how the taxes are spent in your name.

This may be as simple as utilising revenue that could be spent on a deserving cause which is diverted to pay for a war that you disagree with.

Religion also interferes in the allocation of funding into medical research. In the US it is a criminal offence to undertake stem cell research. This is potentially the most significant research currently being undertaken and may provide cures and treatments for some of our most common diseases, such as Cancer. This alone could ease the suffering of millions.

Funding is also witheld in the US (again!) to vacinate against serious diseases as key politicians feel that the disease itself is beneficial in preventing pre-marital sex!

Millions die of Aids each year in Africa through the Vaticans preaching that condom use (even amongst married couples where one partner is HIV positive) is against gods law.

Its naive to think that a belief in God does not impact us all daily. If you have no interest in the suffering of your fellow man then that's up to you. I however do.

'is this all here by chance

Nobody ever said it was here by chance.

Maybe less teaching of religion at that school of yours and more science would have equipped you with tools to understand that natural selection is not based on chance.

Ah, religion.

All makes for heated discussion. FACT. ;o)

All makes for heated discussion. FACT

Yes, not something we should shy away from.

and think to myself 'is this all here by chance'.

No, it's not. It's there because of a complex series of natural processes operating together over an extemely long period of time. Just because something is extremely beautiful or complex doesn't mean you have to invoke the supernatural.

[img] [/img]

😉 trolling HEAVEN!

trolling HEAVEN!

Maybe "thou doth protest to much"!

And Sir David Attenborough has been getting death threats from religious nutters for making a programme about Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.

These idiots get so upset when scientists rationally disprove their flawed beliefs through meticulous and parallel research programmes over a very long period.