Do you think somebody who can spend 30K+ of taxed income would settle for their child fliping burgers in maccyDs.?
Is that supposed to be a suitable metaphor for serving ( and dying ) in the ranks ?
Fair enough. But both were educated at public or grammar school, so probbly not from the least privileged backgrounds. And don't you think they are exceptions to the rule, really?
All Army Officers are educated at Sandhurst. It's the Army Officer training academy!
"Sir Michael Beetham joined as an airman was an LAC (private)"
And he was the Chief during the Falklands War.
Plenty of grammar schoolboys up there too.
Whitgift School is an independent day school educating approximately 1,200 boys aged 10 to 18 in South Croydon, London in a 45-acre (180,000 m2) parkland site.
Gen Wall is an alumnus. OK, it's probably not a Croydon comp, but hey, it's close....
Fred, you really are so far up your own arse on this one, that we're planning on sending in a cave rescue team to try and get you out of there.
Firstly it devalues the soldiers and junior officers who contribute so much in today's forces, particularly on contemporary operations. You clearly underestimate the complexity and responsibility that we now expect our soldiers to cope with, from eighteen year old Privates handling multi-million weapons systems, to lowly non commissioned officers flying hugely complex Apache helicopters.
Secondly you clearly do not understand the difference between a graduate and a potential officer, the two are often far from synonymous!
Thirdly, you overlook the esprit de corps and can do attitude that leads people to the highest ranks - the reason you so often see people with public school backgrounds in the forces is because frequently their Fathers were in the forces too, and the military paid for their schooling because of the disruptive effect of frequent moves on children's educations, the CCF system in public schools, and the desire to achieve arrived at through their family example. This is not an example of nepotism or an old boys network any more than an Electrician or plumbers son going on to become one himself.
Finally, you overlook the fact that so many officers have degrees that they obtained through military sponsorship - they often would not have been to university if it was not for the forward looking, progressive outlook taken by the forces.
The officer in charge of sandhurst in 91ish joined the army as a private soldier
so much for the Sandhurst education in the those days
Do you think somebody who can spend 30K+ of taxed income would settle for their child fliping burgers in maccyDs.?
Comments like this prove that the class system is well and truly entrenched in this country.
It may not be a profession which would feature high up on many people's list of aspirations (largely because of the sneering prejudice and condescension shown by others), but it's an honest job, and as it involves providing one of life's basic necessities, a fairly admirable one, I'd say. I'd have more respect for someone who works at Mac Ds to pay their way in life, than the person who looks down on someone else for doing an honest day's graft.
Thirdly, you overlook the esprit de corps and can do attitude that leads people to the highest ranks - the reason you so often see people with public school backgrounds in the forces is because frequently their Fathers were in the forces too, and the military paid for their schooling because of the disruptive effect of frequent moves on children's educations, the CCF system in public schools, and the desire to achieve arrived at through their family example.
Good point, forgot to mention that earlier!
Is that supposed to be a suitable metaphor for serving ( and dying ) in the ranks ?
no it wasnt a metaphor for anything
Just trying to say that if a parent invests 30K+ per year in their childs education they wouldnt let their child end up flipping burgers, they would get them into a nice little earner no matter how thick they were ( mind you eton has an entrance exam )
Comments like this prove that the class system is well and truly entrenched in this country.
Every society has it's mcjobs that people look down on.
Out of interest what is a classless country? Germany? France? Netherlands? Italy? US? Sweden?
Which of those?
Elfinsafety,Congratulations, you've finally moved me to register and post.
Well there's something positive come out of it all, eh? 🙂
This argument's going to go round and round in circles. I will say, that my view of the leadership structure of the British Armed Forces has been enlightened slightly, it's good to see that they are moving (albeit very slowly) in the right direction, and there have been some good contributions from various people, but my overall point of view remains the same.
Really can't be bothered any more though, sorry. You're not going to change your opinions, I'm not going to change mine. There are several points I could take up and challenge (and in some cases prove wrong), but it's an awful waste of energy, tbh. So a bit pointless to continue really.
no it wasnt a metaphor for anythingJust trying to say that if a parent invests 30K+ per year in their childs education they wouldnt let their child end up flipping burgers, they would get them into a nice little earner no matter how thick they were ( mind you eton has an entrance exam )
But MacDonalds is not what we're talking about is it ? Are you saying that after spending 30k a year that Etonians parents would want something 'better' for their children than serving in the ranks ? I think it is because after I'd said
You don't find Old Etonians in the ranks regardless of how easy it might be for us peasants to become officers
You replied
most Etonians parents whould have higher expectations for their children dont you think especialy after spending all that cash?
I think that if you step back and take a look at what you're saying, you'd realise that you're being more than slightly disrespectful to those serving and dying in the ranks right now. Wouldn't you say ?
Elf admitting he is wrong 😀
Don't be so silly. I'm [b]never[/b] wrong. Have you learned [i]nothing[/i]??? 😕
Just bored with it now that's all.
I think I'm going to unregister. Afaik Fred has admitted to being wring which must mean that there's some sort of bodysnatcher thing going on!
This argument's going to go round and round in circles.......You're not going to change your opinions, I'm not going to change mine........So a bit pointless to continue really.
ffs don't stop because of that.
Start taking that attitude, and this place will be ****ed
Clubber stop being ridiculous. When am I ever wrong? Seriously? It isn't possible. Check on tinternet.
Ernie; it's just got a bit boring, sorry. Trouble is, when you're right all the time like I am, it's difficult to have to deal with all the poor folk who are wrong. 🙁
Ah well. Not everyone can be so privileged I spose...
public school backgrounds in the forces is because frequently their Fathers were in the forces too, and the military paid for their schooling because of the disruptive effect of frequent moves on children's educations, the CCF system in public schools, and the desire to achieve arrived at through their family example. This is not an example of nepotism or an old boys network
ridiculous and farcical. meritocratic or self perpetuating elite? That is exactly the kind of barriers to entry that perpetuates the old boys network.
Some bullshine on this thread but that takes the biscuit.
I think I'm going to unregister.
At least one good thing will have come from the thread.
Show me a comp that offers boarding, and I'm sure the military will send military kids there. The purpose of the boarding school allowance is to stop mil kids being uprooted as their parents move around every few years. It's a max of about £5000 a term so you're not going to Eton with it! The alternative to your
self perpetuating elite?
is therefore the systematic compromising of military kids' education. Hardly conducive to social mobility is it?
Elfinsafety - MemberDon't be so silly. I'm never wrong
Here :
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/despicable-low-life-thieving-scum#post-2018701
When [u]you[/u] admitted that [u]you[/u] were wrong, and that [u]I was[/u] right 8)
Shhhhh!
😳
Nothing, nothing...
Charming dd!
Airtragic - I know a several teachers who made their careers teaching int eh army schools attached to military bases. Free. So there is certainly some free english language teaching day schools for the military kids
Does the ordinary squaddie get teh £5000 pa to send his kids to boarding school or just the officers?
Like the man in the orthopaedic shoes, I stand corrected. But at
you would probably be paying less than £10,000 a year at a state boarding school.
it's still using up most of the allowance. So if mil types want to send their sprogs to Harrow, they're still going to have to stump up a lot.
How is it
barriers to entry
Available to all ranks. Scaled down for those on higher pay rates, actually What made you ask that? Care for some vinegar with that chip?
These day schools, is there one at ALL locations military personnel are posted, in the UK and abroad?
because its self perpetuating. Your dad is an officer so you go to the right schools which smooths your way to become an officer - so entry depoends on your background not your ability or potential.
Its a classic example of a self perpetuating elite
edit
seeking knowledge. I genuinely didn't know and it makes a significant difference to the argument as clearly if the squaddies kids get he same dosh than it reduces the barriers but again clearly does not eliminate tehmactually What made you ask that?
Your Dad's (or Mum's, not very right on of you is it?) rank has nothing to do with it. It's an allowance to offset the disadvantages that serving in the military confers on your kids.
these day schools, is there one at ALL locations military personnel are posted, in the UK and abroad?
I have no idea. I know they are around and available in many locations. I would assume its only in the places with a big permanent presence
edit : Crossed posts - see my edit above
I would assume its only in the places with a big permanent presence
Correct. Very big.
So anyway airtragic, how you liking it so far on here .............reckon you'll stick around ?
Well I'm usually happy to just read, but I'm sitting around ill and when the subject is important to you...
when the subject is important to you
Oooou.............wrong answer 😐
The reason the uptake for boarding schools is high for officers is that many are on 2 year postings while airman can serve at one location for many years.Also there are more oversea postings for officer, both of which are not good for education.
because its self perpetuating. Your dad is an officer so you go to the right schools which smooths your way to become an officer - so entry depoends on your background not your ability or potential.Its a classic example of a self perpetuating elite
Totall cobblers
To gain entry first you have to undergo isometric tests then several interviews ,depending what academic qualifications you possess different careers are available. If you would like to gain a commission and pass all of the above then you have to go on a 2 day course where you are tested mentaly and physicaly.
Mikeypies - the ranks can also move around every two years also at the drop of a hat, and obviously children from the ranks can therefore go to boarding school.
I think one or two above really need to get down the recruiting office to ask for CO entrance criteria.
My father was in the RAF so I went to a public school subsidised by the tax payer. It's not about perpetuating an elite, it's about making sure the kids of forces personnel can have a stable education. You might not realise but there are lots of different exam boards out there (with differing exam focus for the same subject and schools don't have a standard curriculum). That would mean if I moved mid-year, even to a new school with the same exam board for a subject, I could be going over exactly what I did in term 1 at the old school again in term 2 at the new school but I'd never get taught what the new school did in term 1. Funnily enough I didn't end up an officer in the forces either.
I think there are different types of public school to, for sure there were some kids from pretty rich families at the place I went but only a couple were what you'd describe as toffs, and they were the ones that got bullied. Most were kids from middle class families whose parents were prepared to make sacrifices to get their kids the best education. Any speaking with a posh accent probably got the same treatment they'd get at a comprehensive school.
Mikeypies - the ranks can also move around every two years also at the drop of a hat, and obviously children from the ranks can therefore go to boarding school.
That is true but for the majority (airmen) in the RAF it dosnt apply many spend several years in post (5+) and if your children are in the last years you can defer posting. As for the Army and Navy ?
I get the impression the Army is a pain for singletons or non married couples regarding postings.
Mikey, I can only speak for us but my Wife being a RAF Flight Nurse has a two year posting (which is now up) then can in theory be posted elsewhere depending on apart from RAF requirements, her first and second choice postings, promotion and what she specialises in.
