[Closed] Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Run Britain

Congratulations, you've finally moved me to register and post.

every turd has silver lining. Glad you're joining in, hope to see more posts from you.

I am a serving RAF officer, and what you write is tripe

you get used to it. Most just ignore it now.

It was explained to you wrong.

Well it was a RAF officer at their recruitment place what used to be on the Strand. And it isn't actually wrong; the entry requirements for COs are A-levels standard or higher. The vast majority of COs in the British military are university educated. Is it possible for an NCO lacking such educational qualifications to rise to the highest echelons of the military? Wasn't the impression I was given.

Certainly within the last 40 years recognition and rank is based on hard work and achievement.

Oh of course. I mean, this chap rose up through the ranks from the very bottom, din't he?

[img] [/img]

Well it was a RAF officer at their recruitment place what used to be on the Strand.

He was wrong.

And it isn't actually wrong;

Yes it is.

the entry requirements for COs are A-levels standard or higher. The vast majority of COs in the British military are university educated.

Correct. Your problem with this is? Certainly most are university educated, although not all. Any university will do, and it has nothing to do with what school you went to.

Is it possible for an NCO lacking such educational qualifications to rise to the highest echelons of the military? Wasn't the impression I was given.

Again, wrong. It's possible.

I am a serving RAF officer, and what you write is tripe

Name the top serving officers of the British Military who rose up through the ranks from the very bottom. Go on.

Y'know, the Cheif Air Marshalls, the Brigadiers, the Admirals, the Commodores. That lot.

There may be a few of the posher army regts where commissioning from less priveleged backgrounds is passively discouraged, due to posh blokes tending to enjoy the company of other posh blokes and likewise for the less posh.

So Class [i]does[/i] have an influence within the Military then? Thank you for supporting my claims. 🙂

The class system "glass ceiling" does not exist.

Prove it.

Elf - stop digging.

The original point which brought the military and class into this was that bravohote9er claimed you could be an army officer and working class which is clearly wrong by any rational standard.

Like many professions entering it automatically makes you middleclass. You might be from a working class background but once you are an officer you are middleclass - unless you already were a member of the aristocracy

Same as teachers, doctors, lawyers and all sorts of professions

omg, it's like arguing with a brick wall!!

Time to talk to my 2 year old on skype now. I'll get more sense out of him and he uses a hair brush as a mobile. I'll check back in 20 minutes and see how deep this hole is you've dug elfin.

Elf - stop digging.

I'm not digging. In fact, I've been proven correct, that Class has an influence in how a person might progress within the Military (and indeed many other paths in life). It's just that no-one else seems to have the balls to say it. To say a person can rise to the top regardless of background is purely hypothetical; a myth sold to those who want to believe it.

If I were to join the military, I'd never rise to the very top, as people like that bloke above would always have a privileged path above me. This is a fact borne out by the truth; that the very top positions in our society are almost exclusively occupied by those from privileged backgrounds. I haven't seen any coherent argument against that, just a load of waffle. Believe the hype if you want; I'll choose instead to look at the reality.

This has nothing to do with 'class envy' or any other crap people might suggest. It's the reality of our class-driven society.

Anyone mind telling me what active service this lady has ever seen? (She's Head of the UK Armed Forces, in case you din't know...)

[img] [/img]

To get to the very top, you need to spend no more than 3-4 years in each rank, assuming promotion to Lt Cdr/Maj/Sqn Ldr aged 30. Therefore, if you commission aged 28 for example, having been a non-commissioned soldier/sailor/airman, you simply don't have time. This may well be a fault of the military command/promotion structure, it's widely criticised. It is, however, nothing to do with class.

Prince Charles is hardly a typical and representative example of a commissioned officer.

"Vast majority" university educated? Maybe, but an unscientific poll of my workplace = 9 officers. 4 came up through the ranks and don't have degrees, including the boss. 2 of the junior ranks have degrees. Is that meritocratic enough?

Her Maj was in the Army, in as much as a woman could be at the time. See also Princes Andrew, Harry, William. If you want to question the military credentials of an upper-clas family, you've picked the wrong one.

And CO = Commanding Officer.

I'm not digging. In fact, I've been proven correct

And that there, ladies and gentlemen, is proof that Elfin will never back down. Never admit he's wrong. That he will argue a futile point in the face of overwhelming evidence and experience to the contrary. He is either trolling 100% of his time on here, or he is 100% convinced of his own magnificence.

On that basis, I'm out. You win Elfin.

And that there, ladies and gentlemen, is proof that Elfin will never back down. Never admit he's wrong. That he will argue a futile point in the face of overwhelming evidence and experience to the contrary.

But the thing is, I haven't bin proven wrong. where is this 'evidence to the contrary'? Hmm? Where is the [b]proof[/b] that a proportionate number of top military officers came from 'ordinary' backgrounds (IE, not public shool/Oxbridge type thing)? The overwhelming majority, if not all, come from 'privileged; backgrounds. And you know I'm right on that. The idea of a 'meritocracy' in the Military etc is little more than just that, an idea. There is little evidence to support this as 'fact'.

Name the top serving officers of the British Military who rose up through the ranks from the very bottom. Go on.

Y'know, the Cheif Air Marshalls, the Brigadiers, the Admirals, the Commodores. That lot.

Answer this question please, before slagging me off.

Thing is, you all know I'm right, ultimately. It's an inconvenient truth.

You're right on one point elfin - if you were to join the military you would never rise to the top.

Elfinsafety - Member

Anyone mind telling me what active service this lady has ever seen?

You're out of order Elfinman..........bringing Her Majesty into your silly argument.

..........begging Your pardon Ma'am

Prove it.

I don't have stats to hand, I don't know if they exist, but given that I'm a non-posh bloke, in the military, I think my instincts on this can be trusted, no? Whereas you're not in the military, so you're trading on the equivalent of what some bloke in a pub told you years ago.

And you've ignored my point on time constraints.

Elfinsafety - Member
If I were to join the military, I'd never rise to the very top

wouldn't last a year, not made of the 'right stuff' 😆

I don't have stats to hand, I don't know if they exist, but given that I'm a non-posh bloke, in the military, I think my instincts on this can be trusted, no?

Why should I trust you at all? I don't know you from Adam mate. So, you can't actually prove what you claim? Thought not.

Whereas you're not in the military, so you're trading on the equivalent of what some bloke in a pub told you years ago

So, you've met me, you know all my friends and acquaintances, do you? Thought not.

I don't know you from Adam mate.

If you don't know him from Adam, how can you call him "mate"?

Hmm.

surely though... it's only the middle management places that are meritocrital(?)?

your supervisors.. managers.. maybe even one or two of your area managers.. just for the look of the thing..

looks like a case of closing ranks to me..
get out while you can Elfin.. you'll never beat the conditioning that this lot have undergone..

A quick bit of googling reveals that the last three Chiefs of the Air Staff (the head honcho) attended the University of Bath, ICL and none! None had been to a school I'd heard of. Eton/Oxbridge conspiracy?

Why should I trust you at all? I don't know you from Adam mate. So, you can't actually prove what you claim? Thought not.

If you don't know him from Adam, how can you call him "mate"?

It's a term of endearment often directed at strangers ........ it doesn't signify that the user has "mated" with the receiver.

HTH

If you don't know him from Adam, how can you call him "mate"?

Sorry, you're right; he/she's in the RAF, not the Navy. 🙂

get out while you can Elfin.. you'll never beat the conditioning that this lot have undergone..

S'ok; I've proved me point, so I'm done now. I dare say various individuals will waffle on about something or other, but very few will actually face up to the [b]reality[/b] that we simply don't live in a [i]true[/i] meritocracy, as such a concept is a bit too much for them to contemplate.

S'ok; I've proved me point, so I'm done now

Well you've certainly proved something, but most of us knew it anyway....

Same as teachers

woohooo I'm middle class, when do I get the secrete handsahke thingy and all the money?

Me and Ernie got called 'Middle Class' the other day. 😀

I have been scrubbing myself with carbolic soap ever since....

Had a quick read of this, I could spend hours correcting stuff on here, but I will restrict myself to just a few points:

(i) My father joined the army as a private left as a brigadier.
(ii) In my experience, the "old boy network" is more pervasive (certainly in Banking) in the Netherlands, France and Germany.
(iii) the gap between educational attainment of the state and private sectors seems to have widened over recent years, reducing social mobility, and something needs to be done to address this.

Since I made the "old boys network" comment which has brought oh so much joy to this thread 😆 I thought I'd give you the heads up on this:

[url] http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00yb5kv [/url]

I expect some here to accuse the BBC of being some lefty organisation next.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

[b]Same as teachers[/b]

woohooo I'm middle class, when do I get the secrete handsahke thingy and all the money?

When you learn how to spell ffs 😐

Social mobility is low in the UK as a result of widening inequality as measured by the Gini coefficient and represented in a Lorenz curve. Or simply that the gap between the bottom and the top has become much greater. It started with Thatcher and Labour governments have made little impact on it (remember Mandelson '....filthy rich under NL' etc etc). Education cannot compensate for society and anyway the problem is not so much about mobility but rather inequality. Those that have been socially mobile like that nasty little piece of work Alan Sugar are used to justify inequality with the illusion that it's down to just rewards for talent and effort whereas most of the rich got there by choosing their parents carefully.

How do you spell 'ffs' then, Ernie?

elf there have been numerous AVM in the RAF who have entered as boy entrants as apprentices and quite a sizeable number of offices of air are ex apprentices. Officer appraisals are very direct and quite blunt if somebody isnt upto it they are found out very quickly.

Similary if an airman wants to be commissioned and gets approval from their Boss and CO they apply and if good enough get commissioned.

I knew a guy from a big council estate in Birkenhead who followed the path above,if you are good enough you are in .

The same as being a Pilot they are from a variety of different backgrounds some working class and others very wealthy but one things for sure if you arnt up to the job you are out regardless of who you are.

As for cannonfodder in the Airforce the officers go off to War

the gap between educational attainment of the state and private sectors seems to have widened over recent years

do you have any evidence for this as it would be quite hard to work out

Have to agree with airtragic. There is also some complete rubbish posted above regarding what class/schooling/academic achievements are required to become an Officer in our modern armed forces. As for the "cannonfodder" comments, jesus.

I don't think that anyone has argued against my point though have they ?

You don't find Old Etonians in the ranks regardless of how easy it might be for us peasants to become officers.
Social mobility has to move both ways because there isn't enough room or everyone at the top table.

Happy to be informed that I'm misinformed.

most Etonians parents whould have higher expectations for their children dont you think especialy after spending all that cash?

elf there have been numerous AVM in the RAF

AVM =?

I'm not disputing the fact that there is a [i]degree[/i] of meritocracy in the armed forces, I'm merely stating that the [i]majority[/i] of top officers are from pivileged backgrounds. As there are such people in most top jobs. Exceptions do not prove the rule. You can't tell me that the organisation of the armed forces is proportionate and representative of society overall. It's not. There are of course complex reasons for this, but the overall reason is that a class system exists which divides people and serves as a framework for discrimination. I accept that the armed forces have become more meritocratic than they were in the past.

The same outdated and unequal system exists in business, in Law, in all sorts of areas of public life. Things are changing, but all too slowly. Those who seek to preserve the Status Quo are hindering the natural development of society, to serve their own ends.

most Etonians parents whould have higher expectations for their children dont you think especialy after spending all that cash?

If expectations is all that is required, then why bother wasting all that money sending your son to Eton ?

I suppose you could send them for just a term though ....... just to prove that you expect a lot from them.

Elf

Have a look at this

http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/seniorcommanders.cfm

not many old etonians

Ernie

Do you think somebody who can spend 30K+ of taxed income would settle for their child fliping burgers in maccyDs.?

not many old etonians

Well we don't know what secondary school any of them went to, as it doesn't state such information. And the top bloke there is a university graduate, as are others. Other than that it gives no info as to their backgrounds. They could all have been to Eton for all we know.

I'm merely stating that the majority of top officers are from pivileged backgrounds.

Define "priveleged"? It's been demonstrated that the top ranks of the RAF didn't go to the famous public schools or Oxbridge. They almost certainly didn't know each other before they joined up. They've mostly got degrees because to be a star ranked officer, you have to be clever, ambitious, confident and articulate. People like that tend to go to uni.

Yes, it certainly helps to have been given a supportive upbringing, in which confidence has been developed and one has been pushed to achieve, whether at home or at school. This is surely not unique to the upper classes though? Also, there surely comes a point when you have to stand on your own feet and stop bleating about how rubbish your school was and how they're all out to get you.

There are of course complex reasons for this, but the overall reason is that a class system exists which divides people and serves as a framework for discrimination.

Moving away from the military now. The above quote makes the old boy network sound like some kind of conspiracy, rather than a large scale expression of the fact that people in positions of power (regardless of class) are more likely to appoint those they know, or failing that, have some common ground with. Human nature. So the pace of change is slow.

You don't find Old Etonians in the ranks regardless of how easy it might be for us peasants to become officers.

I suspect that's due to parental ambition. The only Etonian I've ever met was a scholarship boy!

AVM = Air Vice Marshal, 2* officer, Maj Gen equivalent

Elfinsafety - Member
Me and Ernie got called 'Middle Class' the other day.
I have been scrubbing myself with carbolic soap ever since....

Such a middle class comment 🙂

Also, there surely comes a point when you have to stand on your own feet and stop bleating about how rubbish your school was and how they're all out to get you.

And just who said that? All we ask for is a level playing feild.

how many did you read

Air Vice-Marshal B M North OBE MA RAF

Barry Mark North (Baz) was born on 13 September 1959 and educated at Carre’s Grammar School, Sleaford and at Trent Polytechnic, Nottingham, where he gained a Higher National Diploma in Business Studies;

Define "priveleged"? It's been demonstrated that the top ranks of the RAF didn't go to the famous public schools or Oxbridge.

Maybe, but they're not from a Hackney comprehensive, are they? And not likely to be, really, let's face it.

'Privileged' I'd say is coming from a background with sufficient wealth to enable fee-paying education.

Peter Wall, Chief of General Staff, British Army. Educated at public school and Sandhurst.

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Nick Parker; CinC Land Forces. Educated at public school and Sandhurst:

[img] [/img]

I'm sure there's loads more. I think my point is quite clear. If you can give me an example of a top officer who hasn't been to public school and University, and/or who has risen from the rank of Private to the top position, then fair enough. But I think it's fair enough to say that the whole system is weighted pretty heavily in favour of those who enjoy wealth and privilege to begin with.

Name the top serving officers of the British Military who rose up through the ranks from the very bottom. Go on.
Y'know, the Cheif Air Marshalls, the Brigadiers, the Admirals, the Commodores. That lot.

When these guys started their careers circa 25 years ago it may have been the case that only certain people could make it to the top.

Now 1/3 naval officers come from the rating cadre (NCO for any pongo speaking types).

Times are a'changing...

raf

both rose to the very top

Sir Michael Beetham joined as an airman was an LAC (private)
Sir Keith Williamson ex apprentice