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The way I understand it is that a troll is someone who deliberately bates people on the internet. I am actually expressing my opinion on this issue which may not be the same as yours. For your information I am actually a fairly happy person but I am sad that you feel the need to personally insult me.
adoption and we don't all rush to sort that issue because it is not a current media topic.
There's a shortage of and high demand for babies and very young children for adoption.
Whilst I applaud the efforts of individuals to want to do something, there are plenty of kids already in the UK that need foster care or adoption and we don't all rush to sort that issue because it is not a current media topic.
You see, it doesn't sound like you are 'applauding the efforts of individuals who want to do something', it sounds like you are engaging in some pretty low whataboutery to try and justify your own lack of compassion. Amazingly enough it's possible to care about more than one thing at the same time.
This is just my opinion and that doesn't make it any more or less valid than yours.
Yes it would be great if more people were willing to be foster carers or adopt - but grim as it may be sometimes generally speaking kids in the care system in this country are at least having their basic needs met: food, water, shelter, safety etc. You can't say the same for many of these refugees, which is why people appear to feel quite passionately about the issue.
Taking in, feeding, housing and clothing those fleeing from war, politics and famine is laudable and of course should be done.
But its throwing money at a symptom while ignoring the cause, which seems to be that the whole middle east has descended into new levels of barbarity and anarchy.
Leaving aside whose fault it is, what can be done to turn back into an area where one can live, work and bring up families in peace and moderate prosperity?
The area's population has increased while resources become more stretched. The area has been getting more and more arid since the climatic optimum due to over use of farm land and climatic change which man is now enhancing. So fund projects that will make a green revolution possible in the area and cut your carbon footprint.
Leaving aside whose fault it is, what can be done to turn back into an area where one can live, work and bring up families in peace and moderate prosperity?
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But its throwing money at a symptom while ignoring the cause, which seems to be that the whole middle east has descended into new levels of barbarity and anarchy.
It's not either/or - that's Cameron's big mistake. We can do all we can to help people now, fishing them out of the water and letting them into our country to build new lives. At the same time, we can ask what we can do to prevent such tragedies in the future.
Saying we shouldn't save lives now because we have to solve the Middle East's problems first is avoiding our human responsibility on an epic scale.
In the long run, what's the worst that can happen if we let in thousands of refugees? We let in 30,000 Ugandan Asians when Idi Amin expelled them, did that have a negative impact on the UK's way of life. Far from it.
But its throwing money at a symptom while ignoring the cause, which seems to be that the whole middle east has descended into new levels of barbarity and anarchy.
No one is saying you can't do both
Look at the picture of Homs up there ^^^
Do you really think people in that situation don't have legitimate reasons to flee, don't they need immediate help?
Yes, our government should engage in a long term plan to help the region (although their attempts at "help" so far seem to have failed) but that doesn't stop us extending help to people in genuine need right now.
If it had been a picture of a dead puppy on the news yesterday, instead of a little brown boy, the outcry would have seen the problem solved already.
I was going to buy a new lens for my camera this week. I really don't need it so the money I was going to spend went to Save The Children this morning. If it makes even one child's life a little more bearable it'll be worth it, but it's just nowhere near enough.
I have unfriended a couple of people this morning for posting that picture on FB unheralded. Its not that I don't care, I just don't really want to see pictures of dead children. Or perhaps I want a choice in whether I look at them. How desensitized are you people ?
Anyways, I have been thinking quite hard about offering my spare room as temporary accommodation to some refugees, for free. I guess the local council would be the place to make enquiries about that ?
I just don't really want to see pictures of dead children. Or perhaps I want a choice in whether I look at them. How desensitized are you people ?
It seemed to be on all the front pages of the newspapers in the newsagents today. I don't want to see pictures of dead children either, not many people do. Unfortunately in some countries people (and other children) are forced to see dead children for real - they are not pictures in newspapers, including countries which we have bombed.
I think it's the lack of reality, or even pictures of reality, which desensitizes people with regards to war. More graphic images is what is most likely to sensitize people imo.
The tragic picture of Aylan's lifeless body has certainly done that.
And sadly it is like the Roman Empire - only sustainable due to expansion. The pictures will just get more distressing to bait more clicks. I'm not playing.
OP, there are some maybe useful links/suggestions as to what you can do over on mumsnet
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_campaigns/2459825-Refugee-children
It feels odd swanning around Canary Wharf in a turmoil because the queue to Wasabi is a little long and I've made do with a curry from the office canteen. Elsewhere in Europe there might be a man desperately trying to stop his young child from drowning after their overcrowded boat into Europe capsized.
There needs to be a European wide joint effort to manage the refugees - the fact that there are people in Hungary desperately trying to get to Germany shows that these people aren't treated equally in all European member states.
I have unfriended a couple of people this morning for posting that picture on FB unheralded. Its not that I don't care, I just don't really want to see pictures of dead children. Or perhaps I want a choice in whether I look at them.
That is, in a nutshell, the problem that we have in the west.
Lady Anelay’s statement – “We understand that by withdrawing this rescue cover we will be leaving innocent children, women and men to drown who we would otherwise have saved. But eventually word will get around the war-torn communities of Syria and Libya and the other unstable nations of the region that we are indeed leaving innocent children, women and men to drown. And when it does, they will think twice about making the journey. And so eventually, over time, more lives will be saved.”
She didn't that is Dan Hodges's attempt to make a point paraphrasing what she said - the article in which he did it is [url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11192208/Drown-an-immigrant-to-save-an-immigrant-why-is-the-Government-borrowing-policy-from-the-BNP.html ]here[/url]
Yes peterfile, my repugnance at being forced looking at pictures of dead children leads directly to the bombing of innocent civilians in Syria. My objection is to the titillation and revenue generation. These were real people with real families.
Did you really think that the war in Syria was all made up until you opened your facebook feed this morning ??
Should I also be watching all the executions of gays on youtube - would that make me a better person too ? Would it also solve all the problems with ISIS - how has nobody cottoned on to that yet ??
Even the Guardian didn't show the kids face. Which was slightly better.
my repugnance at being forced looking at pictures of dead children .....
Well I said earlier many people have been forced to look at dead children as the direct result of the actions of our governments.
But fair enough, here's a picture of Aylan in happier times with his older brother Galip who also drowned.
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I have posted this in the other thread currently discussing similar things, I'll post it here too.
Anyone who genuinely thinks the tide is turning and compassion for fellow man in regards to the refugee scenario in Calais is coming to the fore should take a look at the utterly vitriolic hatred being spouted on the Facebook comments of this Justgiving page.
People are actually willing to put their names to these comments. The privileged scum that resides in this country is making me feel sick.
https://crowdfunding.justgiving.com/solidarity
Badly worded above on my behalf but the outright ignorant hatred of some of those comments has me waffling a bit.
Saw this earlier - lead in paraphrased
The photography expert Patricia Holland wrote about this in What Is A Child?: Popular Images of Childhood in the 1990s. She said the focus on kids in disaster or war zones was, weirdly, about making Westerners feel good:
‘As the children in the image reveal their vulnerability, we long to protect them and provide for their needs. Paradoxically, while we are moved by the image of the sorrowful child, we also welcome it, for it can arouse pleasurable emotions of tenderness.’
But fair enough, here's a picture of Aylan in happier times with his older brother Galip who also drowned.
I don't know if it's the point hels was making, but there appears to be different levels of respect being shown because they are random foreigners.
If those were pictures of a friend's son, people wouldn't be posting pictures of their dead offspring being picked up off the beach all over facebook. What makes it acceptable when you don't know them?
Yes peterfile, my repugnance at being forced looking at pictures of dead children leads directly to the bombing of innocent civilians in Syria. My objection is to the titillation and revenue generation. These were real people with real families.Did you really think that the war in Syria was all made up until you opened your facebook feed this morning ??
Should I also be watching all the executions of gays on youtube - would that make me a better person too ? Would it also solve all the problems with ISIS - how has nobody cottoned on to that yet ??
Even the Guardian didn't show the kids face. Which was slightly better.
Calm down, it wasn't a personal attack.
The point was that it's easy for us in the west to just "turn off" what we don't want to see.
For some people, not seeing it just means it's another story in the paper. I'm not an advocate for shock type media (i.e. this photo), but it's a poignant reminder that this is not just economic zone commuters we're talking about, it's not [i]herds[/i] of nameless and faceless migrants, it's real people and real kids like our own.
Sorry hels, I wasn't trying to suggest that was applicable to you.
Thanks Ian, that is kind of what I was trying to say.
With the added thought that the more pictures of dead children we see, the less we care about the dead children. Its cheap, and its exploitative, in a world where page views means money.
If those were pictures of a friend's son, people wouldn't be posting pictures of their dead offspring being picked up off the beach all over facebook. What makes it acceptable when you don't know them?
It's fairly normal for newspapers to publish pictures of corpses in war zones, certainly going back to at least the Vietnam War.
In fact up to that point the Vietnam War was the most photographed and filmed war in history. And it was precisely because people were receiving images on their TV screens and in their newspapers that the tide of public opinion turned against the war and eventually led to US withdrawal.
Without the power of photography and film the Vietnam War would remained much more remote from US public opinion.
Never underestimate the power of a photograph. This photograph taken after a US napalm attack in Vietnam helped to speed up the end of the war :
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I hope that the picture of Aylan's tragic lifeless body being washed up a beach helps to jolt some compassion in world leaders. The unprecedented coverage it has received not just on newspapers front pages but also on TV stations (I've never seen that before) suggests that others hope so too.
So mefty I am prepared to be corrected about the quote but what did Lady Anelay say the rationale for, and effect of, removing the maritime rescue was?
[url= http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldhansrd/text/141015w0001.htm ]Here you go[/url]
We do not support planned search and rescue operations in the Mediterranean. We believe that they create an unintended “pull factor”, encouraging more migrants to attempt the dangerous sea crossing and thereby leading to more tragic and unnecessary deaths. The Government believes the most effective way to prevent refugees and migrants attempting this dangerous crossing is to focus our attention on countries of origin and transit, as well as taking steps to fight the people smugglers who wilfully put lives at risk by packing migrants into unseaworthy boats.
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
Many bits of my American heritage bother me, but some bits the USA got absolutely, completely spot on. The UK as much as the USA is built on wave after wave of immigration, and both countries are all the better for it.
The UK as much as the USA is built on wave after wave of immigration, and both countries are all the better for it.
Every one of which was opposed by roughly the same bunch of Knuts.
We do not support planned search and rescue operations in the Mediterranean. We believe that they create an unintended “pull factor”, encouraging more migrants to attempt the dangerous sea crossing and thereby leading to more tragic and unnecessary deaths. The Government believes the most effective way to prevent refugees and migrants attempting this dangerous crossing is to focus our attention on countries of origin and transit, as well as taking steps to fight the people smugglers who wilfully put lives at risk by packing migrants into unseaworthy boats.
Given the scale of this whole thing - the biggest movement of people since World War 2 - that statement looks more and more ridiculous by the day
Despite opposing views on this, I personally believe that this is where the worlds media play a vital role in reminding us of our humanity, of the core morals that should be instilled in every living person lucky enough to be born into this world - those traits of compassion, responsibility and love.
The world is quite frankly impotent at acting on anything that will be classed as potentially "politically damaging" or controversial. Immigration is the biggest divisive issue in all western nations with varying views from "open the doors to all of gods children" to "I'm all right Jack and don't want anyone messing with my status quo".
As per my first sentence, capturing raw, devastating, heart-breaking images like that of this young boy are important and should not be censored. We should not allow ourselves to be wrapped in a warm blinkered blanket away from desperate humanitarian issues which are quite literally on our doorstep.
Why are our lives more important than those people fleeing Syria? Because we were fortunate to be born in the countries we live? Does that give us a privilege in the eyes of what is right and wrong to accept that it is inevitable, not our problem and we need to fix the problems in our own country first?
Do we really have problems on this scale? In the UK there are estimated to be around 185,000 homeless people of which almost 8000 at one point during the course of the last year slept rough on the streets for at least 1 night. This is an issue, yes. It needs to be addressed, yes. But, they have access to healthcare, food, charity, shelter, financial assistance. They are not at risk of having their children gunned down in the streets or wifes and daughters taken away to be used as sex slaves.
11 million people have left Syria since the crisis, 50% of whom are unaccounted for, either dead or not registered for asylum / support etc.
What do you think drives a mother and father to leave their entire world, family, home, friends and everything they have ever owned, sell their entire belongings, give the proceeds to people they can't trust to travel to somewhere where as a minimum they can be safe. What do you think drives them to make the risk judgment to put their own blood onto flimsy rafts knowing there is a high likelihood they will drown?
Because the alternative is orders of magnitude worse.
I don't expect many to share my views, I won't be concentrating anymore to this conversation but what I want to express is that yes we do need vivid images of these atrocities. Why? To remind us we are human. To remind us of our moral core believes that are gradually being eroded.
Living the lives we do is not a right, it's a privilege.
I really dont know what to say or comment on a solution but what i do know is that the world is now a hate filled place fueled by greed/money and religeous hatred. I really feel for the unfortunate victims.
the world is now a hate filled place fueled by greed/money and religeous hatred.
I think it always has been, it's just that nowadays it's easier for people to see it.
I also think it's easier for the corrupted to get away with it to the extent they no longer feel the need to hide the fact.
Unfortunately with an increasing world population, higher levels of inequality and diminishing natural resources, it's not going to get better anytime soon.
Either no government has the balls to stand up to root source of the problem in the middle east or thay think the problem will be solved by the locals just wiping each other off the face of the earth. it won't end I'm afraid, European and USA policy makers must be on holiday.
Hungry looks awful people being shipped off to encampments and finger printed. Mass migration always leads too right wing movements growing sadly it's human nature of the lowest level.
When there are nutbars running around not just killing but removing every trace your historical presence I guess a dingy ride to lesbos seems like better odds.
It's a tragic mess that will shape the region for years to come, there was a German minster on the radio last week suggesting dialog with IS or what ever they arecalled this week.
The problem with humanity is that we're very inconsistent with when we decide to apply it. Where was our humanity when we saw the horrific images in the media when Assad was gassing children? We saw them, all were horrified by them and decided that we would do nothing. This situation was predicted back then, though not the sheer scale that we're seeing.
I think that we were always going to contributed our fair share to dealing with the refugees, but as is the political way in Europe there has to be some political posturing to be done first - a multinational agreement has to be struck. But dealing with the refugees is only one half of the problem. What they really want is for us (i.e. the west) to intervene and sort out the root cause - after all it is basically our fault as we created the modern Middle East when we carved up the region after the war and put in power those that ultimately turned out to be the brutal dictators we have been so keen to de-throne over recent decades...Assad included. We need to decide the best way to intervene and just get on with it. One thing is for sure, the solution is going to be long term - i.e. several generations long.
In fact up to that point the Vietnam War was the most photographed and filmed war in history. And it was precisely because people were receiving images on their TV screens and in their newspapers that the tide of public opinion turned against the war and eventually led to US withdrawalFantastic radio program about that very photo on radio 4 last week highly recommend. The Girl in the Picture. She talks to a young boy who suffered in the first gulf war
The problem with humanity is that we're very inconsistent with when we decide to apply it. Where was our humanity when we saw the horrific images in the media when Assad was gassing children? We saw them, all were horrified by them and decided that we would do nothing.
We are indeed. Thousands turn out after Charlie Hebdo (spouting nonsense about freedom of speech) while happily ignoring the hundreds of innocent people killed by Boko Haram at the same time. Great (pardon the choice of word) if an appalling picture proves to be the needed catalyst for proper action, but doesn't take away the collective shame that equally awful suffering has been going on without comment or reaction for ages. Inconsistent and highly selective.
Good for Merkel for reacting but the rest of the political noise is pretty nauseating - there is a scale and speed of movement of people that has overwhelmed politicians. They are not that competent at the best of times, but a bit unrealistic to expect fast and simple solutions to an awful situation.
Mefty so given we have done none of the "better focus" stuff our government's policy has been just to withdraw the maritime resuce in the hope that dead bodies in the sea will reduce the " pull factor."
You will find that it was a general EU policy, you will also find the rescue missions stopped for a few days only before the policy was reversed.
scandal42 - Member
The privileged scum that resides in this country is making me feel sick.
Crikey ... now everyone is privileged scum. 😯
See deep down I have always been right when I refer to mankind (male and female) as zombie maggot and now you just proved my point.
Privileged scum = ZM? Yes?
Btw are your nostrils flaring when you called them privileged scum? 😮
if as many suggest, this conflict was caused, or at least significantly exasperated by a climate change event then one of the reasons we need to act and act quickly is that this is likely to be a first wave of mass migration as the world around us changes
jonah tonto - Memberif as many suggest, this conflict was caused, or at least significantly exasperated by a climate change event then one of the reasons we need to act and act quickly is that this is likely to be a first wave of mass migration as the world around us changes
😯 What climate change? You really lost me on that now ...
In the other thread you said the cause was due to UK/West/we/whoever bombing all the civilians ... make up your mind.
I have not posted a reply because I doubt UK has any B-52s (not the band) to carpet bomb the entire country.
Which side did they bombed anyway? Assad or civilian or ISIS etc? 😮
no chewkw i didnt i said that the uk arms manufacturing industry have been arming multiple sides.
but britsh pilots have been bombing in syria as google will explain to you im sure
if you dont want to read a link i put up please just ignore everything i post. it really will be fine with me
Jonah, British pilots attached to the US airforce have attacked Daesh targets, along with a handful of Dedicated strikes from RAF jets.
The Coalition government gave authorisation for the financing for arms sales to some of the groups who have now aligned themselves and become Daesh.
jonah tonto - Memberno chewkw i didnt i said that the uk arms manufacturing industry have been arming multiple sides.
but britsh pilots have been bombing in syria as google will explain to you im sure
if you dont want to read a link i put up please just ignore everything i post. it really will be fine with me
hmmm ... I remember everyone was trying to get rid of Assad ...
Mefty I probably got the wrong answer but we suspended involvement in November 2014 since when Bulwark did 8 weeks before being replaced by Enterprise which didn't do much . The Government have not committed to anything aproching the scale of our or Europes pre November operations. Not exactly a few days before reversal.
In answer to the what you can do question lots of local groups are trying to do things in Leeds " no borders " will take whatever you can give to Calais eg old unused camping stuff or food . what is not of use they divert to charity shops. There are a number of e- petitions to sign sufficient numbers force a parliamentary debate. Write to your MP . Given the mass of empty properties in this country there is no reason to offer a bedroom.
Odd how the Germans can do so much but Cameron offers nothing . His argument appears to be the fire brigade should not try to rescue the people trapped in a burning building but solely focus on putting the fire out.