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Our neighbour is doing an attic conversion and has got a planning application in. We’re fine with that, but it also involves putting together a single bedroom and living/dining room into a single room. At the moment the single bedroom is against our bedroom wall and even with an extra wall between us we can hear her screaming at her kids (it’s a daily occurrence) and the kids kicking off. We’d like her to put up some soundproofing, possibly in the form of soundproof wallpaper liner like this-
https://www.gowallpaper.co.uk/saarpor-sound-proof-insulating-liner.html
I had a chat with her about it, under the guise of having a spiral staircase next to our heads in bed will be noisy, and she seemed pretty amenable, and my wife sent her a link to that product and she only said “I’ll bear it in mind”. But what we’d really like, before we submit a planning comment, is to have some kind of formal agreement from her that she’ll install it. We’ve not told her this yet but if she gives us that we’ll put in a supporting comment on the application, and if not we’ll object. I appreciate that people who object to planning permissions never get what they want but it’s the only real tool we’ve got.
Has anyone had experience of anything like this and what shape the formal agreement would take? And is there a way to make sure if the agreement is breached there’s some comeback that means the soundproofing has to be installed retrospectively? And is it worth speaking the the Environmetal Health department to see if they're even a consultee on this sort of thing, and if they are if they can put a condition on it? It sounds unlikely to me that they would for a job like this.
Is the loft conversion not a permitted development anyway? Why does it need planning permission?
It's a conservation area.
It’s a conservation area.
I doubt internal factors will be a big concern for the planners then.
If their proposed soundproofing meets the Building regs requirements, planners aren't going to give two hoots.
Controvertial solutions could be - a). offer to pay for the cost of enhancing the sound proofing. b). add sound proofing on your side.
EH are not consulted on planning applications for things like this. They would get involved if the noise is so bad that it is a nuisance (but unless she's yelling at 3am its probably not going to meet their threshold).
An issue with things like noisy neighbours, is that it's very difficult to ascertain what constitutes a 'nuisance', and how someone might be liable for causing that. I think in new builds, there may be certain requirements regarding sound insulation, but in an older property, I don't know how this applies. In order to have any action taken, or to force someone to make any changes/works to rectify the issue, you need evidence that the noise is of an 'excessive' level, and proof that it is negatively affecting your life. So, someone doing drilling at 3am is 'unreasonable', but screaming kids in daytime probably won't cut it. As someone who has been on both sides of (minor) disputes over noise, I'd say that unless you want to enter a whole world of pain, it's probably better to suck it up and seek your own noise reduction solutions, than trying to ensure someone else does. It's far, far easier and less stressful. A friend of ours has a similar issue with a very noisy family beneath her; they are nice enough people just noisy. It's bad for her mental health though. but the simple steps she could take (fitting carpets and sound insulation etc), she won't take. Stupid. We have a neighbour who moans a bit about our music, but having been in her place to hear how 'loud' it actually is, it's really not at all 'offensive', just about audible, and nowhere near the level of outside sounds including birdsong, traffic noise, even people outside talking. And the irony is that we can hear her music occasionally, but it's never something that bothers us. She's just a bit of a princess. So I've done nothing about it. 😀 If you live in close proximity to others, you have to expect a bit of noise. That's life.
If it bothers you that much, I don't get why you don't put soundproofing up on your side.
I mean, I appreciate that it's not you being noisy and so you shouldn't have to, but it's a thing that's entirely within your control.
How did you decide that the best solution was to pursue an enforceable agreement and secretly have that as a condition for [pointlessly?] supporting/objecting to the planning application?
That's a pretty niche approach to this, and you're asking for advice only on the very last bit of your plan. That takes for granted that it's a good plan. But is it?
I think your question is really - "my neighbour is converting their loft, what's the best way to get them to soundproof it?". The answer to that almost certainly has no connection to planning permission or enforceable agreements.
But you aren't in a strong position. Take that into account, and plan from there. Planning permission is unlikely to turn on your noise concerns. If you want an enforceable agreement, the conventional way to secure one (about anything) is to pay for it. If you want soundproofing, the conventional place to put it is on your side of the wall.
I'm not being totally negative: good neighbourly relations could sort this out, and it may well be that your neighbour is e.g. amenable to you paying for extra effort on their side of the wall during the build. But "playing the planning system" isn't your real concern. Persuading them to soundproof is. I'd start again, from there.
The only way you retain control in this is to place the sound proofing on your side. That way you get to spec it, install it and take responsibility for it.
If their proposed soundproofing meets the Building regs requirements, planners aren’t going to give two hoots.
The wall unless being rebuilt or having substantial works done on it won't need to meet current building regs.
Noise could be a material consideration in a planning application for sure but only for things like takeaways, pubs, nightclubs, etc.
My guess is that you won't be able to object to an internal wall being removed in a residential property on a tenuous basis that it will result in unreasonable noise levels.
Effective soundproofing is also heavy and there are solutions for solid walls but need to make sure the wall can bear the extra load.
Agree with the above, you don't have much leverage and even if she agreed but then reneged there could be issues with enforceability, let alone the costs in trying to do so.
I'd wallpaper your side, tho I do wonder how much difference some wallpaper would make over a solid wall (without having looked into that at all).
I did think the planners wouldn't be arsed about anything other than the skylights that are going in.
I am a bit peeved at having to pay someone who screams at their children everyday to make our life peaceful but if that's what it takes I'd suck it up.
We won't soundproof our side unless it's a real problem later - we put fancy pants wallpaper on that wall when we moved in two years ago and decorated the whole room to match. Compared to paying her to put up some wallpaper while the whole room's being redone it seems like we'd be losing out.
I'm surprised there's not a system for filling an old wall with soundproofing foam or something from the top of the wall when they have the loft floor up- that'd be perfect but I can't seem to find something that works like that.
Can't see that stuff you've linked to being too effective either, it would probably work quite well for normal conversation levels but someone screaming at their kid the other side of the party wall is likely to still be pretty audible.
My first house was mid terrace and just a breeze block wall, sound insulation was terrible. I got loads of people to look at it, including something like that link. In the end I got a builder to put up a stud wall, packed with insulation, no bridges so effectively floating. I think he put on double plaster board, plastered over.
It worked, I did both sides. Sadly I lost a bit of space but the noise drove me mad.
Always look at build quality now, never had a noise issue since.
I’m surprised there’s not a system for filling an old wall with soundproofing foam or something from the top of the wall when they have the loft floor up- that’d be perfect but I can’t seem to find something that works like that.
my mate spent a load of money on something similar between his flat and the one above. It made negligable difference. I also suspect the current wall is a solid,single row of bricks with no void, so I'd be surprised if there's any gap to put stuff into
I sleep with earplugs in which is an old habit from my previous career.
That's fortunate because I live in an old terrace and the party wall transmits a lot of noise.
I also think the floor joists run between the party walls and are responsible for a lot of transfer noise too. Normally floor joists run front to back.
Probably already been said, but removing an internal wall does not need planning consent so your comments regarding noise would be pointless.
If they are doing works to the dividing wall would there not have to be a party wall agreement drawn up ? Could that include some measures? Or as above do your own side anyway
In the end I got a builder to put up a stud wall, packed with insulation, no bridges so effectively floating.
When I lived in a back to back house I looked into soundproofing as the noise between was terrible. The solution was a system like that described above. The key is not having a bridge to transmit the vibrations. Fortunately the noisy ****ers moved and so did I shortly after, so I never went through with it.
I doubt wallpaper will do anything, no matter how fancy.
Party wall agreement would be the first thing I'd think of, as jag61 says above. Presumably there'll be steels put into the wall to support the conversion, which will necessitate an agreement.
@munrobiker that wallpaper will have zero effect. I used to test the sound insulation of all types of properties for a living. I've probably tested 1000s of partitions (walls and floors).
A rule of thumb is that if you want to increase the sound insulation of a wall by 6dB then you have to double its mass. So a double brick wall becomes a quadruple brick wall. The way around this is to build a separate wall (like a stud wall) or add mass that's decoupled (like plasterboard on resilient bars). Also in older properties, the partition walls can have gaps and holes. So the first thing to do is strip it back to bare brick and cover it in a parge coat to seal it up.
cynic-al
even if she agreed but then reneged there could be issues with enforceability, let alone the costs in trying to do so.
I disagree - if it's a party wall it would be pretty easy to draw up an agreement over the precise specification to the works, which would be enforceable by way of an Award if necessary.
The hard part is getting them to agree to the specification in the first place. I don't think Building Regs would necessarily help you as the soundproofing requirements in Part E relate to new builds or a material change of use, not works done in existing residential properties.