I love how this had become a north Vs South thing somehow
Yep we’ve had to drag another company’s Transit Connect out after it got stuck on site at a Solar battery installation. Very firmly in a flat bit of the country.
And I've had to dig out 4*4s driven onto sites by people with no training or aptitude and wholely unsuitable tires.
A van on all terrain tires would have been better than the nonsense that half these "4*4"s" cruise around on.
We do see a lot of berlingo treks on sites round here now.
A van on all terrain tires would have been better than the nonsense that half these “4*4″s” cruise around on
Yeah makes sense, I’m in about a small a van as possible for what I need, (LWB Connect) because we do a lot of London work, even a Custom is annoyingly big. I don’t imagine it’s a lot of fun parking a double cab Ranger in central London, or anywhere a bit busy.
I don’t get the aspiration to a lifestyle Van or pickup. Personally I’d rather not be in one.
The lads used to get there 2wd vans in some amazing places off road, if it was a lease or company van it would not be particularly well looked after!
@jamesoz, New one parks itself. Very, very rarely have an issue. Been driving a Ranger for work since 2k.
Its not like anyone working for the government ever used a crew cab pickup for actual work though, obviously.
I don't know the EA rules on vehicle use but i'd be amazed if their staff are permitted to use them for SDP use. Anyone affected will have that choice too. Grumbling that you could have a nicer car for the same BIK, misses the point that if you are in a decision making position you can do exactly that, and if you are not then you are no worse off than ordinary employees who don't get the luxury of having company funded personal wheels of any shape.
I said earlier in the thread - watch prices sky rocket until July.
Just browsing a few particular new Ford Rangers I was looking at on Autotrader and they have gone up £2-4k this week
I can remember when the rules changed back in the day to make these type of vehicle favourable for business purposes. They went from being unpopular to very popular over night.
My mate was a car sales man at the time and they even opened a whole new dealership just to sell them as they knew the tax dodge would make them popular.
Around our way farmers drive very knackered versions of these cars - but I have never seen a farmer in a new one. The new ones all appear to be driven by younger sole trader type men who have clearly use it more for family and 'lifestyle' duties than a need for work. They also tend to be driven quite aggressively too.
New tax has been scrapped / postponed already - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/update-on-hmrc-double-cab-pick-up-guidance.
I did write to my MP about it but I doubt that was a contributing factor!
New tax has been scrapped / postponed already
Blimey, that was a quick U-turn , have I missed something and Kier Starmer is in charge ?? 😉
I imagine it went along the lines of taxing trade users of crew cab vehicles more heavily will upset the 5 people who might vote Conservative, or it was pointed out that fewer seats in the commercial vehicle means potentially more vehicles driving to site. See plenty of crew cab vans that are full of workers, more so than pickups if I’m honest.
See plenty of crew cab vans that are full of workers, more so than pickups if I’m honest.
100% this. Try stuffing 5 hairy arsed , sweaty blokes into a pickup . 4 is doable, 5 is uncomfortable for anything longer than 10 minutes. Despite their size, they are pretty small in the back.
I can hear the PT's collectively grunting in relief from here .
I imagine it went along the lines of taxing trade users of crew cab vehicles more heavily will upset the 5 people who might vote Conservative
^^ this
Think about the typical thick-necked angry cyclist-hating possessive tax-avoiding aggressive ill-educated racist tailgating backwards Brexity person who is typically behind the wheel of one of these things and you've got your typical 2023 Tory target voter.
There's certainly a lot of people (including on this thread) who need these.
But it's also undeniable that there's a lot who don't yet are perversely incentivised by the tax rules to have them as company cars. What do we do about this?
But it’s also undeniable that there’s a lot who don’t yet are perversely incentivised by the tax rules to have them as company cars. What do we do about this?
The proposed rules were perfectly fine. If you just use it as a work tool then there's no BIK, and that would include taking staff to sites.
SL2000 - why does anything need to be done about it, why is it a problem?
Plenty will be driving around in fully loaded VW Transporters with a row of seats, the closest they get to commercial use is carrying bikes to the carpark at the weekend, shall we do something about this too?
I don't get the advantages of such tax savings myself but don't really care that others do, the environmental or similar issue is a completely different discussion entirely.
I don't even see how this would have increased HMRC take overall as it would lead to a huge reduction in pickup sales and ultimately less / none being used in this manner, so either way no additional tax.
But it’s also undeniable that there’s a lot who don’t yet are perversely incentivised by the tax rules to have them as company cars. What do we do about this?
Just insist that they have company sign writing on the sides and back taking up a minimum area.
Plenty will be driving around in fully loaded VW Transporters with a row of seats, the closest they get to commercial use is carrying bikes to the carpark at the weekend, shall we do something about this too?
Yes, if you're going to put a £40k vehicle through the books to make it cheap on a BIK basis, it should pay the same BIK as a £40k car.
the environmental or similar issue is a completely different discussion entirely.
Which would be solved by this. Currently as evidenced in this thread you can get a pickup for less BIK than a car, and then begrudge that the only thing cheaper to run is your managers Tesla. It's an incentive to spend your car allowance on a ridiculous vehicle.
I don’t even see how this would have increased HMRC take overall as it would lead to a huge reduction in pickup sales and ultimately less / none being used in this manner, so either way no additional tax.
Even if it didn't, the 2nd point would be achieved.
The issue is that 25 years ago a pickup (or a van) was awful, no on in their right mind drove a Transit or a Ranger as their preferred choice and only ageing hippies drove T25's. So charging BIK at the value of the vehicle was pointless, the average employee got less benefit from having it than they would a much cheaper car. So a flat rate was devised to reflect this where HMRC decided the "benefit" of a commercial vehicle was (IIRC) £6k/year not the £40k it cost to buy.
These days you can easily spec a pickup (or a T6) to cost considerably more than A Range Rover Evoque, and if it's a "company car" you only pay £60 tax each month on it. Whereas an Evoque is ~£260.
None of this affects people owning them privately (having paid income tax already), or using them purely for work (not a benefit). It's just 'income tax' on a part of your remuneration package that isn't cash. In the same way I pay income tax on my employers health insurance. They declare it was worth £700/year, and I pay ~20% of that as income tax.
The issue is that 25 years ago a pickup (or a van) was awful, no on in their right mind drove a Transit or a Ranger as their preferred choice and only ageing hippies drove T25’s. So charging BIK at the value of the vehicle was pointless, the average employee got less benefit from having it than they would a much cheaper car. So a flat rate was devised to reflect this where HMRC decided the “benefit” of a commercial vehicle was (IIRC) £6k/year not the £40k it cost to buy.
These days you can easily spec a pickup (or a T6) to cost considerably more than A Range Rover Evoque, and if it’s a “company car” you only pay £60 tax each month on it. Whereas an Evoque is ~£260.
Newsflash! Commercials are still crap compared to cars. Yes you can spec a van to the hilt, my works Connect was more than a car too. I still don’t want to be in it. Same goes for a posh Custom or T6.
I’d rather drive our 20 year old Astra and do.
If you don’t want to Pay BIK you have to store the thing and your own car if you need a car.
Sure you could leave it at the depot/yard/office and possibly travel further to pick up the vehicle than you would to the job.
Out of interest, what’s the V5C class for a Ford Ranger Wildtrak or similar? Surely if it’s a commercial vehicle, then that’s what the V5 should say, and then van speed limits apply?
It’s also interesting how people know that all these vans/pickups at trail centres are on the company. Most people I know with flashy crew cabs are privately owned.
https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-advice/165065/double-cab-pickup-tax-benefits-explained has the BiK for a WildTrak with what would have changed...
As an example, let’s look at a new Ford Ranger WildTrak with a 3.0-litre diesel engine and a P11D value of £54,759. Under the old system, the BiK value of the Ranger would be the flat £3,960, and result in a yearly tax bill of £792 for 20% taxpayers and £1,584 for 40% taxpayers.
Applying the new system, the Ford Ranger’s P11D value is multiplied by its BiK rate. With CO2 emissions of 264g/km, the Ranger falls into the highest BiK rate bracket, at 37%. Multiplied by £54,759, we’re left with a BiK value of £20,261. This is then taxed according to your tax bracket, resulting in a yearly tax bill of £4,052 for 20% taxpayers and £8,104 for 40% taxpayers.
Out of interest, what’s the V5C class for a Ford Ranger Wildtrak or similar? Surely if it’s a commercial vehicle, then that’s what the V5 should say, and then van speed limits apply?
The Wildtak dualcab definitely has the lower van speed limits
I wonder how many people driving them as cars know that?
Taking into account purely the savings in tax - those that feel this is a problem that needs to be solved seem to have this opinion purely because they can’t / don’t want to access the ‘benefit’ themselves - I can’t / don’t so why should they.
I couldn’t care less if someone drives a pickup or van to save personal BIK, the vehicle still gets bought and put into the market, so lots of jobs for people involved in the process and tax to pay on the sale and if not electric cars currently have almost the same BIK avoidance, so I really don’t see the issue.
As above too, they may be big / flashy but they are shite to drive.
@crankrider It really isn’t that - my issue with them is that they’re environmentally worse than equivalent cars, take up vast amounts of space, and are demonstrably more dangerous for vulnerable road users.
Fine if anyone genuinely needs one for work…
On a 40 mile trip round the M25 the other morning, I bothered to count pickups. There were 6 on my journey, 3 of them were very definitely hard working vehicles. There were also absolutely loads of SUVS.
ratherbeintobago - Do you share the same opinion about all of the pimped out 'day vans', Transporters etc too? - They will be a similar weight and size and only marginally better on fuel as they run similar 2.0 diesel engines in current models.
I agree the size of them is ridiculous as is the weight but lets be realistic, the gap between a modern pickup and the modern SUV that is on the drive of the majority of young families in terms of emissions will be minimal.
If we really want to be 'fair' and offer the best environment for other road users & pedestrians then cars should be limited in terms of size and weight and lets take on your suggestion that Vans and pickups should be reserved for work use only and entirely, but I am really not sure how that makes them less dangerous, they are still there, would it just be the slightly fewer number?
I wonder how many people driving them as cars know that?
Have you seen the speed people drive vans on dual carriageways ?
A lot are unaware / ignorant of the lower speed limits.
@crankrider Yes I have a problem with all big cars (and cars in general to be fair).
The issue here is that company car tax should be designed to incentivise using a smaller / more efficient car. However there's a loophole that sees luxury pick ups taxed at a lower rate designed to apply to utilitarian vans and trucks.
So you pay less tax on a £55000 ford ranger than a £20000 VW polo. That needs to be fixed.
@crankrider There’s a certain amount of (granted, US) evidence that pickups being used as car substitutes has led to a design trend of higher, more aggressive fronts, which are less safe from both a visibility and collision POV.
Difference with vans is that they generally aren’t, as they’re mostly bought as work vehicles, pumped out kombis aside.
If people aren’t buying pickups as essentially fashion items…
@ratherbeintobago - Surely the front of the average van is as high and 'aggressive' as a pickup is it not? -
And while I agree most vans are bought for work purposes there are many more on the road than pickups and there is an absolutely huge number of vans being used for daily travel and 'extreme dad' activities, I would imagine far more vans on the road are being used for this purpose but they don't get the heat as they are a big part of the mtb / outdoor scene.
Go to any trail carpark and its absolutely full of vans, not pickups - Stop one then surely stop the other, nobody should be able to have a BIK reduced van either?
@sl2000 - Yes, I am well aware of the reduction in BIK that you class as a 'loophole' - I just don't agree that its a matter that needs fixing in any way, as I say they will all be electric in a few years time and they are actually on average narrower than a modern SUV which as I mentioned before is on the drive of every middle class young family.
It’s also interesting how people know that all these vans/pickups at trail centres are on the company. Most people I know with flashy crew cabs are privately owned.
Which is irrelevant to this thread, they've paid their income tax and until the country has a sensible discussion over what "car" ownership has morphed into then it's a democracy and there's nothing (other than weight limits on some more interesting to get to places) to stop them.
hose that feel this is a problem that needs to be solved seem to have this opinion purely because they can’t / don’t want to access the ‘benefit’ themselves – I can’t / don’t so why should they.
So why should anyone pay any tax?
Should we just tear up the P11d and give everyone a company credit card, as long as you've not been paid any money it's not taxable right?
@thisisnotaspoon - They are paying tax, its just a fixed rate because its a commercial vehicle. This isn't the same as using a company credit card to buy yourself something, the company pays for the vehicle, the driver doesn't own it they just get use of it.
It would be interesting to know how many on here and in the 'EV' thread are using them as company cars and paying almost zero BIK - do you feel the same way about electric vehicles, how about Transporters or similar? Surely you must?
Which is irrelevant to this thread
And yet:-
I’ve yet to see an SSE Hilux parked up at Swinley with a Dakine tailgate protector. But you do see a lot of Ford Rangers which have clearly never seen a days work in their pampered life
do you feel the same way about electric vehicles
The point of EV BIK rules was to encourage people to switch. There’s a massive CO2/mile difference between eg. a Tesla 3 (picking a zero rated EV at random) and a Ranger Wildtrak, so no, I don’t.
Do I feel there’s any need for people to be driving round a town in a colossal i7? Also no, but that’s a different question to the one here about closing a tax loophole which encourages less safe and more polluting commercial vehicles to be used as cars.
Surely the front of the average van is as high and ‘aggressive’ as a pickup is it not?
Without getting the tape measure out, there’s a much steeper slope on the shorter bonnet of that Transit, so for sight-lines at least it’s better than a tall, long and flat bonnet.
@ratherbeintobago - Ah so a 'tax loophole' is acceptable if it fits your personal criteria then, got it.
The road tax is absolutely huge on a vehicle like the Ranger btw, and it remains to be seen what the overall vehicle C02/mile will actually be with all things considered, less than a Tesla 3, probably - less than a 2.5T electric Mercedes SUV, you tell me?
How will you feel about electric pickup's then and what about the Transporters?
And no, I am not a climate denying idiot - I have just received my first EV, solar install this year at home, I just smell hypocrisy here.
Ah come on, many vans have entirely flat fronts, our works Trafic is like a slab.
I don’t have an EV, or a company car. So far as I know, the EV BIK rules are temporary to encourage uptake of less polluting vehicles. Not sure why that’s a problem? The specific issue here is BIK rules on DC pickups encouraging the opposite.
I don’t think the CO2 per mile of any EV is going to be more than a DC 4x4 pickup but happy to be corrected if anyone has numbers?
@ratherbeintobago - The BIK for EV's will only be 3% still in 2025-2026 and was zero up until a year or so ago, so your company car owner / director could happily employ the 'loophole' to obtain a luxury 2T EV SUV and drive it paying zero BIK (so less than the fixed commercial BIK paid on a pickup truck)
Do you really think a 2T luxury SUV that utterly guzzles electricity and used a phenomenal amount of resources in its production will really gave a considerably less CO2/mile than a 'normal' petrol car? I doubt it.
I am sure the BIK for EV's will rise, but as its only company car owners that are using them in reality it's not coming soon.
So again ill ask - how will you feel when pickups become electric? and how do you feel about the commercial vans all of us bikers drive around in daily, or are you one of the van drivers?
the commercial vans all of us bikers drive around in daily
I thought we all had Octavia estates?
I’ll be happier when pickups are electric, certainly.
do you feel the same way about electric vehicles, how about Transporters or similar? Surely you must?
I know you think you're trying to be clever with that straw man.
But yes.
**** em.
The worlds going to hell in a handcart, politicians are fiddling while it burns and people are pouring petrol on the flames whilst saying "but what can I do"? Cities have become a nightmare due to traffic. And country roads are off limits when even people on this cycling forum say they won't ride a road bike anymore.
So yes, they're the problem, those people who have a Raptor or a T6 with a Dubbfest sticker on the tailgate as a replacement for a personality.
And if one small step towards correcting that is to stop subsidizing commercial vehicles, then I'm all for it.
@thisisnotaspoon - Very emotive, unfortunately though probably true - And yes, we are all the baddies, and the bike scene is full of hypocritical bullshit, this discussion a huge example of people splitting hairs.
And I also agree - either remove the BIK 'loophole' for all commercial, vans included or none, but lets also remove the loophole for luxury EV's while we are at it too?
@ratherbeintobago - you do drive a van, dont you?
Nope
Maybe the tax on posh commercials would need to be claimed back with proof of actual use. Would create a few extra jobs.
