The scheme applies to everyone, and all vehicles, so if you have a choice of a diesel golf or an id3, the latter will cost you less even if the list price is higher. It’s nothing to do with management
Actually what I meant was, a commercial lumped into car tax that the employee has no choice in, will mean they pay more BIK if they want private use than one who has a choice of an electric car?
Can’t stand pickups myself but am aware most commercials are not chosen by the employee.
All the self-employed trades I’ve ever used have arrived in Vivarros, T5s and connect type vans. Not one has a crew-cab as they are not fit for trade use, too low a payload, insecure rear deck area and no privacy for tool storage.
Payload is similar for a pickup to a standard size van, but the other points apply. Depends what you're doing and where you are. Round here pickup usage is high, its probably 1/50 of total vehicles, increasing to 1/20 in the more rural spots. Its as much about the towing and 4x4 capabilities as anything else round here (Rural county Durham). That said, of the 7 people I know with pickups, 1 is a single cab, 2 are definitely personally owned not via a company, 2 are farmers, no idea on how they're owned or whether this ruling will effect them, 1 works for Nissan so almost certainly isn't falling under this ruling, which leaves 1 probably via their company, but to be fair, he does use it for work daily.
What will likely happen is just like our neighbours on our trading estate you end up with a Van and an EV per person, so even less tax being paid to HMRC overall.
My default assumption is that they have always been a tax dodge. Why a businessman needs to put a huge new bling pickup through the books for no business reason is beyond me. Proper van or liveried pickup is a tool for a job. But the ones trying to kill me aren’t.
Proper van or liveried pickup is a tool for a job
Can't have my pickup (when I own one) liveried on main contractor sites. It is fully chapter 8 stickered up usually though
Can’t have my pickup (when I own one) liveried on main contractor sites. It is fully chapter 8 stickered up usually though
None of our vehicles are sign written. Compressed gas sticker and hi viz at the most.
We did run a pickup for a bit, but it was a 51 plate L200 that looked like it should have an AA gun on the back with some insurgents hanging off it.
It was horrible to drive, I can only assume new ones are significantly better.
We did run a pickup for a bit, but it was a 51 plate L200
They are horrific things. Others are much better
It won't change much TBH. It certainly won't raise much tax in the whole scheme of things.
Some company directors will pay themselves what they need to to cover the BIK or decide to drive a Range Rover or G Wagon of some sort, unlikely to be an EV as there aren't any or if they want a pickup they will get a Raptor which is classed as a car already as it doesn't meet the VAT/commercial requirements as it carries less than a tonne. It isn't likely to stop people driving large vehicles if that is what some are hoping. I think it will mean more vehicles will be built. A bit like the scrappage scheme.. Which was a disaster.
If you are thinking "Go EV" have a look at Harry's Garage on YT, he has gone from Hybrid and EV back to Diesel and explains quite well why on his channel.
If you are thinking “Go EV” have a look at Harry’s Garage on YT, he has gone from Hybrid and EV back to Diesel and explains quite well why on his channel.
You know what's more ecologically sound than buying either a hybrid a diesel, and an EV in quick succession?
Not buying a car, that's better for everyone.
(preferably at all, 2nd preference just not replacing one you already have every time you feel like it)
But the taxman is going to make me poorer if I keep the vehicle I have and I need to travel for various reasons for work and pleasure.. I'm sure the government and places like Bike Park Wales would like me to be able to visit and spend money here and there occasionally?
Out of interest does anyone know the difference in BIK tax in a Tesla type thing and a pickup?
Electric cars are a percentage (currently 1% I think) of the retail value. That percentage will edge up each year. The Disco 5 Commercial I have is a flat rate of £3,500 p.a. BIK.
Wonder what they will class a Disco Commercial as – currently, it’s a van? Won’t affect my old knacker of a ’16 plate D4, but (having had one fairly recently and may buy another), will they apply the rule to a new Disco 5 Commercial? They only have 2 seats though.
I believe the Discovery and Defender commercials/hard tops are exempt since they are converted to be strictly two seaters, with the rear windows blanked off by hard plastic guards and no winder mechanism. At least mine is.
But the taxman is going to make me poorer if I keep the vehicle I have and I need to travel for various reasons for work and pleasure.. I’m sure the government and places like Bike Park Wales would like me to be able to visit and spend money here and there occasionally?
So pay an appropriate amount of tax for the financial benefit you get from it (i.e. how much would it cost you to buy and run a similar "car", 20/40/45% +N.I of that).
All that's changing is you won't benefit from the cheaper flat rate valuation of commercial vehicles.
Or just stop using a great big truck for personal trips and pay less tax than you do now.
AINAE but are double cabs with 500kg payload a bit of a UK thing than sprang up in response to the tax saving ? They seem to be pretty flashy rather than utilitarian
Needs to carry 1 ton to gets all the benefits tax wise .
I had a Wildtrak for 18 months *. Whilst it was a great vehicle, with a lockable cover, you could never leave tools in there for fear someone running a knife through the roll cover to open it up. Went back to a van after selling it for a little more than I paid for it ( just post covid times).
*didn't kill or maim any cyclists or pedestrians in that period
Or just stop using a great big truck for personal trips and pay less tax than you do now.
Or don't declare that usage. Lets not kid ourselves thats what's going to happen in a lot of cases like it does for double cab vans, it is after all a self-declared system, there's no policing of it (AFAIK).
I’ve noticed a lot of firms like Van Haven, Urban etc advertise the fact you can buy and run the vehicle “tax efficiently” through your company.
“On the books” it’s a panel van , commercial disco / defender etc , but they will add seats and all the tarty bits to make it into a Kombi or 5 seater.
Are they technically encouraging you to commit fraud ?
However, these 400bhp PHEV vehicles (see also Range Rover P400e) aren’t really that are they? They are usually a 300(ish) 2l with an electric boost (for as long as it lasts – probably not that long), or it get’s used up trundling about locally purely on the motors. That said a 2l in a Volvo estate is going to fare better than in a big Range Rover
But – I am going to research and see if real world usage of these proves me wrong and it might well be on the list – especially if the emissions will make it beneficial to buy through the Ltd company (usually not)
The RR sport 440e ( now the 460e) has a WTLP figure of 70 odd miles on pure leccy. It will actually comfortably do 50 on a mix of dual carriageway and single lane roads. More than enough for most journeys
@revs, Seat conversions may be tricky when it comes to insurance. But yes, I know lots of people have been doing this for a long time.
I guess Urban would say they are supplying demand rather than encouraging fraud. It's up to the customer to tell DLVA and their accountant..
FYI. If its size that you are worried about a Mondeo is only 500mm shorter than a Ranger and the same length as a Custom LWB the ranger is narrower than the Custom.
Same 2l Engine
FYI. If its size that you are worried about a Mondeo is only 500mm shorter than a Ranger and the same length as a Custom LWB the ranger is narrower than the Custom.
And the bonnet height?
Lower than a Scania.
But 100mm different (Roughly) at the front.
I’ve noticed a lot of firms like Van Haven, Urban etc advertise the fact you can buy and run the vehicle “tax efficiently” through your company.
“On the books” it’s a panel van , commercial disco / defender etc , but they will add seats and all the tarty bits to make it into a Kombi or 5 seater.
Are they technically encouraging you to commit fraud ?
I wonder what happens to these vehicles when they are 3 years old and need an MoT?
Take the seats out, hand it back to the lease Co. or flog it.
They got MOTd and then run through a major auction house would be my guess
ETA: assuming they are lease company vehicles. If they are main dealer leased then Probably end up on the forecourt
What will likely happen is just like our neighbours on our trading estate you end up with a Van and an EV per person, so even less tax being paid to HMRC overall.
I admire your optimism that VED will not be payable on EV's in the future. (It's going to irk @Rone) The Chancellor will always seek to balance the books on revenue.
Will this affect VED as well in the future? Don't they currently pay the van rate (£300?) rather than the higher rate based on CO2 emissions?
I wonder what happens to these vehicles when they are 3 years old and need an MoT?
A colleague had one, V5 etc all correctly showed it as a 5 seater. The only difference to the near identical one from another colleague was the rear trim was close, but not exactly as per Landrovers, and some of the cosmetic stuff on the outside like wing mirrors were black plastic. Unless they were parked next to each other you'd never know (other than he'd tell you how much cheaper it was).
Ironically (un-ironically?) he'd come in a £500 shitbox Berlingo if he actually hat to carry any gear as it was much bigger and more economical!
Will this affect VED as well in the future? Don’t they currently pay the van rate (£300?) rather than the higher rate based on CO2 emissions?
I suspect you're assuming more joined-up thinking from HMG than the reality.
I wonder what happens to these vehicles when they are 3 years old and need an MoT?
Tested as presented and no ****s given
Why do so many of them (and SUVs) sound like they're named after butt plugs? Add "Anal" to the names of so many of them and you can't look at them in the same way again. The OG Nissan and Toyota are almost notable by being the exception. Even the Mercedes is called the 'x-class'
Discovery
Maverick
Ranger
Ram
Avenger
Renegade
Rogue
Commander
Ascender
Defender
Trailblazer
Pathfinder
Explorer
Blazer
Wrangler
Outlander
Looks like 2 door trucks are exempt which is good.
Need to carry a large or heavy load, go off road or both - a single/extended cab will be better.
Only use for a 4 door commercially is if the higher gross weight gives a slightly better towing performance/legal ability?
If a vehicle has side windows behind the driver and passenger doors
I've always thought it's a shame that this is part of the calculation (more than a shame - scandalous really). Seating I understand. But windows - thats a fairly useful feature for driving. You know, seeing things - safety - avoiding collisions and death and injury. Vans have pretty bad blind spots on the passenger side - smaller vans in particular. Our road junctions haven't all been built with Van sight-line in mind - theres one near Edinburgh thats an absolute game of Russian roulette for commercial vehicles. In France for instance berlingo sized vans will often have windows behind the B pillar from the factory even through theres no seating there - fitted so the driver can see whats around them properly.
Looks like 2 door trucks are exempt which is good.
Need to carry a large or heavy load, go off road or both – a single/extended cab will be better.
They're often specced for lower carrying capacity (in weight terms) even though they have a larger bed, and also a lower towing capacity. (Although theres been some changes in towing regs in recent years so not sure if the latter is still the case.) The dual cab pickups have simultaneously been in a weird pair of loopholes where they've not been considered to be 'cars' in the eyes of VAT / BIK but they haven't been treated as 'vans/commercials' by VOSA /DVSA so sat outside their scope in terms of towing / train-weights / tacos /operators licences. 2 seat pickups - being deemed vans- tend to have their spec limited in terms of GVW kept low to cater for DVSA and MOT regs that pertain to vans but not to cars.
theres one near Edinburgh thats an absolute game of Russian roulette for commercial vehicles
The A703 coming from Penicuik direction, joining the A702 at Hillend. I claim my £5 (and feel lucky to have survived that junction on several occasions when we had a panel van)
I claim my £5
Paypal gift?
Looks like 2 door trucks are exempt which is good.
Need to carry a large or heavy load, go off road or both – a single/extended cab will be better.
Trouble is, they are generally very spartan spec wise - personal use or not, if I'm travelling 30k miles a year for work, I want it to be a nice place to sit
Trouble is, they are generally very spartan spec wise – personal use or not, if I’m travelling 30k miles a year for work, I want it to be a nice place to sit
Manufacturers only offering the nice trims in the 4 door versions I think brings us back to the start of this thread - because most people were buying them as tax dodging family SUVs.
Still, they've got a few months to figure out how to put the nice seats, dashboard and aircon into the single cabs.
I remain mystified by the 'contractor'/'trades' that need a 4x4 pickup in the UK. Where are you working that isn't accessible by road?
the ones I see in the southeast/London have clearly never got the wheels dirty - theres a scaffolding liveried one a couple of streets away, a few gardeners, an electrician and a surprising number of personal trainers.
None of these vehicles are going off road.
I remain mystified by the ‘contractor’/’trades’ that need a 4×4 pickup in the UK.
Need has nothing to do with it. They're peacocks' feathers.
I remain mystified by the ‘contractor’/’trades’ that need a 4×4 pickup in the UK. Where are you working that isn’t accessible by road?
I work for a civils firm mainly doing the infrastructure works for housing developers.
We have quite a few of the pick-ups here at work - vehicle of choice for our contract managers and site engineers. Probably 90% of the time spend on normal roads but for the other 10%, if you've ever driven about on sites in the north of England during winter you'd understand what a great tool they are.
Reminds me when a fireman pal was complaining that he was going to be taxed on his 'company' car.
No sympathy from this ex-company car user whatsoever - he'd basically had access & use to a free vehicle for years, used it for commuting, shopping etc etc.
Middle son has a double cab pickup, use to have a hybrid 5 series but needed more capacity for his work gear (on-call industrial electrician) and moving back to a hybrid (Volvo estate) next year.
The whole problem with company cars/vans etc is that there's no way of having a system that's fair to everyone, including taxpayers as a whole - so blanket solutions are implemented. This has occurred for pretty much ever.
I remain mystified by the ‘contractor’/’trades’ that need a 4×4 pickup in the UK.
Need has nothing to do with it. They’re peacocks’ feathers.
Yeah, whatever
We have quite a few of the pick-ups here at work – vehicle of choice for our contract managers and site engineers. Probably 90% of the time spend on normal roads but for the other 10%, if you’ve ever driven about on sites in the north of England during winter you’d understand what a great tool they are.
I wouldn't dispute that there's a use case for a 4x4.
The point is that if it's "just" a 4x4, then it's a crap* but tax effective "car", not a "commercial vehicle". And the BIK is being updated to reflect that fact.
e.g. Mr Photocopier salesman drives to a client sites in his Mondeo 5 days a week, then goes to BPW at the weekend. He pays BIK based on the Mondeos value and emissions to reflect the fact that even if it effectively costs the company very little to do, he's receiving a "benefit in kind" of a new-ish car for his personal use, which is quite a big benefit if you like a new-ish car.
Mr JCB salesman drives to a client sites in his Pickup 5 days a week, then goes to BPW at the weekend. He pays currently pays £60 tax on the BIK because it was generally understood that pickups and vans were s**t, so most sensible people didn't see driving round in a 2000's Ford Ranger as any sort of "Benefit".
Now that a Ford Ranger is a £60k car with leather seats, air conditioning, 21" alloys and you can even spec a spoiler FFS. It's quite clearly a car at the weekend and the BIK is being changed to reflect this.
The manufacturers and fleet buyers know this because the two seater ones that you can't put the wife and kids in and use as a car are:
generally very spartan spec wise – personal use or not, if I’m travelling 30k miles a year for work, I want it to be a nice place to sit
*fuel inefficient, poor visibility, live axle suspended, ladder chassised, etc etc.
the ones I see in the southeast/London have clearly never got the wheels dirty – theres a scaffolding liveried one a couple of streets away, a few gardeners, an electrician and a surprising number of personal trainers.
Thats why you see so few in the south east compared to parts of the country where they're actually needed I guess. I live probably 2 miles from where I am sat. If I pass less than half a dozen on my way home I would be surprised. If more than 2 don't look like they've done a days graft today I will be even more surprised again.
Its not like anyone working for the government ever used a crew cab pickup for actual work though, obviously.
https://www.4x4at.com/blog/environment-agency-chooses-protop/
Its not like anyone working for the government ever used a crew cab pickup for actual work though, obviously.
Exactly, and I'd be surprised if the driver of that pickup pays any BIK?
Can you imagine if a Paramedic was asked to pay BIK on a £250,000* Mercedes Ambulance, it'd be more than their paycheck.
*yea, it amazed me too, apparently the "van" style ones are nearer £150-£180k, but you can swap the box off the back of the coach built ones onto a new chassis so they're cost effective in the longer term as long as you don't wreck them.
I remain mystified by the ‘contractor’/’trades’ that need a 4×4 pickup in the UK. Where are you working that isn’t accessible by road?
Plenty of remote sites like Mobile phone masts to get to. I’ve borrowed a 4WD commercial before now after not making it to site, in the two wheel drive Caddy I had at the time. Some contractors have to offer 24 hour cover to remote sites, so need 4 Wheel drives.
I live in the South east but as a contractor cover the UK, so yes I may find myself in remote places.
One comedy moment we nearly slid down a Welsh cliffside and had to get dragged out by a farmer. We were in a two wheel drive Transporter, got on site ok, weather closed in and a few inches of snow was enough to get us stuck.
If your using the pick up during the day as a work vehicle then its a proper work vehicle.
I used to park my pick up at work because it was always fully loaded with heavy stuff in the back, not ideal for commuting with.
The rear seat area was more secure and had the tools more valued stuff and could carry a spare person(s) around site if needed.
Cab for the apprentice/my assistant and was also my office for drawings do calculations and also tea break / lunch spot including shelter when the heavens opened esp in early stages of a job before the portacabins arrived and up and running.
Was not ideal for a commuter as not efficient and mud fest inside ,but did do on occasions.
A proper work vehicle.
4x4 was so useful on some construction projects, getting across them and too them and even the more mild ones ,I could park safely on a verge and keep the road clear.
Jobs include motorways,road works, new build railways etc
The chapter 8 signs were handy for safely putting out signs on bike events occasionally as well !
It's was a tool for the job.
Thats why you see so few in the south east compared to parts of the country where they’re actually needed I guess.
I love how this had become a north Vs South thing somehow, it's as if the government isn't driving the spectacularly ill thought out policy of building hundred of thousands of new homes on the Thames Valley, which is swamp most of the year and thus crawling with Bovis Homes liveried L200's.
It's the South of England, not the South of France 😂
I remain mystified by the ‘contractor’/’trades’ that need a 4×4 pickup in the UK.
I Killed lots of estate cars and vans with the weight of our site gear, the fact I can shove nearly a 1000kg of kit in plus trailer and a work crew and get to a muddy site is a bit of win really.
daft thing is I'm going back to big PHEV suv for day to day stuff as a company vehicle and will still have to hire 4x4 pickups for projects so that 2 vehicles on the road, where 1 was used previously, extra cost to the clients and a pain in the ass all round, but hey I'm sure I could manage with a cargo bike, using public transport and VW up 🙂
