So I'm guessing most interested folk have probably heard about Nikon's new 1 series (inter-changable lens mirrorless compacts) announced on the 21st Sept.
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http://www.nikon1.co.uk/en_GB_N1/
http://nikonrumors.com/2011/09/21/i-came-nikon-mirrorles-camera-announced.aspx/
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1109/11092120nikonlaunch.asp
What's the first impressions from the hive mind?
It's a fashion accessory for yummy-mummies and Japanese school-girls.
I bet it works ****in brilliantly though!
I want. I [i]need[/i].
Graham you bastard.
I want to like it I really do.. the sensor is just too small.
Small sensor tho Elf. CX format. Even smaller than DX.
But that full metal body is nice eh?
Yeah, it won't be something I'll actually be buying, but the concept is fantastic; proper tough, high quality little cam which you can bung in a pokkit. And which might actually produce decent results.
Want, always wantes something to replace my ME Super, i.e. not a full blown DSLR, better than but smaller than my bridge camera (fuji s9500, basicly an SLR sized body with a 18-300mm lebnse).
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Simplicity = awesome
the sensor is just too small.
On the one hand I agree, on the other hand I've not tried it so can't comment. It might be great in low light, and focal lengths are just numbers.
It does look pretty. And I see there's an F mount adaptor so you can use any Nikon AF-S lens. I'm guessing that's a hotshoe under that little slidey bit of plastic on the top too....
Tempting. Good job I'm skint 🙂
I'm guessing that's a hotshoe under that little slidey bit of plastic on the top too....
It's a new accessory port for these add-ons.
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i would be tempted to get one as my preset POS is driving me up the wall with how slow it is, the only thing holding me back is i am waiting for low light review, if it can only shoot up to iso200 then becomes too noisy then i wont bother. but i am hoping there will be some clever electronic thingmajig that helps with low light performance.
any decent reviews out there yet?
Interesting but why the small sensor? It will be interesting if they manage to work some magic and get impressive high ISO performance. Even less potential for shallow DOF than M4/3 cameras though.
Not seen any full reviews yet but bear in mind that although folk are saying the sensor is small, it is still larger than the sensor in compacts so it [i]should[/i] have better low light capabilities.
And Nikon have been leading the charge on low light stuff recently so here's hoping.
Grum, i was thinking of the lack of DoF but then I suppose if i really want it i can always add it after in PS.
It's a new accessory port for these add-ons.
Not being able to use existing flashguns or radio triggers would be a huge turn off for me... I know it's really just a point 'n' shoot but seems a shame.
If you're after a Nikon compact that has a hotshoe then check out the P7100:
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GrahamS - that's also very pretty and I see you can buy one for a shade under £400... What I'd really like is a compact camera with an F mount and a hotshoe 😉 But that P7100 would be a nice compromise, especially given that it has Manual, AP and SP modes.
Not seen any full reviews yet but bear in mind that although folk are saying the sensor is small, it is still larger than the sensor in compacts so it should have better low light capabilities.
At $900 it isn't really competing with a compact is it?
What I'd really like is a compact camera with an F mount and a hotshoe
Agreed. A DX sensor and F mount on a tough mirrorless "rangefinder-style" body would be lovely.
I think a lot of people were hoping that's what the Nikon 1 would be - hence disappointment in some areas.
the sensor is just too small.
Too small for what?
Too small for what?
Too small for a camera that big with lenses that big... that costs more than smaller cameras with bigger sensors and smaller lenses.
You'd have to not read the specs to buy one. It does come in pink though.
Too small for a camera that big with lenses that big
Are the lenses big? Look okay to me:
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How do they compare to the equivalent lenses for m4/3rds?
You'd have to not read the specs to buy one.
I wouldn't buy one because I don't want one. It has a place in the market, though, whether you or I think so or not.
How do they compare to the equivalent lenses for m4/3rds?
Not well. The big zoom even compares poorly with nex lenses.
I can understand using a small sensor to get a small body and small lenses but they've achieved neither.
But, they're not looking to take sales from their dslr division and they've done a good job of that.
I wouldn't buy one because I don't want one. It has a place in the market, though, whether you or I think so or not.
Yeah, I agree completely. They'll sell boat loads. But not to photographers as such. They'll read the spec. The pink ones will sell the best.
I take it the little viewfinder is going to be a lcd/digital and not an optical?
Looks awesome. Shame they put a small sensor in it. If it came with an aps-c size sensor I would buy one.
The nex7 will smash it to bits.
Not well. The big zoom even compares poorly with nex lenses
You mean the VR 10-100mm f/4.5-5.6 PD-ZOOM ?
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That appears to be geared towards shooting movies rather than stills (with PowerDrive zoom and ultra quiet focus motors), but it is 77×95mm. The roughly equivalent NEX is the SEL-18200, slightly larger at 75.5×99mm and doesn't have in-lens VR.
So yeah, the biggest lens is about the same size but the NEX lens seems less featured (at first glance). Image quality remains to be seen.#
The standard 10-30mm kit lens looks about the right size to me, Any smaller than that would get fiddly.
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I take it the little viewfinder is going to be a lcd/digital and not an optical?
Yep. It's a mirrorless system with an electronic viewfinder (EVF).
If the AF performance, frame rate and video/still integration work as well as the specs suggest they will, it's potentially very interesting in ways most people haven't realised yet. There's some clever stuff going in the sensor and processor 🙂
Needs some more interesting lenses, though...
Thom Hogan is predicting the following future lenses at some point:
14mm f/2.8 (~35mm equivalent)
18mm f/1.4 (~50mm equivalent)
32mm f/1.2 (~85mm equivalent)
40mm f/2.8 Micro-Nikkor (~105mm equivalent)
60mm f/3.5 Micro-Nikkor (162mm equivalent)
7-13mm f/3.5-5.6 (20-35mm equivalent)
9-43mm f/2.8-5.6 (24-120mm equivalent)
Guess it will depend how well it does.
So yeah, the biggest lens is about the same size but the NEX lens seems less featured (at first glance). Image quality remains to be seen.#
Wrong lens, that's the a-mount dslr lens, not he e-mount nex lens (hence the lack of stabilisation as a-mount has in-body). The e-mount has stabilisation.
You're on a loser if you think the nikon can compete with IQ with a nex I'm afraid. Which would be fine if the nikon was proportionally smaller to match the sensor size. Or even if it was proportionally cheaper.
Wrong lens, that's the a-mount dslr lens, not he e-mount nex lens
Apologies I don't know anything about NEX stuff and their website is very broken.
[url= http://www.sony.co.uk/product/ddl-nex-5-nex-3-lenses-and-a-mount-adaptor/sel-18200#pageType=TechnicalSpecs ]The link did say it was "Only compatible with E-mount cameras" though.[/url] ?
You're on a loser if you think the nikon can compete with IQ with a nex I'm afraid
Wow, you've already tested both systems against each other? Do tell...
;P
Apologies I don't know anything about NEX stuff and their website is very broken.The link did say it was "Only compatible with E-mount cameras" though. ?
You're right, that is the correct lens. It does have stabilisation and there is (or was) an 18-200 without so I assumed you meant that one.
Wow, you've already tested both systems against each other? Do tell...
Sensor size. You can't beat physics.
as kudos said, isn't the sony the boss in this area? (clicking video aside - new one)
proper big ccd
I'm amazed on-chip pdaf hasn't come up. It's the only feature that the nikon has going for it.
Sensor size. You can't beat physics.
I'm aware of the size difference and the implications. I was just suggesting that pre-judging a new product's performance arguably isn't the most objective position to take.
And anyway, the NEX won't do 10mp at 60fps, IIRC. Apples and oranges 😉
I'm amazed on-chip pdaf hasn't come up
I hinted at it earlier, but everyone missed it.
It's the only feature that the nikon has going for it.
That and full resolution stills during video capture. Oh, and stills at 60fps.
No, it's not perfect. But it's a very interesting take on a small system camera and I, for one, would like to try it before I judge it 🙂
'm aware of the size difference and the implications. I was just suggesting that pre-judging a new product's performance arguably isn't the most objective position to take.And anyway, the NEX won't do 10mp at 60fps, IIRC. Apples and oranges
When there's a factor of 2 involved in sensor size and the sensors are the same generation you'd have to be feeling argumentative to suggest IQ will be comparable.
Phase detect AF during video is pretty cool, how come Nikon have managed this where others haven't?
Sony has phase detect video on it's dslt range using different technology.
Samsung (EDIT: Fujifilm, not Samsung) introduced it last year using the same on-chip approach as Nikon. They sacrifice some pixels in the centre of the sensor to achieve it and it only works on the central spot.
It looks like it's a bit slower than the new olympus cdaf but works better in low light.
The most interesting thing (to me) is this may be Nikon's new pd solution for dslrs so they can dump the mirror eventually.
My friend had the similar idea Olympus PEN. Great results but it's just an awkward thing to use.
Unless it had the 'pancake' lens on, it was too big to put into a pocket and he'd end up taking his compact around instead for everyday shooting.
Put one of the longer lenses on and it's nigh on as awkward a shape to carry around as a 'prosumer' DSLR so he'd take that out instead as the handling was better. (plus the olympus had no viewfinder so if you took it outdoors you couldn't see the screen to compose the shot! so he had to buy the optional clip on viewfinder (£200!) which made it even more unpocketable!)
It ended up as a very expensive, capable, nice looking thing that he left at home. 🙁
Now get that image quality and controllability in a similarly sized 'pro - compact' form and you've got a winner on your hands, as it is it doesn't quite work and you'll maybe end up flogging it 'as new' 6months down the line like he did.
Everyone who sees you with it will remark how nice it looks though! 🙂
[url= http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/.a/6a00df351e888f8834013481563fb6970c-800wi ]pen vs NEX[/url]
transmute, that's where the sony seems to hit the sweetspot a bit better - big lens still though
Hmm I wouldn't be impressed with anyone pointing one of those at me, if you like that sort of camera buy the M9 (Leica) get some class.
Whilst they cut down on shake from the mirror, up close there might be parallax issues, which some folk don't like in some situations, it's why SLR's became de rigeur in the first place, so it is a bit of a fashion thing, I can't see many pro's adopting it, which then means semi pro amateurs won't like it much either..
Looks cool but - not as cool as a Leica though.
up close there might be parallax issues
?? Surely the viewfinder image comes from the same sensor as the final image? If anything I would have thought an EVF would more accurately reflect the framing of your final image than an optical viewfinder.
also, isn't the M9 something like five grand?
Lets hope its not a gash EVF
Hmm maybe, I hadn't studied it that close, it just looked like the viewfinder was operating through that little circle just off to the right. How could the sensor and light metering function if it was connected to the viewfinder? Surely there would be ambient backlight, I don't know, not a huge expert I just pose in front of them, don't pay me any mind..
There are cheaper Leica's though, just seems a bit not cool Nikon entering that market, I love their SLR's have one myself and an old F1 film version lurking somewhere.
It ended up as a very expensive, capable, nice looking thing that he left at home.
That's not the case for a lot of people though.
How could the sensor and light metering function if it was connected to the viewfinder?
The viewfinder is just a little screen behind an eyepiece. The live image can be taken electronically from the sensor and displayed on the screen. No light interference required.
PJBarton, yep I think it's the lens size that's the biggest problem, stick the flat wide angles on them and they're great little things. Great quality in a nice small size.
However stick a bigger lens on the front and it wipes out most of the advantages of the compact format and you end up leaving it at home! 🙁 (at which point your cameraphone starts to take better shot's! 😉 ) Or if you're taking a bag you might as well take your SLR.
That's not the case for a lot of people though.
Probably because most folks won't spend the best part of a grand on it!
For that money you can get an entry level DSLR kit and a nice quality compact, lots more if you go second hand!
No bag trips - compact
Bag trips -SLR
Sorted.
But then again a lot of the folks that my friend knows in his photoclub were sold as soon as the saw it as it's a lovely looking thing, so there will be sales! I'd just wait six months and buy one second hand for half the price 🙂 (with the pancake lens as that makes a very nice compact indeed)
GrahamS - Member
How could the sensor and light metering function if it was connected to the viewfinder?
The viewfinder is just a little screen behind an eyepiece. The live image can be taken electronically from the sensor and displayed on the screen. No light interference required.
Oh like on my Lumix, don't like them, no sense of reality and the image never looks totally sharp, nasty cheap thing, spoils an otherwise neat little camera and there's an annoying shutter delay(my Lumix, not your Nikon which looks totally cool and I'm sure will take excellent stuff.) I don't know why they do it, you lose touch with the subject, it must cost more, sorry nearly went on a rant there...
I don't know why they do it
Because as you point out, a separate "peep through a hole" optical viewfinder causes parallax errors, wouldn't support multiple lenses and is generally rubbish.
To do a proper Through-The-Lens viewfinder you need a fancy flappy mirror, which makes it a big SLR, or you need to use a prism/half-mirror and rob some of the light from the exposure. Which is also bad.
As with most things in photography, it's all about compromise.
there's an annoying shutter delay(my Lumix, not your Nikon which looks totally cool and I'm sure will take excellent stuff.)
Supposedly the V1 has "The world’s shortest shooting time lag*" so that shouldn't be an issue.
*The world’s shortest shooting time lag (as determined by Nikon performance tests). Measured when using the single-point AF mode and the shortest focal length of a standard zoom lens (1 NIKKOR VR 10-30mm f 3.5-5.6). As of August 5, 2011. [url= http://blog.iamnikon.com/en_GB/product-news/nikon-1/ ]Source[/url]
Oh like on my Lumix, don't like them, no sense of reality and the image never looks totally sharp, nasty cheap thing, spoils an otherwise neat little camera and there's an annoying shutter delay(my Lumix, not your Nikon which looks totally cool and I'm sure will take excellent stuff.) I don't know why they do it, you lose touch with the subject, it must cost more, sorry nearly went on a rant there...
A wee touch of the psudes corner there, perhaps? '...lose touch with the subject', sorry, but if it's in front of you and you can see it then you can take it's picture. Unless you're talking about high speed action photography, in which case you've picked entirely the wrong camera. '...no sense of reality...', well, I can't say I've had any issues with my Nikon CoolPix 5700, my Lumix TZ3, my iPhone, or my Nikon D60, and yes, I do know that's a DSLR, but I take photos exactly the same with all of them, I see the subject, compose the picture, then press the button.
No bag trips - compact
Bag trips -SLR
You say this like it's some kind of universal truth. I own 2 DSLRs and there are still plenty of occasions where I take my GF1 in preference.
Looks alright but having had a play with a few of these "compact dslr" type solutions (GF1 etc) I think they're a bit of a waste of time. They're not small enough to slip in a pocket and they don't have the same versatility of a proper dslr. I ended up going for a Canon S95 as my "compact travel camera" solution and it's perfect. Amazing image quality for such a tiny camera, full manual mode, and you can even get some very good action shots once you get used to the shutter lag.
You say this like it's some kind of universal truth.
Isn't that what most people make of their own opinions?
'Pseuds' Dahling it's pseuds, lots of us in the fashion game, if you look em in the eye with one eye and the other through the finder, it's easier to catch the 'expression' just right, can't do that with screen things, wrong focal length your eyes can't focus at two different lengths, whereas, mirror or live view finders enable that, hence 'pseudish' being in touch with the 'subject' and you must have seen fashion dudes putting the camera on a tripod and working with a remote..
Anyway, I digress, it's a male model thing, you get to know this stuff..
can't do that with screen things, wrong focal length your eyes can't focus at two different lengths, whereas, mirror or live view finders enable that
Wouldn't work for me. I can't see crap without my glasses, but the viewfinder (on my SLR) is in focus cos it has a dioptre adjustment.
But I doubt anyone will be using Nikon 1s for studio fashion shoots. (or any other compact system)
It's not exactly the target market!
Looks alright but having had a play with a few of these "compact dslr" type solutions (GF1 etc) I think they're a bit of a waste of time. They're not small enough to slip in a pocket and they don't have the same versatility of a proper dslr.
*sigh*
IMO 🙂
No bag trips - compact
Bag trips -SLRYou say this like it's some kind of universal truth. I own 2 DSLRs and there are still plenty of occasions where I take my GF1 in preference.
Not at all! As I said if it's got the compact 'pancake lens' on it then they'd be a fab top quality take it everywhere camera, but it's when you stick a bigger lens on the front that it starts to lose it's appeal to me as it's knocking on for the same sort of size as say a 550/1000D or suchlike and to me the more natural handling of a DSLR wins the 'what camera shall I put in my bag today?' test! 🙂
Now if they could get some nice properly compact zoom lenses on those bodies and sort out the viewfinder options then they'd be a great camera to have with you in your pocket at all times and I'd be after one (if it wasn't £900!)
But then again that would just be a very good compact wouldn't it? 😉
Just out of interest, do you take your GF1 out with you with a bigger lens in a bag or can you stick it in a pocket? (I guess with the 20mm it's pretty pocketable?)
The GF1 will fit in a jacket pocket easily with either the 20mm or 14mm pancakes. It will fit in a jacket pocket slightly less easily (but still pretty easily with most jackets) with the 14-45 zoom attached. It will still fit in a jacket pocket with the 45-200mm lens attached. My 5D won't, and it's a lot heavier.
On the bike I have it in a case attached to the chest straps on my bag and it's no bother at all and I can get it out in a couple of seconds. I usually stick a zoom lens in the bag also, but don't often bother with it. I generally prefer using primes anyway, and quite enjoy the discipline of going out and just using one lens.
I think everyone has a different balance of size/weight/convenience/IQ that works for them, but dismissing these cameras just because they don't suit some people is daft IMO.
it's easier to catch the 'expression' just right,
Blue Steel?
You say this like it's some kind of universal truth. I own 2 DSLRs and there are still plenty of occasions where I take my GF1 in preference.
just got one of those (GF-1) not bothered with compacts before as they just end up not being used as the files are poor or they are crap to use but an afternoon's shooting has changed my opinion of mirrorless cameras.
the AF is very fast and accurate and having processed the raws and given them a tweak some of the tiffs are good enough to submit to a Library. just using the 14-45 but resolution is very good in the center with only a bit of fall-off to the corners, think i will get the 20mm pancake next and maybe the olympus 45 1.8 .
worth tracking down a GF1 as i didn't like the touchscreen of it's successor.
Sorry to butt in but has anyone had experience GF3, I'm almost ready to buy the kit plus and 20mm pancake.
The Nikon looks good but the GF3s the mirrorless to beat at the moment.
no rear click dial or hotshoe would put me off (i like the push/scroll through aperture exp-comp etc) if you want to use it as a point and shoot this may not be an issue.
the AF is very fast and accurate and having processed the raws and given them a tweak some of the tiffs are good enough to submit to a Library.
I've not tried submitting any yet but I know people who sell GF1 pics through Alamy. I did sell a 30" x 20" print from a GF1 pic with the 45-200mm lens - and it was even cropped slightly, looked great and the client was very happy. I have the 14-45 and it's not bad at all - the 20mm pancake is an absolute peach though.
The GF3 is TINY - but I think has some limitations. The lack of a rear dial is a real killer for me, no flash hotshoe or flash compensation on the built in flash either I don't think (though this is less of an issue tbh as I don't like using built in flash - can be useful for fill though). Probably still a very nice camera and did I mention it's TINY, especially with the 14mm pancake. 🙂
If they had improved the high ISO performance over the GF1 I could have been tempted.
Hmmmm....
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http://nikonrumors.com/2011/09/28/nikon-1-test-results-from-dxomark-are-out.aspx
That Fulifilm FinePix scores well and has a proper viewfinder, better for sports (bike) shots (and fashion if you ever get a chance, nothing girlies like more than man and camera).
That's actually not bad compared to m4/3. Hopefully it'll encourage Olympus and Panasonic to stop recycling their ancient sensors.
its not all about the sensor though... having good glass makes a big difference
micro four thirds has the best and widest range of lenses for a compact system at the moment... NEX and the other compacts systems can't compete lens wise
Cosina Voightlander 25mm F0.95
Panasonic 7-14mm
Panasonic 20mm
Olympus 12mm
list goes on...
this link is pish
pen vs NEX
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/.a/6a00df351e888f8834013481563fb6970c-800wi
transmute, that's where the sony seems to hit the sweetspot a bit better - big lens still though
why is it pish? because the Olympus clearly has an adapter and a legacy (non native lens) attached... the focal lengths probably aren't even the same
if you look around what you will see is the NEX body is incredibly small.. but the lenses are relative big compared to some of it's competitors
Sensor stats look good - still won't be great for shallow DOF though surely?
BTW for those saying the CSCs are only any good with pancake lenses - there is a new zoom (28-84mm equivalent) coming out for M4/3 which is very compact indeed, almost the same size as the 20mm pancake.
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Interesting that they've put the 'HD' mark on it too. I haven't looked it up but doesn't that mean silent zoom and focus (video recording-wise)?
Sensor stats look good - still won't be great for shallow DOF though surely?
Well.. it'll be better than most (all?) compacts so I guess if folk are stepping up from that then they'll be pleased. But yeah it should be marginally less shallow than the m4/3 and noticeably less shallow the APS-C NEX.
Personally, as an owner of M4/3, APS-C and full frame cameras 😳 - there's not much in it between APS-C and M4/3 in terms of shallow DOF anyway. You will still be able to do it with very fast lenses I guess on this Nikon like you can on M4/3.
Interesting that they've put the 'HD' mark on it too. I haven't looked it up but doesn't that mean silent zoom and focus (video recording-wise)?
Not sure, I think it is designed for video use though as it has the powered zoom which apparently works much better for video than a ring for video. There is a new longer zoom as well with the same thing.
Can't see why it's any better than the Pen cameras. They now have silent focus lenses for video.
Smaller sensor, worse high ISO performance, costs more.. surely just for Nikon [s]fanbois[/s] brand loyalists?