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Hmm I wouldn't be impressed with anyone pointing one of those at me, if you like that sort of camera buy the M9 (Leica) get some class.
Whilst they cut down on shake from the mirror, up close there might be parallax issues, which some folk don't like in some situations, it's why SLR's became de rigeur in the first place, so it is a bit of a fashion thing, I can't see many pro's adopting it, which then means semi pro amateurs won't like it much either..
Looks cool but - not as cool as a Leica though.
up close there might be parallax issues
?? Surely the viewfinder image comes from the same sensor as the final image? If anything I would have thought an EVF would more accurately reflect the framing of your final image than an optical viewfinder.
also, isn't the M9 something like five grand?
Lets hope its not a gash EVF
Hmm maybe, I hadn't studied it that close, it just looked like the viewfinder was operating through that little circle just off to the right. How could the sensor and light metering function if it was connected to the viewfinder? Surely there would be ambient backlight, I don't know, not a huge expert I just pose in front of them, don't pay me any mind..
There are cheaper Leica's though, just seems a bit not cool Nikon entering that market, I love their SLR's have one myself and an old F1 film version lurking somewhere.
It ended up as a very expensive, capable, nice looking thing that he left at home.
That's not the case for a lot of people though.
How could the sensor and light metering function if it was connected to the viewfinder?
The viewfinder is just a little screen behind an eyepiece. The live image can be taken electronically from the sensor and displayed on the screen. No light interference required.
PJBarton, yep I think it's the lens size that's the biggest problem, stick the flat wide angles on them and they're great little things. Great quality in a nice small size.
However stick a bigger lens on the front and it wipes out most of the advantages of the compact format and you end up leaving it at home! 🙁 (at which point your cameraphone starts to take better shot's! 😉 ) Or if you're taking a bag you might as well take your SLR.
That's not the case for a lot of people though.
Probably because most folks won't spend the best part of a grand on it!
For that money you can get an entry level DSLR kit and a nice quality compact, lots more if you go second hand!
No bag trips - compact
Bag trips -SLR
Sorted.
But then again a lot of the folks that my friend knows in his photoclub were sold as soon as the saw it as it's a lovely looking thing, so there will be sales! I'd just wait six months and buy one second hand for half the price 🙂 (with the pancake lens as that makes a very nice compact indeed)
GrahamS - Member
How could the sensor and light metering function if it was connected to the viewfinder?
The viewfinder is just a little screen behind an eyepiece. The live image can be taken electronically from the sensor and displayed on the screen. No light interference required.
Oh like on my Lumix, don't like them, no sense of reality and the image never looks totally sharp, nasty cheap thing, spoils an otherwise neat little camera and there's an annoying shutter delay(my Lumix, not your Nikon which looks totally cool and I'm sure will take excellent stuff.) I don't know why they do it, you lose touch with the subject, it must cost more, sorry nearly went on a rant there...
I don't know why they do it
Because as you point out, a separate "peep through a hole" optical viewfinder causes parallax errors, wouldn't support multiple lenses and is generally rubbish.
To do a proper Through-The-Lens viewfinder you need a fancy flappy mirror, which makes it a big SLR, or you need to use a prism/half-mirror and rob some of the light from the exposure. Which is also bad.
As with most things in photography, it's all about compromise.
there's an annoying shutter delay(my Lumix, not your Nikon which looks totally cool and I'm sure will take excellent stuff.)
Supposedly the V1 has "The world’s shortest shooting time lag*" so that shouldn't be an issue.
*The world’s shortest shooting time lag (as determined by Nikon performance tests). Measured when using the single-point AF mode and the shortest focal length of a standard zoom lens (1 NIKKOR VR 10-30mm f 3.5-5.6). As of August 5, 2011. [url= http://blog.iamnikon.com/en_GB/product-news/nikon-1/ ]Source[/url]
Oh like on my Lumix, don't like them, no sense of reality and the image never looks totally sharp, nasty cheap thing, spoils an otherwise neat little camera and there's an annoying shutter delay(my Lumix, not your Nikon which looks totally cool and I'm sure will take excellent stuff.) I don't know why they do it, you lose touch with the subject, it must cost more, sorry nearly went on a rant there...
A wee touch of the psudes corner there, perhaps? '...lose touch with the subject', sorry, but if it's in front of you and you can see it then you can take it's picture. Unless you're talking about high speed action photography, in which case you've picked entirely the wrong camera. '...no sense of reality...', well, I can't say I've had any issues with my Nikon CoolPix 5700, my Lumix TZ3, my iPhone, or my Nikon D60, and yes, I do know that's a DSLR, but I take photos exactly the same with all of them, I see the subject, compose the picture, then press the button.
No bag trips - compact
Bag trips -SLR
You say this like it's some kind of universal truth. I own 2 DSLRs and there are still plenty of occasions where I take my GF1 in preference.
Looks alright but having had a play with a few of these "compact dslr" type solutions (GF1 etc) I think they're a bit of a waste of time. They're not small enough to slip in a pocket and they don't have the same versatility of a proper dslr. I ended up going for a Canon S95 as my "compact travel camera" solution and it's perfect. Amazing image quality for such a tiny camera, full manual mode, and you can even get some very good action shots once you get used to the shutter lag.
You say this like it's some kind of universal truth.
Isn't that what most people make of their own opinions?
'Pseuds' Dahling it's pseuds, lots of us in the fashion game, if you look em in the eye with one eye and the other through the finder, it's easier to catch the 'expression' just right, can't do that with screen things, wrong focal length your eyes can't focus at two different lengths, whereas, mirror or live view finders enable that, hence 'pseudish' being in touch with the 'subject' and you must have seen fashion dudes putting the camera on a tripod and working with a remote..
Anyway, I digress, it's a male model thing, you get to know this stuff..
can't do that with screen things, wrong focal length your eyes can't focus at two different lengths, whereas, mirror or live view finders enable that
Wouldn't work for me. I can't see crap without my glasses, but the viewfinder (on my SLR) is in focus cos it has a dioptre adjustment.
But I doubt anyone will be using Nikon 1s for studio fashion shoots. (or any other compact system)
It's not exactly the target market!
Looks alright but having had a play with a few of these "compact dslr" type solutions (GF1 etc) I think they're a bit of a waste of time. They're not small enough to slip in a pocket and they don't have the same versatility of a proper dslr.
*sigh*
IMO 🙂
No bag trips - compact
Bag trips -SLRYou say this like it's some kind of universal truth. I own 2 DSLRs and there are still plenty of occasions where I take my GF1 in preference.
Not at all! As I said if it's got the compact 'pancake lens' on it then they'd be a fab top quality take it everywhere camera, but it's when you stick a bigger lens on the front that it starts to lose it's appeal to me as it's knocking on for the same sort of size as say a 550/1000D or suchlike and to me the more natural handling of a DSLR wins the 'what camera shall I put in my bag today?' test! 🙂
Now if they could get some nice properly compact zoom lenses on those bodies and sort out the viewfinder options then they'd be a great camera to have with you in your pocket at all times and I'd be after one (if it wasn't £900!)
But then again that would just be a very good compact wouldn't it? 😉
Just out of interest, do you take your GF1 out with you with a bigger lens in a bag or can you stick it in a pocket? (I guess with the 20mm it's pretty pocketable?)
The GF1 will fit in a jacket pocket easily with either the 20mm or 14mm pancakes. It will fit in a jacket pocket slightly less easily (but still pretty easily with most jackets) with the 14-45 zoom attached. It will still fit in a jacket pocket with the 45-200mm lens attached. My 5D won't, and it's a lot heavier.
On the bike I have it in a case attached to the chest straps on my bag and it's no bother at all and I can get it out in a couple of seconds. I usually stick a zoom lens in the bag also, but don't often bother with it. I generally prefer using primes anyway, and quite enjoy the discipline of going out and just using one lens.
I think everyone has a different balance of size/weight/convenience/IQ that works for them, but dismissing these cameras just because they don't suit some people is daft IMO.
it's easier to catch the 'expression' just right,
Blue Steel?
You say this like it's some kind of universal truth. I own 2 DSLRs and there are still plenty of occasions where I take my GF1 in preference.
just got one of those (GF-1) not bothered with compacts before as they just end up not being used as the files are poor or they are crap to use but an afternoon's shooting has changed my opinion of mirrorless cameras.
the AF is very fast and accurate and having processed the raws and given them a tweak some of the tiffs are good enough to submit to a Library. just using the 14-45 but resolution is very good in the center with only a bit of fall-off to the corners, think i will get the 20mm pancake next and maybe the olympus 45 1.8 .
worth tracking down a GF1 as i didn't like the touchscreen of it's successor.
Sorry to butt in but has anyone had experience GF3, I'm almost ready to buy the kit plus and 20mm pancake.
The Nikon looks good but the GF3s the mirrorless to beat at the moment.
no rear click dial or hotshoe would put me off (i like the push/scroll through aperture exp-comp etc) if you want to use it as a point and shoot this may not be an issue.
the AF is very fast and accurate and having processed the raws and given them a tweak some of the tiffs are good enough to submit to a Library.
I've not tried submitting any yet but I know people who sell GF1 pics through Alamy. I did sell a 30" x 20" print from a GF1 pic with the 45-200mm lens - and it was even cropped slightly, looked great and the client was very happy. I have the 14-45 and it's not bad at all - the 20mm pancake is an absolute peach though.
The GF3 is TINY - but I think has some limitations. The lack of a rear dial is a real killer for me, no flash hotshoe or flash compensation on the built in flash either I don't think (though this is less of an issue tbh as I don't like using built in flash - can be useful for fill though). Probably still a very nice camera and did I mention it's TINY, especially with the 14mm pancake. 🙂
If they had improved the high ISO performance over the GF1 I could have been tempted.
Hmmmm....
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http://nikonrumors.com/2011/09/28/nikon-1-test-results-from-dxomark-are-out.aspx
That Fulifilm FinePix scores well and has a proper viewfinder, better for sports (bike) shots (and fashion if you ever get a chance, nothing girlies like more than man and camera).
That's actually not bad compared to m4/3. Hopefully it'll encourage Olympus and Panasonic to stop recycling their ancient sensors.
its not all about the sensor though... having good glass makes a big difference
micro four thirds has the best and widest range of lenses for a compact system at the moment... NEX and the other compacts systems can't compete lens wise
Cosina Voightlander 25mm F0.95
Panasonic 7-14mm
Panasonic 20mm
Olympus 12mm
list goes on...
this link is pish
pen vs NEX
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/.a/6a00df351e888f8834013481563fb6970c-800wi
transmute, that's where the sony seems to hit the sweetspot a bit better - big lens still though
why is it pish? because the Olympus clearly has an adapter and a legacy (non native lens) attached... the focal lengths probably aren't even the same
if you look around what you will see is the NEX body is incredibly small.. but the lenses are relative big compared to some of it's competitors
Sensor stats look good - still won't be great for shallow DOF though surely?
BTW for those saying the CSCs are only any good with pancake lenses - there is a new zoom (28-84mm equivalent) coming out for M4/3 which is very compact indeed, almost the same size as the 20mm pancake.
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Interesting that they've put the 'HD' mark on it too. I haven't looked it up but doesn't that mean silent zoom and focus (video recording-wise)?
Sensor stats look good - still won't be great for shallow DOF though surely?
Well.. it'll be better than most (all?) compacts so I guess if folk are stepping up from that then they'll be pleased. But yeah it should be marginally less shallow than the m4/3 and noticeably less shallow the APS-C NEX.
Personally, as an owner of M4/3, APS-C and full frame cameras 😳 - there's not much in it between APS-C and M4/3 in terms of shallow DOF anyway. You will still be able to do it with very fast lenses I guess on this Nikon like you can on M4/3.
Interesting that they've put the 'HD' mark on it too. I haven't looked it up but doesn't that mean silent zoom and focus (video recording-wise)?
Not sure, I think it is designed for video use though as it has the powered zoom which apparently works much better for video than a ring for video. There is a new longer zoom as well with the same thing.
Can't see why it's any better than the Pen cameras. They now have silent focus lenses for video.
Smaller sensor, worse high ISO performance, costs more.. surely just for Nikon [s]fanbois[/s] brand loyalists?
Well the DxOMark scores above suggests worse ISO performance but better dynamic range and better colour depth, so it may come down to what you like to take pics of. The few preview reviews I've seen suggest the autofocus is rather good on the Nikon too.
surely just for Nikon [s]fanbois[/s] brand loyalists?
Brand loyalty makes a degree of sense tho (beyond simple fanboism) - the controls and output will be similar across the models, you can share some accessories and lenses, and you can use the same software workflow to deal with the images.
Personally I'd love a really capable Nikon compact to compliment my D80 - not sure if this is it though. I'll wait for more definitive reviews.
At low iso the nikon sensor does better the olympus. So a tie I guess.
Given that the olympus sensor is 3 years old and the crappy sensor is an ongoing gripe from users I don't think Nikon has much to be proud of in this respect.
Personally I'd love a really capable Nikon compact to compliment my D80 - not sure if this is it though. I'll wait for more definitive reviews.
As Nikon use sony sensors in most of their dslrs you could just buy the Nex7 and pretend it's a Nikon. 😉
It's what Nikon [i]should[/i] have made.
As Nikon use sony sensors in most of their dslrs you could just buy the Nex7 and pretend it's a Nikon.
True, though that would sort of fail on all the points I made regarding brand loyalty. 🙂
Incidentally it sounds like the Nikon 1 sensor was developed by Nikon, so perhaps they are starting to bring sensor design in-house?
Good interview with a Nikon guy here that covers a few of the design decisions:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1316730752.html
That's the first time I've ever seen anyone admit brand loyalty. Well done. I think.
I get it with new dslrs, but why a completely different system? It's not like you'll be reusing lenses or even having familiar ergonomics.
Incidentally it sounds like the Nikon 1 sensor was developed by Nikon, so perhaps they are starting to bring sensor design in-house?
If that's the best they can do you'd better hope not.
GrahamS - MemberPersonally I'd love a really capable Nikon compact to compliment my D80 - not sure if this is it though. I'll wait for more definitive reviews.
GrahamS - have you seen this.....?
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikonp7100/
If they have sorted out the issues of the P7000, this could be a great camera.
I am tempted, depending on how the price comes down as I'll be able to use my flash with it.
It is a similar size to the Canon G series of cameras though and seeing one of those the other week in Dixon's at the airport it didn't look terribly compact sat next to cameras like the Panasonic TZ-20.
I get it with new dslrs, but why a completely different system? It's not like you'll be reusing lenses
Well they offer an F mount adapter, so you [i]can[/i] actually reuse lenses.
And I'm guessing it can probably work in Commander mode for Nikon flashes.
But my main motivation would be workflow. I process RAWs in Nikon's (superb) CaptureNX, so sticking with Nikon would mean I wouldn't have to buy and learn some other software.
If that's the best they can do you'd better hope not.
Really? Very fast phase detection AF embedded on the sensor with 73 AF points, capable of shooting at 10fps with tracking AF and 60fps fixed AF (fastest in the world)?
I don't think they've done [i]too[/i] badly!
stumpy01: yeah (in fact I mentioned it earlier in the thread 🙂 ) it does look rather nice.
The best comment on Nikon 1 I have seen is [url= http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2011/09/micro-43-is-the-big-kahuna.html ]here.[/url] Essentially, it is that the big winner from the Nikon announcement is micro-4/3.
But my main motivation would be workflow. I process RAWs in Nikon's (superb) CaptureNX, so sticking with Nikon would mean I wouldn't have to buy and learn some other software.
Yeah, that's a mighty fine reason. Lack of e-p2 support on DXO is an ongoing irritation for me.