[Closed] Petrol Prices........

electric ambulance for you drac?

Whilst some of me agrees in principle with what TJ is saying, planned change is much better than forced change.
From other threads it has been debated and a common theme is that we need to keep growth in the economy to avoid recession. If we now hike taxes on fuel will we not stunt growth over the whole of society, impacting the poorest families.

electric ambulance for you drac?

Probably not make it to the hospital and if it did we'd have to wait 24 hour for it to charge.

Whilst some of me agrees in principle with what TJ is saying, planned change is much better than forced change.
From other threads it has been debated and a common theme is that we need to keep growth in the economy to avoid recession. If we now hike taxes on fuel will we not stunt growth over the whole of society, impacting the poorest families.

Absolutely, but people have a lot of inertia and most of them won't change their ways until they're made to.

[s]As a small incidental those who say push up fuel prices might like this one. At a rough estimate it every penny increase per litre costs about £300 per year more just for my station alone. Which is the roughly equivalent of one transport to hospital.[/s]

Ooops I messed my equation right up. I timed by 52 (weeks) instead of 12 (months) so it £66 per year.

😳

Sorry, TJ's approach is bollocks, and the worst of the socialist "we know whats best for you" totalitarian top down tell the proles what to do, know your place, shite

If petrol gets sparse and expensive then it will naturally limit supply and cause changes in use over time, nobody has suggested for one second that it will suddenly disapper tomorrow, Mad Max was a work of fiction, not a documentary.

we've already seen huge changes in use and improvements in technology to counter this gradual change - it happens slowly, but it takes place, but as was said, it took us 50 years to get here, its will take 25 to change - that will happen of itself.

Petrol is artificially expensive because we tax the **** out of it, simple as.

If petrol gets more expensive, then thats life, and we will see alternative technologies come forward as they become more viable - I'm all for government reducing taxes for alternative technologies - but the change does not need to be foistered upon people, it happens of its own accord, and over time.

but people have a lot of inertia and most of them won't change their ways until they're made to.

Yep, but if petrol gets sparser, then it becomes more expensive, and that makes them change

I'm sorry TJ, but maybe you ought to consider taking these off.

People like living where they do out of choice, and thankfully you have no control over that aspect of those individuals lives.

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so zulu - you would rather react to events rather than anticipate and make change planned and easy.

BTW - my approach is nothing to do with socialism and socialism and totalitarianism are different things

Bikebouy - can you explain why I should have to pay more tax to subsidise your wifes parents lifestyle?

awhiles - still need the recharging points - I have not noticed many standard sockets on the road

Or they could implement a battery swapping scheme where you effectively rent a battery then swap it when it's flat. I think they've got a trial scheme running in Israel or somewhere.

so thats massively increasing the amount of raw materials needed to manufacture batteries, that means the batteries will need to all be interchangable and have you seen the size of a decent car electric battery to say nothing of the cost of it

make change planned and easy

i) Change is never easy
ii) Yes, we'll all work in the factory the government tell us to, live in the house they tell us to, and marry someone from the town we were born in, grow up in, and die in.

I'll tell you this TJ - hows about you explain to someones kids why nanny and grandad cannot visit more often, because petrol has been artificially hiked up, because thats whats good for them 🙄

Yep, but if petrol gets sparser, then it becomes more expensive, and that makes them change

Yes, that's what I meant- they'll change when they have to, but isn't the problem the situation they'll be in then? Everything still set up for car dependence, but with no car? I think TJ's point is that it might be wise to anticipate this rather than just wait for the penny to drop.

Bikebouy - can you explain why I should have to pay more tax to subsidise your wifes parents lifestyle?

Because people want to exercise their right to live wherever they want, without accepting that there is a responsibility attached to those rights. A responsibility to appreciate that their future situation may change and a responsibility to fork out for that change should it arrive.

My parents moved to a small market town and chose to live within five mins walk of the town centre inc. local shops, amenities and PT links. They recognised there would be a time when they couldn't drive and did what they could to mitigate it. Many people don't think long term...

can you explain why I should have to pay more tax to subsidise your wifes parents lifestyle

To be fair TJ, I've been asking [b]you[/b] this very same question every time we've discussed public sector wages and pensions, and you've never once come up with an explanation on why I should pay more tax to subsidise [b]your[/b] lifestyle 😉

I don't like ratcheting up fuel prices indiscriminately. Because people will only change when they are absolutely forced to, and they will only make the minimum. The end result will that everyone apart from high earners will be just about struggling to manage. Which is pretty crap for quality of life.

It works economically, but not in social terms. Just like a free job market where employers reduce salaries to the bare minimum.

I would rather see a positive incentive to avoid fuel usage. So give you something good if you improve rather than something crap if you don't.

To be fair TJ, I've been asking you this very same question every time we've discussed public sector wages and pensions, and you've never once come up with an explanation on why I should pay more tax to subsudise your lifestyle

And the answer is the same, we all pay the tax even bikebouy's parents.

there is a responsibility attached to those rights. A responsibility to appreciate that their future situation may change and a responsibility to fork out for that change should it arrive.

Ok, so let that change arrive, and let them take that responsibility - thats not what we're talking about is it though, we're talking about the government forcing that change on them because "thats whats best for them"

the proletariat should know their place!

Drac - If I give you a tenner, and you give me a fiver back, then have you paid half your own wages 😉

Molgrips - spot on, even as a right winger, I agree fully with that.

[b]Its funny that those on here who are normally the first to critisise regressive taxation seem to be the first to defend fuel taxes... [/b]

molgrips - like others you are ignoring the other side of this

Use the money raised from increasing the cost of petrol to smooth the way. Ie subsidise public transport, maybe subsidise village shops, maybe some transitional relief for food transport, that sort of thing.

I am also talking about a gradualist approach over 25 years

Zulu - I see debating reasonably got beyond you

TJ - I see you're still not going to answer that question on why I should pay more tax to subsidise your lifestyle 😉

its a reasonable question - and its one that you asked of someone else.

TJ can you answer what would happen if just the UK raised fuel prices. Would we still be able to export goods and services competitively?
Would the poorer section of society be able to pay for food? that would be hit by transport costs.
What about those in Fuel poverty?

Bikepawl - we would have a large pot of money to smooth out undesirable effects such as you mention

we would have a large pot of money to smooth out undesirable effects

😯

😆

TandemJeremy - Member
Bikepawl - we would have a large pot of money to smooth out undesirable effects such as you mention

But there has been a change already. Look how many people now drive cars which easily get 50+mpg and when the decision is made on which car to buy, a huge part of that decision (for most people) is the running costs. The Government has already put measures in place via the 'Road fund/tax' and fuel duty to discourage gas guzzlers and unnecessary 4x4 use. It's had a limited effect but has made many manufacturers produce vehicles which have far less emissions.

It's a shame that only a tiny % of the taxation goes towards more sustainable energy use or research and it's cloud cuckoo land to think that [b]any[/b] government is going to set aside the money gained to use in any transition. Even then, they will screw it up. Edinburgh trams anyone?

It will be a natural and measured change when it eventually happens and will be dictated by prices rather than any direct social engineering.

there's been a good alternative means of individual transport around for a very long time. it's called a motorcycle or scooter. they're more efficient ( unless built specifically for fun! ), and are well suited to the travel of single individuals, which still comprise most car journeys, but look at the take-up rate. a lot of people could ditch their cars and move to them if they wanted to, and it would make riding them safer for everyone if they did.
chap who sits next to me at work, who i discussed this with yesterday, conceeded that the price of fuel was changing his behaviour. he lives 30miles away in a little hamlet - his choice for sure, but he's started putting his bike in the back of his van, and cycles in the last 1/3 of his journey 3 or 4 times a week. he was remarking a few weeks ago at the amount of money that this was saving him straight away. i wonder how long it will be before he thinks about selling up and moving closer to work. there are plenty of nice places to live within the range of our workplace that will be viable for him.
another chap at work is looking at not replacing his old nail. they ( him and his misses ) have a 'nice' car, but work very close to each other, and he's started riding his bike in too.
rising prices will change the way people look at things, but usually the only way to effectively chnage behaviour is to hit people's wallets. people's choices are being effected now. it's a good thing. who really sees the sense in us spending 'our' time propelling ourselves around the countryside in little metal boxes, when we could be doing something more enjoyable, and instead of frittering all this money away, spending it sensibly on champange and hookers?

there was an article on the battery swap tech for electric cars a year or so ago in Wired. trials in isreal and denmark IIRC. renault were involved with a modified version of the megane. problem looking for a solution i think TBH.

if you intergrated the ( much improved one hopes ) train network with push bikes, motorbikes and rental services you could actually preserve a lot of people's choice.

sooner or later though bikebuoy your wife's parents are going to have to move. they have a choice right now. i might like to drive a ferrari but i can't afford one. should the public at large fund ferrari as a public enterprise so we can all have one?

Typical Nu-Labour solution innit TJ?

we'll tax you to ****, then put in a hugely complex system of administration and paperwork of a means tested benefit, employing thousands of civil servants, just to give you back some of the money we've taken off you 👿

Tell you what - how's about you just don't bother in the first place, and let us decide how we'd like to spend our money?

But judging by the hour it took me to drive 7 miles last night there's still way too many people prepared to travel short distances by car all the time. I would have cycled but I had to go to City-Link to pick up a parcel and I didn't know how big it was.

Zulu eleven

Do you really want to resurrect those poxy threads which have been done to death [b]AGAIN[/b]???

This thread isn't about public sector pensions, or that type of political agenda 🙄

Yet another top down totalitarian masterplan from the Oracle. Is their any question that you dont have the answer to at your fingertips TJ? Any of those solutions involve leaving me the hell alone?

Woody - its a fairly simple question of psychology, that Mcboo lays down quite nicely in is his post above.

<bows out>

Yet another top down totalitarian masterplan from the Oracle. Is their any question that you dont have the answer to at your fingertips TJ? Any of those solutions involve leaving me the hell alone?

What do you propose instead?
Electricity is made mostly from mineral hydrocarbons.
Road fuel is made mostly from mineral hydrocarbons.

The idea that we can simply switch to electric cars and carry on as we are is a utopian fantasy.

Zulu

I realise what 'it' was and I actually agree with your sentiments but I'm going to do the same as you and bow out before it degenerates even more and TJ becomes increasingly frustrated at others inability to agree with him.

All this high minded future thinking rather misses the point.

Currently our economy is based upon free movement of goods and people. The cost of this movement is stifling growth and needs to be looked at.

A short term cut in fuel duty (or the VAT on fuel) could help us avoid a double dip recession

I agree in the longer term society need to address it reliance on individual transport but we need to address the current economic issues first

Woody - its a fairly simple question of psychology

Indeed it is. do you believe in fairness and sharing or do you believe might is right and that those with the power can grab as much as they want of the resources leaving the people without power to scrabble over what is left.

Mcboo

What is your solution to the impending energy crisis?

TJ

You really are wasted on this forum.

You should be sat on a mountaintop (without web access) and world leaders can come and consult you when there is a major issue which needs addressing. 😉

Drac - If I give you a tenner, and you give me a fiver back, then have you paid half your own wages

Use your simple format it's a case of you give me £2.50 and I give myself £2.50 out of my previous months wage. Like I said many a time we all pay tax not just those in the private sector. By purchasing certain goods and paying taxes we all pay each others wage. It's people love the "I'm a tax payer I pay your wages argument".

What is your solution to the impending energy crisis?

build more power stations, there's no shortage of fuel.

coal? - loads of it.

gas? - loads of it.

oil? - loads of it.

uranium? - loads of it.

and given half a chance:

thorium? - loads of it.

isotopes of hydrogen? - practically limitless.

And to keep the hippies happy: chuck up tens of thousands of wind turbines, piss about with some wave-power prototypes, and wear hemp-fibre trousers.

build more power stations, there's no shortage of fuel.

True. However, there is a shortage of fuel that can be extracted at current prices. We can carry on burning hydrocarbons (if we want to have a very warm planet) but expect to pay a lot more for it.

build more power stations, there's no shortage of fuel

The guff emitted on this thread alone could power half of China's industrial output for a month. If only we cold harness it

Mcboo

What is your solution to the impending energy crisis?

Thats the thing.....I dont have all the answers, I'm not Thomas Jefferson. So I dont presume to shout about subjects I'm only half informed on and tell everybody else how to live.

right - so you will shout me down in a pretty offensive and patronising manner because I have an[i] opinion[/i] on how to solve the impending crisis but you actually have admitted to no knowledge or even opinions to offer instead.

How do you know I am wrong?

Nor am I telling people how to live - I am suggesting a way forward to make the transition easier.

Hey you might be right. But could you be wrong? About this, or anything?

so you will shout me down in a pretty offensive and patronising manner because I have an opinion