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Granted that doesn't solve all the storage issue but it is a way of generating large amounts of energy.
No it is not! it might be in the future sometime but now - its pie in the sky - not even close to being a practicable realisable tech.
I am not ignorant. I am realistic.
Fusion - its no where near ready and I don't believe it ever will be.
Do you not believe a 'transporter' system from Star Trek or high speed space flight will EVER be viable ?
IT's completely insane what you're saying.
Look at technology in 100 year past. We'd only just invented cars 100 or so years ago. Bicycles were made of wood and flying was a new technology. We can now fly faster than the speed of sound (by quite a lot actually), we've been to the moon (maybe) and are debating a manned flight to Mars...
However you think fusion technology will NEVER happen ?
Come on...seriously ?
No- its completely insane to think that battery tech and fusion will suddenly magically become viable when there is no sign at all of it happening. No one has demonstrated a battey with anything like the capacity needed
No one has ever made a stable fusion generator on any scale yet.
ten years is the sort of timescale that we need to be looking at to start implementing the solutions -we need it all in place with 25 years.
To move to fusion and electic cars is a huge infrastructure development 0- it can't be done overnight
tens of millions of charging points needed for starters
Agree totally... but there's a huge difference between 25 years and never.
No-one is trying to say it will be a week on Friday...
Whoah there - [b]Fusion?[/b] you're making a bit of a leap arent you TJ.
No reason we can't use existing clean forms of electricity production (nuclear, wind, wave etc) to make Hydrogen and fuel hydrogen fuel cells.
I really don't know where you get the "storage and manufacture too difficult" - its no more difficult than storing LPG and there are Hydrogen powered vehicles out there at the moment - generation isnt a problem, we just need plenty of electricity to do it.
proven technology that we could start pushing tomorrow, easy to refuel and maintain our current lifestyles without dependence on hydrocarbons.
Hear that - [b]maintain our current lifestyles[/b] in a clean and efficient fashion - no need for all the painful changes you're trying to impose on everybody.
The Win-Win scenario.
...Electric cars will never be able to do what petrol ones do - simply not enough energy storage...
maybe true, but they'll get close enough for most people to not really notice much difference.
you can buy battery cars that'll do 100 miles per charge, and recharge in about an hour.
this is fine for city driving: less than 100 miles
and not too bad for distance driving: drive for 2 hours, have a coffee/pee/rest repeat.
someday soon we'll see a battery-exchange system trialled; where batteries will be swapped over in minutes.
it's not going to happen tomorrow, partly because there's so much more profitable oil to sell first*...
(*there really is loads left, 3,000,000,000,000 barrels is a good estimate. it's enough to last 100 years at the current rate of consumption. Assuming we can wean ourselves off the stuff - we'll still be burning oil in 200 years, we've got plenty of time to adapt)
Fusion - others said that was the solution not me.
Hydrogen - very difficult to store and move - far more so than LPG. Put hydrogen in a steel tank and it will escape. Fuel cells - where are you going to get the rare raw materials from to make them on the scale needed?
I think hydrogen could be a part of the solution to power generation - like a scaled up version of the unst project but it will never be viable as a fuel source for cars in the time-scale needed.
you can buy battery cars that'll do 100 miles per charge, and recharge in about an hour.
Any links?
nissan leaf.
100 miles, and a recharege time of about an hour does not sound great.
But, it's good enough for most journeys, and not even that bad for long distance stuff.
and in 10 years it'll be a bit better, and etc.
LHS - what electric car does that?
Nissan Leaf, that new Renault Fluence.
No one has ever made a stable fusion generator on any scale yet.
They're building a number of reactors around the world, France, Japan and the USA.
They said you can't generate the heat to start a fusion reaction.
Done.
They said you can't control it within a magnetic field
Done.
They said you can't generate Nuclear Fusion in a controlled fashion.
Done.
Don't limit your views based on what you don't know!
So do we move nearer to work or nearer to the good trails? THAT is the real delema
tens of millions of charging points needed for starters
ahem:
[img] http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSERid9UBE7MPCbMu3nLyAXjGtMYo7NOiZHEzm79wYNqFMI1DS_ [/img]
they're not ideal; they can't handle the high currents needed for rapid-recharge.
but if you can park your car in the garage, and leave it overnight, you can get 100miles worth of 'fuel' for about £1.
Do you not believe a 'transporter' system from Star Trek or high speed space flight will EVER be viable ?
I don't. It's not always just a matter of giving it more time.
LHS so who has made a stable electricity generating fusion plant?
The nissan leaf quick recharge is 3 phase is it not and will shorten battery life, its not a full recharge anyway and its real range is nowhere near 100 miles.
recharging it off a standard socket is 10 - 20 hrs
awhiles - still need the recharging points - I have not noticed many standard sockets on the road
Hear that - maintain our current lifestyles in a clean and efficient fashion - no need for all the painful changes you're trying to impose on everybody.The Win-Win scenario.
Dunno about that. However they're powered, millions of cars dominating the country and jamming up the roads is not A Good Thing IMO.
TJ the latest Tesla or Karma electric cars will and do have ranges of up to 300 miles (depending on which battery you choose). These are big saloons but cost appox the same/ a little more as equivalent BMW/Merc/Audi. They have all the range 99.9% of people require and will be less cost to the end user once you take the petrol out of the equation. Once the large companies get into this area (VW golf in 2013) economies of scale will bring costs down (already most new cars are designed for multiple power sources -electric/hybrid/petrol/diesel) we just have to get over our skeptism as consumers and buy them - this is largely why they are not being made. However I think that reasonable range (50miles or so) hybrids/range extenders will be the way the car market goes in the next 10-20years.
As for our power needs. Yes fuel/electricity is going to become more costly but alternative techs fusion/nuclear/renewablable will take over as they become cost effective to fosil fuels (they are just not a sustainable business at the moment).
Fusion - the utlra high power lasers are going close to generating energy. As a scientist I feel that eventually we will find a way to fusion - it just takes a huge amount of time and effort.
...so who has made a stable electricity generating fusion plant?...
we're* building it now! 🙂
[url= http://www.iter.org/ ]www.iter.org[/url]
(*Europe)
LHS so who has made a stable electricity generating fusion plant?
No one.
Good to see armchair scientists at work here. All speculation and random verbalisation in conversation. All good, not didmissing any points but in reality, current reality, that affects everyone here and there..
The need to cut fuel duty. And after last nights debates it looks like it'll happen. I hope that 110000 online petition is enough to sway the current political format, but I fear if the petition was widely known and promoted it would surely have gotten more votes. I voted.
The real point should be why do we have to be taxed 2/3rds on goods we buy, it's the only "product" that is treated this way.
Can we ignore the "not enough money for Edinburgh's tram system to go further than the end of Princess St" please and bring back the basic need for people to move around, now, freely.
Shall we.
Cos' my wifes parents can't afford to get in thier car from rural Harrogate and go fetch some shopping.
Think local not global for a change, think about how it affects you and your family.
LHS - Member"LHS so who has made a stable electricity generating fusion plant?"
No one.
Point made. In the timescales we need this to happen fusion cannot be apart of the answer
awhiles - still need the recharging points - I have not noticed many standard sockets on the road
my point is this:
for lots and lots of people, battery cars are ALREADY a viable option.
they're cheap to run, and lots and lots of people already have the means to recharge them at home.
it's already happened.
stupid double post.
bikebouy - I ask you again - how are you going to fund the road network and why do you believe non drivers should further subsidise drivers? Why should it cost me money so your wifes parents can live an unsustainable lifestyle?
An electric charging point has appeared at the leisure centre just down the road from me, never seen anyone using it yet though but it's a start I suppose.
...how are you going to fund the road network and why do you believe non drivers should further subsidise drivers? Why should it cost me money so your wifes parents can live an unsustainable lifestyle?...
aren't we always banging on about how cars don't pay road-tax - roads are paid for out of our council tax?
and aren't we always banging on about how roads are there for people/bikes/horses? - cars needing a license to use them?
we all use roads - even people without cars.
roads are ace.
'challenging' fuel issues will force cars/vehicles to become lighter, road wear will reduce, maintenance costs will come down.
at the moment, battery cars are fine for the '2 car household' where they also have a petrol car. The trouble is that they are a bit pricey
In the next 10 years I don't see why hydrogen won't be the tech to use. It can be seen as just a way of storing electricity. Production hydrogen cars already exist, it wouldn't take much in the way of tax incentive (lets say - fuel stations with hydrogen pumps don't have to pay the latest increase on fuel duty - that'd get them built pretty quick) to get a network of filling stations built.
Interestingly, I wonder what the environmental impact of thousands of tonnes of water vapour being released in central london will be..
for lots and lots of people, battery cars are ALREADY a viable option
As much as I wish it were the case, I don't think it is. Have you seen the prices? You cannot justify the purchase on grounds of economy given the usage patterns they need.
Point made. In the timescales we need this to happen fusion cannot be apart of the answer
😯
What do you mean point made? There is no point made at all.
What timescales are you referring too? Is the world suddenly going to run of electricity in the next 25 years.
Are you privvy to some information the rest of us are not?
Have you seen the prices?
much of the purchase price is for the lovely exotic stuff in the battery.
which will be worth loads even when it's knackered.
second-hand prices will be interesting...
Roads are maintained by Council Tax, proven (a million times over, with major routes maintained by COunty Council via both Council Tax and Govt funding), no need to hammer that particular point anylonger thank you Mr City dweller.
As for my wifes parents moving, nope, thier choice to live where they wish as is yours to live in the city.
You pay council tax don't you? Ahh good, I see you have a motor vehicle of some sort too, good, then you use the roads and transport facilities, good, facilities that should be open to all.
I think you need to get out more.
As for my wifes parents moving, nope, thier choice to live where they wish as is yours to live in the city.
It's their choice to rely on their car so much then. Obviously people have the right to live where they want but they don't have the right to be free of the problems that go with that.
LHS - we need the replacement for the petrol driven car to be in place in 25 years or less as oil will be running out then and oil will be prohibitivly expensive. Fusion will not be viable in that timescale. Fusion cannot be a part of the solution. Point made.
Bikebouy - so you want me to pay more tax so your wifes parents have to pay less.
5lab - how are you going to solve the issues of Hydrogen storage and transport? You still have to have the elecrrcity to create split water to get the hydrogen.
313mpg. Would that help a bit?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/volkswagen/8293372/Volkswagen-XL1-review.html
we need the replacement for the petrol driven car to be in place in 25 years or less as oil will be running out then and oil will be prohibitivly expensive.
nah, the canadians have realised just how much money they can make out of the tar sands, they'll continue to rape their wilderness for money, and we'll burn the oil they sell us.
you may not like it*, but that's what going to happen.
and when Alberta has been scraped back to the magma, we'll move onto Saskatchewan/Montana/Dakota/blackpool**...
There is simply loads of oil left - and it's profitable at $115/barrel.
(*i don't, but that won't stop everyone else buying/burning the stuff)
(**pathetic attempt at humour)
stumpy - thats the sort of realist direction for a stop gap solution.
All this talk of electric cars misses a fundamental point. There is no plausible scenario in which we could generate enough electricity to power our road vehicles as well as our homes and factories.
The unpalatable truth is that we need to significantly reduce energy demand.
LHS - we need the replacement for the petrol driven car to be in place in 25 years or less as oil will be running out then and oil will be prohibitivly expensive. Fusion will not be viable in that timescale. Fusion cannot be a part of the solution. Point made
I thought latest estimates were that we had recoverable oil reserves equating to approximately 60 years, with countries like Canada, Venezuela and Iraq having recoverable reserves of over 120 years. Thats with current extraction technology which can on average only pump out a fraction of what is actually there.
Developing fusion in the next 15-20 years gives us plenty of time.
indeed ransos - and petrol is going to get more an more expensive. Anyone who thinks we can carry on as we are doing into the future is sadly mistaken and hiding from reality.
There is a lot of this going on
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Nice wheels stumpy. Thats the great thing about the future....it's really exciting.
Get off your bloody high horse TJ.
To move to fusion and electic cars is a huge infrastructure development 0- it can't be done overnighttens of millions of charging points needed for starters
If you would actually bother to read other peoples posts, you would see that many have pointed out that that their will be a 'shift' in travelling needs as necessary to accommodate changes. That can take many forms, from the possible use of electric cars, to delivery vehicles and whatever else is available as and when the time comes. Hydrocarbons are a dwindling source and there will be a period of adjustment, probably naturally via the spiralling cost, and this, along with other transport and logistic options will evolve to a sustainable point.
Ever heard the phrase, necessity is the mother of invention?
We absolutely MUST massively increase distance working.
How many of you need to physically be at the place you work? TJ of course, who else? I sure as hell don't. In fact as I type I am also having a work conversation via sametime....
Woody - most people on here seem to be saying that some new tech will come along that means no adjustment is needed or flatly denying there is an issue. No high horse at all from me - just a realistic attitude to teh massive changes needed
Hydrocarbons are a dwindling source and there will be a period of adjustment (probably naturally via the spiralling cost).
I would like to do this adjustment in a controlled and planned manner - anticipating the changes not waiting to be forced. My preferred mechanism for doing this is to ratchet up fuel prices and use the money generated to smooth the changes needed.
I believe people massively underestimate the scale of the change needed
I like going to work. I dont want to work from home and I'm not going to.
How many of you need to physically be at the place you work?
Yup and have to use diesel to do it too.
I don't either.. i could work 5 days a week from home.. not sure the bosses agree fully although they are quite flexible.