there have been times when I literally could not get from my front door to the road without walking along to a junction because of parked cars ;lining the road.
That's some pretty tight parking. How do they get in and out?
I thought you were a firm advocate of walking short distances?
In any case, you are (once again) assuming that you = everyone. It is not. Where I live parking can be a bunfight when the nearby chippy is open, but beyond that it's a non-issue here.
I do not park my bike on the street.
But you ride it on the street, taking up space. Why is it fine when it's moving and a problem when it's stationary? What do you do at traffic lights, roll back and forth so as not to deprive someone else of the space you're taking up?
Your VED pays for the time you are driving.
No it doesn't. If it did (which it doesn't) it'd be variable depending how much driving I did. Arguably fuel tax could, expect it also doesn't (like VED doesn't, did I mention that?) because it all goes into general taxation.
What about cars with zero VED? Freeloading bastards.
(Joking aside, I can't believe that on a cycling forum you of all people are using the "road tax" argument.)
I am only talking about the time your car spends parked taking up public land belonging to all
You're talking about something you've invented which suits your personal agenda, around which you've bent everything else (including "facts") to fit. Everything you like is Good and everything you don't like is Bad.
Ironically we're starting to lose a perfect tax as you go system, fuel duty. Drive more pay more, drive in congested places pay more, drive like a tit (inefficiently) pay more, drive a big engine car, pay more. Its perfect and extremely difficult to avoid paying, plus the fuel industry pays to collect it. Electric vehicles are going to blow it out of the water.
Anyway, pay to park on the road, great idea, I hate people parking on the road, I don't, utterly impractical and hits the low income households the most. In the north west terraced housing is the norm, councils have been ignoring the ever growingnissues of on street parking for years. Anyway nowt is going to change with our current political system, unless a fair proportion on the population is disenfranchised there's no hope.
You’re talking about something you’ve invented
I first read of the concept a decade ago. Its certainly not my invention. But then these issues interest me and thus I look into them in depth
so cougar - as i do not own a car do you think it reasonable I put a car sized storage box in the street so I get my share of this public space?
As an aside, if we're considering free / paid on-street parking away from residential areas,
Accrington town centre is free parking. Always has been. Hyndburn BC flirted once with a parking scheme. It killed the already ailing town centre stone dead overnight because everyone went to Blackburn / Burnley instead. Free parking was about the only thing it still had going for it.
One size does not fit all.
did you actually use the public transport? I have a fair amount.
Yes ..... I've also used it in the Eastern bloc Africa , Australia USA and Canada.
They all suffer the same fault. If your not in the major cities it just doesn't exist in at a usable level - much like here.
But if you took Edinburgh, Copenhagen Amsterdam, Paris, stravanger London , San Francisco, Perth (aus) and Calgary and called it a country you'd have utopia.
as i do not own a car do you think it reasonable I put a car sized storage box in the street so I get my share of this public space?
It's a public road, it's nowt to do with me. You've paid for a permit from the council I assume?
This is where your argument falls down. You posit that VED covers "driving" but it's demonstrably bollocks because VED - even a £0 VED - is required for a car to be on the road at all. Without VED (and valid insurance) it has to be taken off-road and a SORN declaration applied for. Non-vehicles such as skips require authorisation also, you can't legally just dump shit on the road.
Ironically we’re starting to lose a perfect tax as you go system, fuel duty.
I'm not convinced by this. Fuel duty doesn't stop the person who only drives 500 yards to drop their kids off at school, but is a huge contributor to local pollution and congestion.
Far better, IMHO, is a sliding scale based on GPS that starts off at a relatively high price (with multipliers for inner city / rush hour etc) which then reduces exponentially as journey length increases. Ultra-short journeys get a 10x cost multiplier. If someone has to pay £10 for their journey to the newsagent then they might think about walking next time.
do you think it reasonable I put a car sized storage box in the street so I get my share of this public space?
You don't personslly have a right to an on street parking space, they are for everyone to use for parking only. I think you're pushing the wrong argument here it's not making a lot of sense. Same for everyone leading it down this path tbh not just TJ.
Ironically we’re starting to lose a perfect tax as you go system, fuel duty
It's not perfect cos it's regressive. Rich people can easily afford to pay it to get 10 miles to work whereas for poor people who need a job and the only one is in the next town it's far more of a burden.
VED is based on your cars emissions, so yes, as TJ states it applies to when you’re driving. If you’re not driving you’re not emitting
Well I'd half hoped the price rise might have calmed the traffic down a touch.
I've been working in EC3 (London) today.
Getting out has proven a challenge. Not worked in London on a Sat for a while and had forgotten the pain and sheer quantity of the private cars.
In the week it's definitely more trade/HGV.
Id love to use the train but the kit required to do the job is very bulky and would not be possible.
Currently having a break from the traffic and a sandwich at the BP on the A4.
VED is based on your cars emissions,
And yet I - and many others have cars than do emit .....yet pay no tax ?
It is a teeny tiny little buzz box with barely room for the kids toilet bag in the boot.... But it's zero tax and has emissions
No – making those who use public land pay for that usage
Right.... So you should pay to walk on pavements then?!!
Sheesh 🤷🏻♂️
I think folk are not understanding the concept of paying for parking on public land
Its not the same as walking on pavements or any of the other comparators used because those things do not prevent others using the road space nor do they restrict others lives in the same way
when you cannot safely cross a road because of parked vehicles, when you cannot get to the road from your house. When large amounts of public land are monopolised 24/7 365 by a minority then its only right they should pay for that usage
If you can park your car for free outside my house why can I not park a storage box there?
VED is based on your cars emissions, so yes, as TJ states it applies to when you’re driving. If you’re not driving you’re not emitting
When my car is parked it's not putting out any emissions. Yet I still need VED if it's parked in public.
Electric vehicles won't be on cheap electricity for long. I've been told by a charge point manufacturer that there is hard coded in a meter so that you can be charged more per kw/h for charging your ev than general household usage.
Also all these 2.4-3 ton vehicles are going to have an impact on the condition of the roads surely?
I'm not seeing many small ev's. Surely lighter and smaller is the way to go?
Cycling in Shrewsbury is fine, but only on a bike I pulled out of a skip, would I chain a bike worth over £250 in the town centre, no chance. Secure free bike lockers in a manned area would be great.
I'm always amazed working in London how many large cards and suv there are, so obviously the taxation isn't enough! I'm not looking forward to the increase in fuel and tax, it'll make driving to the coast to go windsurfing an even more expensive hobby, maybe I'll have to go for a good few days at a time!
I’m not seeing many small ev’s. Surely lighter and smaller is the way to go?
This isn't an EV thread but the batteries take up a lot of space so you need a bigger vehicle. There are small EVs but they have tiny range.
I think folk are not understanding the concept of paying for parking on public land
Don't confuse a lack of agreement with a lack of comprehension.
If you can park your car for free outside my house why can I not park a storage box there?
I can park there because I'm licensed via the VED that you yourself brought up (and mandatory insurance).
You can put your storage box there via a licence from the local council.
Again, neither of us can just dump shit on a public street with gay abandon, be that my car or your hypothetical car-shaped box.
More lanes = more cars = more congestion = the idea that you can build another lane to “relieve congestion” = more lanes = more cars…
Well it worked for the A9. Partly Dualled in the 1970s. Still not over capacity. Still slowed down on the single sections.
A82 Balloch bypass. Took much traffic away from Renton and Alexandia. Still not over capacity decades later.
A82 Great Western Rd Glasgow west of Anniesland. Built as a 6 lane road in the 1920s it is still not over capacity. Because it was built with enough capacity it today can have a parking lane or bus lane and still have 2 lanes each direction for cars.
More lanes doesn't mean more cars (because who thinks "ooh, they've put an extra lane on the A1234, time to buy a car!), but it's not necessarily better for congestion because you could build a 30-lane highway and everyone would sit nose-to-tail in lane 29.
If you can park your car for free outside my house why can I not park a storage box there?
Nothing stopping you parking a trailer there (outside of local bylaws and HOA contracts)
How long you'll have it for before someone removes it on your behalf is another thing
More lanes doesn’t mean more cars
Yes it does.
[ I’ll post evidence after you have ]
I've saved £26 in petrol this week by driving to work on Tuesday and riding the rest of the week before driving home this evening. I am quite tired though.
Would paying to park on the road in Edinburgh/Glasgow be generally "fair" across income brackets?
I've lived quite some time in Headingley/Burley (Leeds), Wythenshawe (Manchester) and other "characterful" places, and the people in these deprived areas would be hit as it seems fewer house have off road parking. Conversely, the few "nice" bits I've lived in - or driven through 🙂 - the houses often have drives.
I am quite tired though.
Ebike, ebike, ebike!
Paying for street parking is definitely a thing where there is an issue. Both my brother and sister have to have residents permits where they live (Outer London and Edinburgh). I think it's paid with the council tax. The visitor rates for Edinburgh are about your £10 a day rate and that's with the residents visitor subsidy (if you use the parking meter it's more).
Outside my brothers old house in London there was indeed a large storage box, for bikes, that you could rent a key from the council for. Most of the residents liked it but some complained about the reduced car spaces (terraced street so no off street parking).
In the world of towns, as opposed to cities, the public transport is woeful and cars are much more of a need to have. Parking on residential streets is rarely an issue if away from the town centre so no need for parking permits (except for the slef entitled who park badly everywhere but that's a sort of different issue).
As for retiring out of the city, as mentioned above, you need retired people to live in cities or towns where they can easily get to amenities (walk, hobble or mobility scooter). Being out in the sticks is a nightmare for carers, doctors, etc. and can add to the loneliness problem a lot of older people have.
Ebike, ebike, ebike!
That was with an ebike 🤣
Would paying to park on the road in Edinburgh/Glasgow be generally “fair” across income brackets?
depending on your definition of "fairness" Its not fair to the car drivers but is fair for the non car drivers but any change like this will have losers which is why it needs a 10 - 20 year lead to allow folk time to adapt
A lot of edinburgh is "residents only parking" for which you pay a small fee to get a residents parking permits. This is to prevent commuters parking on these residential streets
What i am suggesting is merely extending this and making it more expensive over a period of many years until the cost of parking is equivalent to the value of the land.
Maybe it shoulkd not be a fixed amount but vary according to the place - so a central london or central Edinburgh parking pass costs a lot whereas in say Hull its a lot less
My only quibble would be ” for some cars are essential” to me its only “essential” because of choices made ie to live away from your work for many folk. Some folk it is essential – district nurses to tradesmen but for most – its a result of choices made
This comment is pretty clueless tbf. Most people don’t have a choice to live close to their place of work due to house prices
Which I may add are hugely driven up by people owning second properties…. Speaking of which tj don’t you own several Edinburgh properties? (Maybe not you, but definitely one regular poster on here)
10 – 20 year lead to allow folk time to adapt
For me, there's merit in the idea - carrots and sticks to enable change.
But I won't be standing near to the politician that says "Listen! I've got a great idea about car parking..." 🙂
do you think it reasonable I put a car sized storage box in the street so I get my share of this public space?
As slowol also noted in London, in Bristol a few streets have chosen to sacrifice a car space for a communal bike locker. Sadly most of the 8 or so bikes in the one near me are never used.
More lanes doesn’t mean more cars (because who thinks “ooh, they’ve put an extra lane on the A1234, time to buy a car!)
Better roads in general do mean more cars, this is very well known. It's because better roads make journey times quicker, that means more distant commutes become viable. When people are choosing jobs or houses they evaluate their commuting options, but they don't do it by distance they do it by time and hassle. Building new roads makes journeys quicker, say from an hour to half an hour, so more people do the journey until congestion makes it an hour again.
In many ways this is a justification for building the new roads. They want more people to be able to get to more jobs because this boosts the economy. Of course there are environmental consequences. The Welsh Government opted not to build the M4 extension which we all want on an immediate level because the M4 around Newport is awful. But they said no, because they don't want to increase car traffic - they are developing a huge integrated PT network instead.
That was with an ebike
🤣
Oh, someone made the point about not being keen on riding to work because it was a busy A road. Another example of … because “we” all drive, the best option is for “me” to drive. Escaping this will be so damn hard, but step one is that everybody needs to see that car dependancy is a trap that we need to help people escape. And never forget the people worst off… those that can not drive in a society where it is assumed that everyone can.
I’m not seeing many small ev’s. Surely lighter and smaller is the way to go?
E-assist velomobiles and ebikes are surely the way to go for individual short journeys where public transport (mass-transit systems) and/or walking/cycling cannot suffice. But … no dedicated infra exists, also confusing class for licensing, and we have been slow with tech because demand has been virtually non-existent since the Sinclair C5 made everyone laugh*
*Not really. Its just been cars, cars, cars. Edit @kelvin, cross-post/edit 🙂
Also, cars answer a lot of questions that no one originally asked. They offer physical security, lockable storage, difficult(ish) to steal and soothe the owner’s brain-bumps by offering a warm/roomy, often air-conditioned home/bubble-from-home. You could even live/sleep in one at a push. Some do by choice. You don’t get those luxuries so much with a velomobile + shared transport. So what? Indeed. Other answers will arrive to actual questions. But these things will also be considerable barriers to switching from old ICE/new EV/big old family car mindsets.
Still a C5 fan (the idea not the execution), but, again, it is the dominance of car use that makes that kind of light transport so unappealing for most people.
Which I may add are hugely driven up by people owning second properties…. Speaking of which tj don’t you own several Edinburgh properties?
I own two small flats. I am an accidental landlord. I rent one out for £150 a month below market rent and I provide a high quality home for someone who wants to rent
tpbiker - its still a choice even if the alternatives are unpalatable. No one is forcing you
TJ non of what your telling me is persuading me to move to the city like im being told i must, sounds truly awful...you need to move my friend
What is an accidental landlord
Surley it is a choice to be one
Accidental land lord.
Someone who ends up with a property they cannot sell (not one that they choose not to sell).
Ie negative equity
Spin it how you like tj, but don’t complain when people use their car to commute because they can’t afford to live local, when you are part of the problem
How am i part of the problem. Someone is living in it at below market rent. Sure its one flat less to buy but its one more to rent and its let cheaply. Its not a holiday let tho i could make 3 times as much if i did.
Accidental landlord in that it was my partners flat bought to live in not a buy to let
I do find it funny when folk have no answer to points raised so make irrelevant personal attacks in stead
Don’t rise to it TJ, they are baiting you into an irrelevant discussion. You having one tenant is irrelevant. Poor bus services, choosing to site offices away from train stations, food shops moving to busy ring roads, new road systems making it slow and awkward to cycle anywhere, building many huge residential areas without linking them to the train network… there are so many important issues… your one flat isn’t one of them.
Aye
The rental btw is less than a mortgage would be on it so its actually making it easier and cheaper for someone to live there
Its not a personal attack , i asked a question,
Maybe i should saylike u do...that im going to takw issue with some of your posts....
Like u have on here....
But anyway....im going to save some electricity and stop reading this