I’ve gone through a restructure and now face a third of my shifts travelling to Newcastle to start work.
Maybe in a few decades when they've finally dualled the A1 it might not be so bad from Alnwick to Newcastle or vice versa..
And how did we become addicted to cars? Neoliberal government policy.
Dr Beeching's report to a Labour government that cars were the future was made in the 1960s, at a time when the Britian was a social democratic country and had enjoyed uninterrupted social democratic governments since WW2.
I actually agree with TJ about the 'No kids' thing as it's one of the reasons I've decided not to have any myself. We can't have everyone not breeding but if a decent section of society decide to not have one or more kids then it will make a difference in the long term.
Outside the ‘life choices’ debate, this fuel cost thing could really see people looking for things they could do to reduce personal car cost/use/whatever, while still travelling when needed.
The touble is everyone will see every journey they make as essential.
Which takes us back to the point made by @TheFlyingOx directly above yours as to how society as a whole has evolved / developed to live like this and how sudden shocks to the system (like the price / availability of oil) will have a huge impact on so many people.
My old job was based away from anywhere that you could reasonably live, surrounded by industrial estates and the really rough parts of Cardiff or the really expensive bits. Out of 60 staff there was only two of us that could reasonably cycle to work, public transport was out as the buses didn't start running until after we had started! Driving was pretty much the only option for most, it wasn't something they could cut down on. All down to where work was. Try changing that en masse.
The other issue is lots of decisions on public transport are taken with a 9-5 view of the week, leading to massive holes in coverage for shift workers and the like. It's the same on weekends round me too. To solve all of this we would really have to rebuild out towns and cities in a massive scaleabd there just isn't the time or impetus to do it, plus construction generated a massive amount of pollution as it is so no real net gain.
It's a problem we've ignored as a species for too long and I fear it's too late now.
Maybe in a few decades when they’ve finally dualled the A1 it might not be so bad from Alnwick to Newcastle or vice versa..
😂
I’ll be retired by then so won’t care I can sit smug and complain about people driving to work instead of buying a property close to a job.
a time machine
a time machine - would do you no good whatsoever. We’ve known about the issues, for what 50+ years? - and have continued down the same path. We’re still building new housing estates, where the occupants are totally reliant upon cars.
We’re doomed.
We can’t have everyone not breeding but if a decent section of society decide to not have one or more kids then it will make a difference in the long term.
This is happening, see above.
The other issue is lots of decisions on public transport are taken with a 9-5 view of the week
Of course, decisions should (sometimes) be made and money spent for the majority of cases. We dint have to get every car off the road, just most of them.
Don't forget the Scottish gov came up with a bonza plan.
Those of you that live near your work will now be fighting with all those being charged to park at their place of work for the on street spaces.
Just to say great thread 👍🏼
And when I was young man (in the UK W Midlands) if you took the bus you were regarded as a failure at life, and if you cycling you were similarly regarded as a freaky failure. Didn't bother me I sort of enjoyed the freedom (both financial and ‘spiritual/philosophical’) of not having a car and also couldn't understand the attractions of traffic jams and pollution. I finally caved in to car-ownership at 38yrs old, but still prefer the bike or train (from a wholly selfish angle) and every MOT is basically a study in corrosion.
Don’t know what current attitudes are in the younger population (towards multimodal and/or public transport).
I used to work in the automotive industry and went to Detroit a few times.
Not only is there very little public transport, apparently thanks to lobbying by the automotive industry, many places don't even have sidewalks (pavements). It's also illegal to jaywalk. If you want to go to a shop on the other side of the road you literally have to drive there.
Nuts!
If you want to a ride a bike, you need to stick it in your car and drive to a recreation area. If you want to go for a run, you drive to a gym.
Don’t forget the Scottish gov came up with a bonza plan.
Those of you that live near your work will now be fighting with all those being charged to park at their place of work for the on street spaces.
Hopefully they’ll introduce/increase the cost for on street parking. [Also do something about vehicles parked on the pavement.]
Pavement parking is due to be made illegal. I really look forward to that. My father recently had a nasty fall because of a car parked on the pavement. He is 87 and that fall has changed his life for the worse
there are roads around here where you have to walk on the road because of pavement parker
IMO all on street parking should be at least a tenner a day. thats the rough value of the public land used.
I used to work in the automotive industry and went to Detroit a few times.
Not only is there very little public transport, apparently thanks to lobbying by the automotive industry, many places don’t even have sidewalks (pavements). It’s also illegal to jaywalk. If you want to go to a shop on the other side of the road you literally have to drive there.
Nuts!
If you want to a ride a bike, you need to stick it in your car and drive to a recreation area. If you want to go for a run, you drive to a gym.
Makes me think of Mega-city One.
Pavement parking is due to be made illegal. I really look forward to that.
I am less optimistic it will bring about the slightest change in behaviour.
Apologies, I hadn’t realised quite how far off topic we had strayed.
Maybe in a few decades when they’ve finally dualled the A1 it might not be so bad from Alnwick to Newcastle or vice versa..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand
More lanes = more cars = more congestion = the idea that you can build another lane to "relieve congestion" = more lanes = more cars...
Drac - a difficult situation
what I wonder is what would your employer do with a person in your position who did not have a car? Would they still require the part time move?
I agree with a lot that TJ says.
We have to change, a radical change, no if’s, no buts, no whataboutary, but with attitudes shown by some on this thread the changes that are needed (needed 30+ years ago) sadly won’t happen
I'm hoping the train services that were cut due to the pandemic are going to be reintroduced (idle chat at station suggested they might be back in May).
I hope they are as I think the reduced service has pushed people into using cars to commute.
The worry I have is the operators just use it as an excuse to permanently cut the "unprofitable" services and those who have moved to car commutes don't go back to public transport - the price of fuel might be a persuader thought!
IMO all on street parking should be at least a tenner a day.
Genius. That's another three and a half grand you've just cost me.
Buy more busses, pay more bus drivers, put more busses on. Done.
You must realise this is a gross oversimplification. Who's going to pay for more buses and higher wages to drive round even more near-empty vehicles?
Occasionally cleaning and maintaining the ones we already have might be a better start...
IMO all on street parking should be at least a tenner a day.
Genius. That’s another three and a half grand you’ve just cost me.
Only until you get another car and then it would cost twice that!
Genius. That’s another three and a half grand you’ve just cost me.
Nope - its a subsidy being removed. Why should you be able to use land owned by all for free to the exclusion of others? On street parking in general reduces quality of life for others.
Edit - got my sums wrong - £3- 5 a day is about the value of that public land you are getting exclusive use of
We scoff at people in the US struggling with petrol at $2.50 a gallon but their lives have been built around cars even more than our
Their choice of vehicles doesn't help. It's changing, slowly, but it's 'normal' to drive round in a gutless V6 and consider 24mp(US)g to be decent mileage.
I used to work in the automotive industry and went to Detroit a few times.
Not only is there very little public transport, apparently thanks to lobbying by the automotive industry, many places don’t even have sidewalks (pavements). It’s also illegal to jaywalk. If you want to go to a shop on the other side of the road you literally have to drive there.
Yeah, I've seen this. I once had a lengthy layover at the airport in Dallas so I got a taxi out to the mall. It was split across two sides of a road which, obviously, was about eight lanes across. There was a crossing but it'd clearly never been used because the lights changed back when you were like halfway across. Once surviving Frogger there was a path into the mall but... it didn't go anywhere, it just ended in the middle of the lawn. Purely decorative because what on earth would anyone be doing on foot over here?
I had similar years ago at manchester airport. We had an early flight so needed to stay overnight. Booked into a hotel on the airport estate. We asked at reception how we walked to the terminal. We were told a shuttle bus was laid on. We still wanted to walk. it turned out there was no way of walking the 500m to the terminal - it had to be a 3 mile bus trip
Why should you be able to use land owned by all for free to the exclusion of others?
It's not to the exclusion of all others. They can use it when I'm not there and the only people I'm excluding when I am is other people who want to park there.
What about you when you're on the bike or on foot? It's a smaller area sure but "why should you be able to use land owned by all for free to the exclusion of others?" If I'm paying a tenner a day for a car taking up space, you should be paying £3 a day for the space your bike takes up.
On street parking in general reduces quality of life for others.
A lack of on-street parking specifically would reduce the quality of mine. Aside from anything else it would have been a deal-breaker in buying the house I'm now living in, I'd still be stuck in the hovel I escaped from. Because what else am I supposed to do? I have no driveway, no garage, and we need at least one car between us.
it turned out there was no way of walking the 500m to the terminal
I wonder if that's a H&S issue, or a security concern, rather than "yes but vehicles"?
what I wonder is what would your employer do with a person in your position who did not have a car? Would they still require the part time move?
Let’s just say because I know my rights financially wise it’s worked in my favour.
I wonder if that’s a H&S issue, or a security concern, rather than “yes but vehicles”?
I do not think so. the problem was the layout of the buildings. No pavements and no signposts and no one was able to describe the way there. we could see it ( but not a marked entrance) but not walk to it. without walking along roads with no pavements and lots of junctions and cutting across grassy verges / bits of landscaping.
and the only people I’m excluding when I am is other people who want to park there.
Not so - there have been times when I literally could not get from my front door to the road without walking along to a junction because of parked cars ;lining the road. those parked cars also reduce sight lines for crossing roads etc.
If I’m paying a tenner a day for a car taking up space, you should be paying £3 a day for the space your bike takes up.
I do not park my bike on the street. Your VED pays for the time you are driving. I am only talking about the time your car spends parked taking up public land belonging to all
Edit - I am not suggesting this as an overnight thing - more like 10 - 20 years to ramp up to the motorist pays the real costs so folk have time to adapt and those extra funds generated go into public transport inprovements
Would you think it acceptable that every person put a storage box the size of a car on the road outside their house?
We have to change, a radical change,
Yeah but your radical changes and penalties for change are not inclusive and will only really penalise the already struggling.
I'm in favour of a pay per mile black box tracker system my self but that's seen as an invasion of privacy....
Seeing real time costs acrue ala taxi would make most think twice about unnecessary journeys
But yes campaigning for change without viable alternative is not really campaigning it's just moaning.
I do not park my bike on the street. Your VED
Never ? You have never locked your bike up on the street to enter say a cafe or a shop ?
We have to change, a radical change, no if’s, no buts, no whataboutary
I don't think anybody would disagree that 'we' can't go on using ICE cars, the problem is that it needs a massive societal change to achieve that. You can make the argument that we shouldn't have changed our world to accommodate private cars, but we are here, and that's taken 50-60 years. It will probably take that long to readjust, and it'll take intermediate steps to get there. Radical change isn't achievable for too many people who're already living marginal lives
I don't even think electric cars are solution. But they are a move in the right direction how ever at a massive cost again heavily penalising the lower classes
I acknowledge the issue is the space pollution of the largely single occupancy vehicles.
But as yet I don't see a viable solution for the masses
But yes campaigning for change without viable alternative is not really campaigning it’s just moaning.
Radical change isn’t achievable for too many people who’re already living marginal lives
I have suggested plenty of solutions. the problem is they need the political will and those living marginal lives are the least likely to own cars so will get the most benefit from improved public transport which is where I would put the money ( carrot) raised from increasing the costs of motoring ( stick)
But as yet I don’t see a viable solution for the masses
cheap convenient public transport. Car sharing and short term hire schemes. townplanning as a method of reducing reliance on cars. All solutions adopted in other countries
and those living marginal lives are the least likely to own cars
Not so, those at higher income levels are less likely to own a car. The percentage in the lowest 10% income is 33% whereas those in the very top percentile is 23%. (ONS)
Who’s going to pay for more buses and higher wages to drive round even more near-empty vehicles?
Government. Which brings us to:
the problem is they need the political will
Exactly. And changing the political landscape of the UK isn't going to be easy. Ooh.. wait, I walked right into that didn't I?
Anyway regardless of "you know what" it's still a problem that needs solving regardless of what ends up happening in future.
All solutions adopted in other countries
Which should be carefully planned to make sure we can accommodate those who are most vulnerable to societal change One only needs to look at what happened to South Wales, Northumberland, Nottinghamshire and so on, when their jobs and income were radically removed with no future plans to cushion it. Those communities are still reeling
Outside of headline city's - which countries are these that have this wide spread
Because I'll argue that my experiance Edinburgh is a poster child for the Scottish version and probably why you've succeeded for so long. And in all my traveling I've always been impressed with public transport in most European main city's but as you get away from the poster cities that are the ones that have the papers written about them that people quote about it being workable and doable .....the rest of the population are having the same struggles as the rest of the world.....over crowding / poor transport links /reliance of cars / poor planning.
A significant amount of the UK's problem boils down to the cost of housing so you end up with both parents working to make the ends meat and the schedule ends up so tight between child care and work that you'd end up in taxis if you didn't have your car.
I guess the solution for the masses who live in the real world is the self driving car where you don't own it you just call and the nearest one comes - it's probably closer than the utopia of reliable (I'd take reliable over convienant tbh) public transport and car share schemes - we both know a chap who relys on car share schemes regularly and is regularly let down by damaged/unfit for use or even missing vehicles.
I used the bus twice daily for 2 weeks jury duty it cost me(well the court) 70 quid at the end of 2021
They pass the road end (20mins walk away) twice an hour. In my 10 days most days it was standing room only -and I was the second stop from the start of the line - two days on the way to town the bus didn't stop. On one day the bus didn't show up.
Bad, but more than half of car trips nationally are less than five miles.
Ok but what portion of miles are driven as part of journeys of five or less?
IMO all on street parking should be at least a tenner a day. thats the rough value of the public land used.
So basically a tax on people who can't afford a place with off street parking.
Because I’ll argue that my experiance Edinburgh is a poster child for the Scottish version and probably why you’ve succeeded for so long
there is certainly some truth in that
As for other countries I have used public transport all over europe and its cheaper, more convenient and more reliable than in the UK. Netherlands, France, Germany, Italy, Crete even
Yes locals complain about it because it can always be better but my experience in Europe is that public transport is much better than the Uk - like not just a bit better but a lot better
did you actually use the public transport? I have a fair amount.
So basically a tax on people who can’t afford a place with off street parking.
No - making those who use public land pay for that usage
When I work in London I'm always amazed at the breadth, depth and usefulness of public transport. Yet the streets are full of people grinding around in ICE cars. Does anyone know what the subsidy per user for public transport in London is compared to a typical market town?
I had similar years ago at manchester airport. We had an early flight so needed to stay overnight. Booked into a hotel on the airport estate. We asked at reception how we walked to the terminal. We were told a shuttle bus was laid on. We still wanted to walk. it turned out there was no way of walking the 500m to the terminal – it had to be a 3 mile bus trip
I was on a family holiday in Newport Beach California when I was 17 and got arrested for walking from the hotel to McDonald's! Apparently I should have got my parents to drive me there, all 250 metres of it. Didn't even cross a road but there was no footpath. I also learned that day that US police are completely different to UK ones, they do not take to you asking what you're doing wrong very well. Responding with "Why? What am I doing wrong?" when you're told to stop walking gets two very different responses!
On the plus side I've never been back to the US since, not even on a plane actually so that's helped cut my environmental impact down a bit.
Does anyone know what the subsidy per user for public transport in London is compared to a typical market town?
Depends on how you do the numbers and I have seen a few different analysis of this but London gets around 10X perperson of public transport subsidy compared to the rest of the UK. so compared to a market town probably a lot more
do yo count the cost of crossrail or not?