You monster, you.
Yeah, but I'll be a warm monster 🦖
I think the TL;DR version of that little monologue is that it's very easy to default to assuming that everyone is in the same position. We'll probably be OK here, I'm not immediately worried. But plenty of people are worried, a lot.
"It's only £x..." is 'only' if you have it. To some, being £100/month worse off is a minor inconvenience, to others it's life-changing. I have a mate who owes me £20, he's asked if he can wait until he gets paid before repaying* as it's a choice between that or fully paying his rent on time. He's worried, a lot.
(* - and before anyone starts saying I should let him off, of course I should, I've tried that many times but he's too proud to not pay it back)
to me its only “essential” because of choices made ie to live away from your work
As outlined above, sometimes the options that were there when you moved into a particular place are removed through no fault or choice of your own.
My brother’s boys used to get a scheduled bus to school-the closest secondary school to them which is 5.5 miles away- that option is now not open to any kids in the village.
There are very few jobs for people actually in the village as there are very few employers within walking distance other than the local primary school, the pub and a few farms. The local shop is a cooperative which a few people volunteer to run. Are you suggesting that the whole village moves closer to the nearest employment?
Another point about diesel is that from the 1st of April red diesel can no longer be used in construction plant .
Unless you are a farmer or work in forestry you will have choice of white diesel or white hvo.
Overnight the cost of plant fuel Will go up by 40/50 p per litre.
My only quibble would be ” for some cars are essential” to me its only “essential” because of choices made ie to live away from your work for many folk.
You've got that arse-backwards. You don't get a job and then choose to live further away, you live where you live and get a job in your vocation wherever you can.
You could move, sure, and I said that. But what if my job was in Manchester and my partner's was in Lancaster? (How's your English geography?) Even if we took the hit of moving closer to one place of work the other one would have to find a new job or it changes nothing.
In the village my where my brother lives in South Oxfordshire, less than 10 miles from the city centre there are no buses.
In the village where my sister lives, there are 2 buses per hour into the nearest market town. Except they're run by competing companies so Company A sets a timetable of (say) 15 mins past every hour. Company B then sets it's timetable of 10 past the hour to grab all the customers who've turned up a few minutes early for the xx.15.
Company A gets fed up of this and revises it's timetable to 5 past the hour...
Repeat ad infinitum. They don't give a shit about the customer, just want to maximize profit. The council has no powers to force a timetable on them. So instead of 2 buses per hour there's effectively only 1. Oh and if you buy a return ticket, you can only use it on the same company coming back which is even more restrictive. Buying 2 singles is nearly twice the price.
It's far cheaper and quicker to drive into town. Transport policy over the last 20 years has done nothing whatsoever to discourage this, in fact quite the opposite. Free parking, zero cycle facilities, crap bus service, new planning developments outside town - it's all led to total car dependency for the entire area.
My only quibble would be ” for some cars are essential” to me its only “essential” because of choices made ie to live away from your work for many folk.
Job, family/friends, leisure. I can only afford to live close to one of those, so it has to be the first one, which means I often need to drive to the other two. Or I can see them on Microsoft Teams, go for walks around housing estates, and ride my bike amongst the urban traffic for fun.
I'm fortunate to have a reasonable amount of slack in my life to absorb this kind of crap; money, time, few responsibilities, understanding employer. Some people I know are tight on money, multiple kids going to different schools, long and strict work hours, divorced, aging parents. I don't know how they manage.
Yes all of that is choices made. some may be Hobsens choice but its still a choice
to me and Julie not having a car was so important we both turned down jobs that would have meant getting a car. apart from anything else the time spent commuting is a huge waste unless you go by train and can work / read / browse on the train
Manchester / lancaster. Live in one city and commute by train to the other? Fast direct train IIRC
Okay TJ, see my responses below.
does it include deaths and illhealth from motoring pollution? does it include all the damage to buildings? Does it include the value of the land used for parking? does it cover all the costs of enforcing motoring law?
Deaths and ill health from motoring - what are they and how are they quantified, I appreciate there are significant deaths as a result of air pollution which we have made huge improvements on in recent years with catalytic converters, diesel particulate filters, and adblue. But I agree there's a long way to go. However how do you possibly quantify the financial burden of that in a way where you can directly add it into the equation of whether roads are subsidised or if the vat and duty revenue covers that cost?
Damage to buildings - I'll be honest I've never heard a single word about that before and I'm a building surveyor by trade so pardon me if I'm a little surprised, however if you can provide a study that covers this I will happily review it. I'm very, very skeptical though, there's a centuries old farmhouse between two carriageways of the M62 that still appears to be standing and I can't think of a place that would be more heavily affected than that.
Value of the land used for parking - whose land? Private land? Private land is just that and it's entirely up to the landowner what they do with it so it can't surely be used as part of your statistics. Public car parks, usually paid for by parking meters which the motorist pays for and usually it only takes a few years before the revenue has paid off the cost of creating the car park.
Cost of enforcing motoring law - what do you mean by this, it's unclear to me but I'm happy to respond if you can clarify.
My only quibble would be ” for some cars are essential” to me its only “essential” because of choices made ie to live away from your work for many folk.
Could you buy your city centre ivory tower on a nurses salary now? You made some fortunate choices a long time ago and now preach at the rest of us. Give it a rest.
I'd walk the 12 miles to work before I chose to bring my kid up in a city centre flat.
Thats a choice I've been fortunate enough to have been allowed to make and I'll live with that.
Looking forward to getting back on the bike once Jnr hits school but sad fact is that even if I lived a mile from my work I'd need a car to access childcare and arrive at work -do an 8 HR day and get back to collect before it shuts
Transport costs are one of the biggest outgoings for many households, which is something previous generations haven’t had to deal with at all.
Hmm yes, but the reasons for this are complex. Before we start, let me stress that I despise the current situation - I hate the fact the country is choked with ever-increasing traffic and congestion, and we just flatten more countryside to fit more of it in. But let's look at the issues.
Personal mobility is a huge benefit to the economy and to people, in many ways. If you can move around you can get a better job, or one you like, rather than whatever's on offer in your town or suburb. Likewise employers can get better staff. Back when people didn't move around, they worked in the local factory or mine and they had no choice. Now, I don't know about you but I want better than that for me and my kids in the modern era.
So the big question is how to move people around without all this congestion and pollution. And the answer is already pretty well known.
Deaths are both direct and indirect and this has been clearly quantified in the research. Indirect deaths are only of course estimates but it gives a pretty good idea. I'll have a look for the papers
parking land - on street free parking on public land. that has a value. the land belongs to everyone but I cannot use it because a car is parked on it its being monopolized by car drivers. sometimes I literally cannot get from my front door to the street with my bike for parked cars - I have to go along the pavement to a junction. Our urban roads are effectively lined with stationary cars 24/7/365
Buildings vibration appears to be an odd one - some find obvious effects some do not. However I can tell everytime a bus goes past my building - and live in an attic flat 70 ft up and 90 ft back from the road. the whole building shakes with loaded artic. Particular circumstances make this very evident in my building
Enforcing motoring law has a huge cost. From traffic wardens to police time to court time to lawyers time to CPS time. to the cost of jailing folk Very little is recouped from fines in comparison to costs Its a cost created by motoring but paid for from general taxation
I'll have a look for some papers. thanks for the moderate and thought out answer.
some may be Hobsens choice but its still a choice
Hobson's choice is literally not a choice.
And the answer is already pretty well known.
It cannot be done without congestion and pollution - thats the basic issue.
tabletop2
Full MemberI can no longer afford fuel or heating. It’s becoming a pretty miserable existance
See what's available in your local community - its times like this that bring the best out of people.
MrsRNP set up a community kitchen in the local church when Covid really kicked in. Her and a team of volunteers did 300 full 3course Xmas dinners and distributed them out FOC to people who needed. Since then she has been feeding ~50 people a week with bread&fresh produce donations that we collect from the local supermarkets that she and her team cook up. What's left over I drop at off the community centre in the next town. There is a great 'unofficial' support network out there.
parking land – on street free parking on public land. that has a value. the land belongs to everyone but I cannot use it because a car is parked on it its being monopolized by car drivers. sometimes I literally cannot get from my front door to the street with my bike for parked cars – I have to go along the pavement to a junction. Our urban roads are effectively lined with stationary cars 24/7/365
Buildings vibration appears to be an odd one – some find obvious effects some do not. However I can tell everytime a bus goes past my building – and live in an attic flat 70 ft up and 90 ft back from the road. the whole building shakes with loaded artic. Particular circumstances make this very evident in my building
Are they not both direct effects of where you've chosen to live in a city centre, though? To flip your own argument on its head... 😜
discussion piece from a non independent source got references tho and is broadly inline with other studies Ihave seen
https://www.fiets.uk/resources/estimated-driving-subsidy/
I'll leave yo to look up the buildings stuff - as a surveyor you will have better sources and better ability to decide on how good the papers are My glance at is shows clear disparity in results I think TRL did some papers on it
The government take nearly 58p per litre as well in duty and then VAT as well!!!
Are they not both direct effects of where you’ve chosen to live in a city centre, though? To flip your own argument on its head… 😜
Yes - but that does not mean they are not real effects with real costs
Hobsens choice is the wrong term - sorry moley. what I meant is some of the choices may be unpalatable to you not non existent.
Yes – but that does not mean they are not real effects with real costs
I know, I was just being glib with that last one.
I'm still firm in my original point which was that I wont reduce how many miles I drive because of the current price of fuel, for me it is a big part of my life and I really enjoy driving around the UK with the Mrs visiting various places around the country including a trip around the north of Scotland. I wouldn't let the current high prices of fuel put me off, I only have once on this planet and I intend to enjoy it doing what I get pleasure from.
I live within cycling distance of work and usually do so I'm OK in that respect. Most of my driving is for leisure activities, visiting people, going to bike events, that sort of thing.
I earn not much less than the average wage, so doing OK, but there is absolutely no way I could afford to use public transport regularly, it is simply unaffordable to use often. Even with diesel at these prices that is still the most affordable option for longer journeys, and as soon as there are two people travelling it is a no brainer
And I am fortunate I living somewhere which actually has public transport, I'm from rural Lincolnshire originally and the idea of a bus every hour is just pie in the sky there,once a week would be a massive improvement over none at all.
from the iamroadsmart link for those not arsed to read it
The NHS bears a cost of some £448 million per annum.
Police costs of attending an incident amount to over £80 million
The welfare benefit cost relating to the incidents that occurred in 2014 for these four groups amounts 650m
Costs of lost productivity for the four groups covered in this report (which have implications for the wider economy but also on tax revenue to the state) amount to over £2 billion in relation to incidents that occurred in2014
Further costs not assessed in this report including costs to the criminal justice system (affecting Ministry and social care costs (affecting Department for Health) for older drivers would add further to these
I’m still firm in my original point which was that I wont reduce how many miles I drive because of the current price of fuel, for me it is a big part of my life and I really enjoy driving around the UK with the Mrs visiting various places around the country including a trip around the north of Scotland. I wouldn’t let the current high prices of fuel put me off, I only have once on this planet and I intend to enjoy it doing what I get pleasure from.
How high would they have to be to put you off? Honest of you to state that but this is why global warming to a catastrophic level is now inevitable. too many folk not prepared to make the changes. Not a personal dig at yo but it illustrated the problems
Is there an air pollution crisis in the UK? No.
"There are huge uncertainties surrounding all the measures of impacts of air pollution, with inadequate knowledge replaced by substantial doses of expert judgement. These uncertainties should be better reflected in the public debates.
In addition, the situation in the UK is not what we would usually think of as a ‘crisis’. It can still be good to seek improvements in air quality, but only provided these are based on a careful analysis of the costs per life-year saved."
https://wintoncentre.maths.cam.ac.uk/news/does-air-pollution-kill-40000-people-each-year-uk/
How high would they have to be to put you off? Honest of you to state that but this is why global warming to a catastrophic level is now inevitable. too many folk not prepared to make the changes. Not a personal dig at yo but it illustrated the problems
Honestly I'm not sure, you're right I'm not prepared to make such big changes unless they're forced onto me. Even if it was £2.50 a litre I'd still drive for leisure purposes (and work covers the cost of my work mileage anyway). I'd quite like to do a driving tour of Europe one day, especially more so now before it's potentially impossible or impractical in the future.
In all honesty the more the threats of taking personal transport away from me come up, the more it makes me want to get as much in as I can now before I'm not allowed to.
Hobsens choice is the wrong term – sorry moley. what I meant is some of the choices may be unpalatable to you not non existent.
Yes, that is the case. I believe you were responding to me. It's unpalatable for me to not see family and friends in person, and replace my countryside-oriented hobbies.
I’d quite like to do a driving tour of Europe one day, especially more so now before it’s potentially impossible or impractical in the future.
In all honesty the more the threats of taking personal transport away from me come up, the more it makes me want to get as much in as I can now before I’m not allowed to.
Same with the road trip. I'm also doing the Munros but living in England, feel like I'm getting in what I can, while I still can.
Manchester / lancaster. Live in one city and commute by train to the other?
Why the **** would anyone I want to live in a city centre? Indeed, why should I? I like it here and moreover, I can actually afford to live here. If you've found somewhere you like to live, and that you can afford, and is within walking / cycling distance of work then good for you but please understand that most people aren't that fortunate. As is often the case, it's Not That Simple.
(And yeah alright, that was a poor example of two places I chose at random. My point was, if the two commutes are in opposite directions then moving closer to one is going to be further from the other.)
” for some cars are essential” to me its only “essential” because of choices made ie to live away from your work for many folk.
There’s an amount of tosh here. I know you worked in the NHS, but for those in the private sector where a transfer to another building/department/area isn’t realistic like it is in the employment of such a huge employer. I work for a multi national company. Nearest other office to mine is 80 miles away.
I’ve moved companies 3 times for promotion (as promotions don’t always exist frequently in the private sector when an employer has ONLY a few thousand employees) if I can’t afford fuel now at 1.80 I’m sure as hell going to struggle to pay solicitor fees, estate agent fees, moving cost, stamp duty and all the other costs to move near my job. In a utopian world me and my wife would work in the same town, for an employer of such size we never move and could then live there. But tue reality is not that.
I’m not poor, both me and my wife have good jobs and aren’t feeling the pinch in terms of fuel vs heating bs food. But I know people are and “ideal ideas” aren’t helpful.
I think it should only be tradesman (like me) who are allowed a private vehicle. Everyone else should use a pogo-stick, bike or e-scooter.
And for what it's worth I, arguably, no longer need a car. Which is why it's not being replaced when the lease runs out. Which kinda feels weird.
We'll still have a car between us, but it'll be my partner's as she's commuting and I'm not.
Everyone else should use a pogo-stick, bike or e-scooter.
Luxury!
Why the **** would
anyoneI want to live in a city centre?
So you do not have to spend hours a day and thousands of pounds a year travelling to work? 🙂
I lurked this forum for years, but would not join in as it was too aggressive.
I joined and started posting when a few people were banned for life. One of them was TJ who was banned for excessive arguing.
He is back and allowed to continue his old form and it drags down threads which is a shame.
So you do not have to spend hours a day and thousands of pounds a year travelling to work? 🙂
But spend all that, and more, on a worse house with no garden in a worse place? No.
I lived in a city for three years while at university, never again. And even if I wanted to, I simply couldn't afford to. The price of my two bed flat with a little garden 25 miles south of where you are would buy pretty much nothing in Edinburgh.
As for the time, I have pleasant 45min cycle to work, or a 20min drive. I did used to cycle into Edinburgh when I worked in Haymarket and it was not a pleasant experience, to Edinburgh was nice, though Edinburgh was not. And when I was working in the city I still could not afford to live in it
I lurked this forum for years, but would not join in as it was too aggressive.
Oh come now. STW aggressive? That's ridiculous.
Could you buy your city centre ivory tower on a nurses salary now? You made some fortunate choices a long time ago and now preach at the rest of us. Give it a rest.
I see tjagain hasn’t responded to this.
I moved closer to where I worked 20 years ago and intended to cycle, factory shut down 4 months later after 50 years of production. Since then I've had a further 7 employers with times in post ranging from 6 months to 7.5 years. Not once was the decision to leave mine, a couple of redundancies, another factory closure, a fixed term contract and being bullied out which came to a head when I left the building for the last time in an ambulance. I did not choose to move jobs and I did not choose to have long commutes, i took the jobs that were offered even if that meant changing industry and in the most recent case changing sector. TJ outside of your NHS bubble you have no idea what its like trying to hold down a role for an extended period. You had a complete hissy fit when your employer wanted you to work more than a 15 minute walk from home, most of us do not have that luxury. I am now taking full advantage of being able to work from home which my employer has wholehearted embraced, ironic since we are in the transport sector.
He is back and allowed to continue his old form and it drags down threads which is a shame.
Agreed.
We very obviously can't all live in city centres.
It cannot be done without congestion and pollution – thats the basic issue.
It is, and it will be very difficult to solve. The fundamental question we face is how much worse should our lives be to reduce pollution?
A great example, the problem in a nutshell, is foreign travel. Travelling is brilliant. It opens our minds, brings us order to people and cultures around the world, and is hugely fulfilling and personally improving. And fun. But it's environmentally damaging whichever way you do it. Are we prepared to lose that? Do we need to? I have lived some of the dreams of earlier generations and indeed my younger self. Have I already visited the wonders of foreign landscapes for the last time?
So you do not have to spend hours a day and thousands of pounds a year travelling to work?
I’m guessing you live in Edinburgh. Must be nice to live somewhere so expensive and nice.
There is absolutely no way I’d live in a city. Noisy (which affects sleep, mental and general health), crappy air quality, crime, cost of houses, tiny spaces to live, expensive food.
I live in the suburbs personally.
One of them was TJ who was banned for excessive arguing.
As I recall, that is not why he was banned.
In any case, there's far worse than TJ. There's fewer stubborn, but that's not against the rules. (-:
So you do not have to spend hours a day and thousands of pounds a year travelling to work? 🙂
By that logic I might as well pitch a tent in the field behind the office.
So my last job working for the civil service (as a chartered environmental professional) our office was accross the road from some flats. I’ve checked on Rightmove and they are £1k a month to rent. I did some calculations and with the wage I was on minus rent and bills (not car bills as TJ reckons I don’t need one but I actually did for that job but we will ignore that) I’d have about £250 a month to live on based on the previously lower energy bills. So less than that now in reality.
Err no thanks.
Oh come now. STW aggressive? That’s ridiculous.
Are you new here?