According to TF1 this evening reducing your speed from 130kmh to 110kmh saves about 2e/100km.
In the Netherlands they've introduced a 100kmph speed limit on motorways to help the environment, I like it. You don't really get anywhere significantly slower, it's less stressful driving and it costs less.
Having had to do quite a few trips to Manchester in recent years, the 50mph speed limits on the M6 were fantastic for fuel consumption
roads apart from major trunk roads and motorways are paid for by local taxes levied on everyone. Major roads and motorways from general taxation
Eveb if you don't own a car, you still need roads for the buses, ambulances, delivery drivers, maintenance workers, food supply chain, medicine, etc
Why on earth would that be paid for solely out of private car drivers pockets?
Now I'm certainly not saying the current system is perfect (or even good, and its certainly not environmentally friendly), but by living in a society where many people transport themselves by automobile, and there are large tarmaced public roads which are also used for commercial deliveries, busses, emergency services etc. you are reaping the benefit of such a society even if you have built a lifestyle for yourself such that car ownership is unnecessary.
I can no longer afford fuel or heating. It's becoming a pretty miserable existance
I was looking at the threads about gas prices and heating oil prices and feeling very smug that my heating and hot water is all done by a log burner and back boiler with free firewood, doesn't cost a penny.
.
I am now wondering if I could convert a Mk7 Transit to run on solid fuel? It is apparently possible to do with an old Landy
Eveb if you don’t own a car, you still need roads for the buses, ambulances, delivery drivers, maintenance workers, food supply chain, medicine, etc
i guess the argument would be that private motorists get more than their fair share and contribute more to the wear and tear of the roads than a non motorist
Really short trips get all the hate but they don’t use up that much fuel because they are so short.
No but they polute more. Cars on "choke" cats not hot lots of stop start in an urban environment.
lat - yes - and also we would need less and narrower roads without all those private cars on them
Well, it's an opinion gents, but not one I share.
I can no longer afford fuel or heating. It’s becoming a pretty miserable existance
And this comment, amongst all the pseudo environmental concern, is probably the most important. And everyone ignores it and continues their entitled bickering.
No but they polute more. Cars on “choke” cats not hot lots of stop start in an urban environment.
A lot of newer urban cars run very lean mixtures to make sure they get up to temperature quickly, including the cat.
When on a motorway, as the engine runs very lean, they have to dump fuel to cool the output and stop the cat from melting. So motorway running is lower mpg and more polluting.
I did a degree in environmental management in the 90's and even then we were learning that petrol is too cheap and the only realistic way to get society to change is charge more/tax.
Motoring taxes far outweigh the expenditure on road.
feeling very smug that my heating and hot water is all done by a log burner and back boiler with free firewood,
may i be the first to say that it doesn’t get around the question of pollution?
Prices are crazy. I was driving to work daily, pre covid, after many years commuting by bike due to a broken spine/injuries rom commuting. Covid saved a fortune, but now when we're back I've gone back to riding to work, but via the canal (I won't touch the roads in manchester at rush hour)
I'm saving £7 a day in fuel from not driving those 20 miles return in traffic. OK - I'm only in 2 days a week now.
Son uses 99 in his 'tuned' car - costing him a fortune - we've suggested he uses the family 'Aygo' for work trips/deliveries - would save him a fortune as it's amazing on fuel.
Motoring taxes far outweigh the expenditure on road.
Yes, but nowhere near the impact on society.
The 2009 Transport Select Committee report, Taxes and Charges on Road Users, calculated the total taxes and charges on UK road users as £48 billion per annum. The report quoted the typical annual expenditure on roads as about £8-9 billion.
In the same report, the Department for Transport estimated that the average marginal external cost of driving a car an additional kilometre is 15.5 pence allowing for the congestion (estimated at 13.1 pence per kilometre), infrastructure, accidents, local air quality, noise and greenhouse gases. This compares to 3.6 pence per kilometre paid in fuel duty and VAT.
may i be the first to say that it doesn’t get around the question of pollution?
May I be the first to suggest that sitting misrable and cold is a shit existance.....
IRC - that does not include all the costs of motoring. the costs of motoring are far more than road spending. many times more.
does it include deaths and illhealth from motoring pollution? does it include all the damage to buildings? Does it include the value of the land used for parking? does it cover all the costs of enforcing motoring law?
Motoring taxes far outweigh the expenditure on road.
I suspected that was the case but didn't have the source to back it up. Thanks.
Its not the true picture - see my list of things not included that are direct and indirect costs of mortoring
Your sausage rolls are going up from Greggs.... panic.....
It's a proper study though not just a list of things that may or may not be affected. Damage to buildings, really? What would that be then.
I can no longer afford fuel or heating. It’s becoming a pretty miserable existance
And this comment, amongst all the pseudo environmental concern, is probably the most important. And everyone ignores it and continues their entitled bickering.
We've willingly created a dependency on cars. It's a very new thing. For many people on this forum, it's happened within their lifetimes. Fuel is not the problem - it's very cheap. The problem is when everything we do requires it and there are no alternatives.
Transport costs are one of the biggest outgoings for many households, which is something previous generations haven't had to deal with at all. For aslong as people are forced to travel long distance for everyday stuff, to go shopping, to take kids to school, go to the doctors, post-office, etc, they're going to have a hard time paying for it. And this is an issue that's gradually becoming worse every day in the UK as everything is designed around that increasing dependency.
The problem is when everything we do requires it and there are no alternatives.
Hence my original comment that got berated. I'm not going to reduce the amount I drive my car because 95 percent of my miles are for work which is kind of my job. As usually with price rises, we will have to just accept it because we don't have a choice.
Read up and learn - that is a very narrow definition only counting road building which is a small part of the costs of motoring. What about all the deaths - each one cost a million pounds. all the illhealth from pollution - thats a cost
Traffic vibration damages buildings and it cost millions a year.
You think it’s expensive now !!
Traffic vibration damages buildings and it cost millions a year.
Sorry, you've lost me, what?
1.90 at the BP down the road from me (It is the one nearest to the M62 though) Paid knocking on 1.70 at Morrisons earlier (I'd cycle to work but try getting a van full of decorating gear in a camelbac)
Sorry, you’ve lost me, what?
Traffic causes vibration in the ground. these vibrations are transferred to buildings, this damages the buildings.
Now what about the rest of the costs of motoring that are not just roads? cost of enforcing motoring law? Deaths and illhealth? Value of the land used for parking that land belongs to all but is monopolized by car drivers.
Traffic causes vibration in the ground. these vibrations are transferred to buildings, this damages the buildings.
I'm happy to have a sensible debate but I can see you're just trolling now.
I was shocked and dismayed to discover that literally none of the VAT on peanuts pays for more peanuts. PEANUTS I tells ya!
Heat, food or fuel. If you're lucky, you'll soon get to pick two. If you're unlucky, you only get to pick one.
When that happens, all those who don't worry about paying for any of them will wonder why everything around them has stopped functioning.
Are HMRC going to revisit 45ppm?
Filled mine and my wife’s cars yesterday, £204…
So to all those being cleverbollocks about this:
Yeah, a car-centric society not ideal. Congestion, pollution, blah blah... I totally agree. But what's your alternative? How about you come up with a better idea?
Electric vehicles will help (or at least, arguably, displace the problem), but roll-out is slow, the infrastructure isn't in place and the range of an affordable EV isn't practical. I looked at this when changing cars recently, a little electric runabout costs about the same as a regular sized ICE car. But the range is 200 miles (and that's no doubt in laboratory conditions) - great for my OH to nip to work and back, not so clever when we went on holiday to Cornwall last year and it took 8 hours one way and 10 the other. In an EV that'd be before factoring in stopping to charge at least once and probably twice to be on the safe side. My front door opens directly onto the street so I can't have a charge point on my non-existent drive unless they're going to dig up the pavement so I'd have to park on Tesco carpark every night.
Public transport? Great if you're in London where it actually works, or most other cities where it mostly works, but for the rest of the country you're lucky to get a bus once an hour going vaguely where you need to go.
Cycling? I don't think there's anyone here under any delusions about what the great unwashed generally think about cyclists but even if that attitude were to change, who's going to be wanting to jump on a bicycle in the middle of a blizzard? How are they going to get a week's shopping home?
What about people out in rural areas? My boss lives in a field somewhere, his next door neighbour is about 20 miles away. Maybe he should get a horse.
And then there's the commuters. I don't do it any more but I used to commute every day from Accrington to central Manchester, and before that to the wrong side of Warrington. That's 500 miles a week just to get to work. Say 35mpg, probably conservative for sitting on the M6 for most of it, that's 60 gallons = 270L at last week's £1.59 is £430 - five grand a year - just to get to work. What's the answer here? Move house? Today I'd be arguing that many people can and should be home working but that's not right much use if you're a plasterer.
Unnecessary trips, sure, this is a big one. It's almost quicker for me to walk to the supermarket than drive and the School Run phenomenon has been well discussed. But that's going to take a paradigm shift in mentality.
Some people were already under the cosh before all this happened. Suddenly they're facing a 50% rise in domestic fuel with further huge increases rumoured to be on the way, now auto fuel prices are rocketing, and, well. It might reduce usage and make people think twice about being more efficient so yay, but at what cost? You can gleefully rub your hands together from your middle-class ivory tower like smug pricks all you like but the uncomfortable truth is that for some people a car a necessity. Reducing dependence is fantastic but that's not going to happen overnight and some people are going to suffer very badly before that happens. Some might not even be that fortunate, this is going to cost lives. And you'd have to be a special kind of sociopath to find joy in that.
I’m happy to have a sensible debate but I can see you’re just trolling now.
He isn't at all, it's a well-known and studied issue.
Thank you crazylegs
all the other costs as well that airvent conveniently ignores as well
but for the rest of the country you’re lucky to get a bus once an hour going vaguely where you need to go.
In the village my where my brother lives in South Oxfordshire, less than 10 miles from the city centre there are no buses. At all. Have not been any for the past five years. Now, he and his family can cycle if needed, but there are a lot of others in the village who cannot get anywhere without either a car or a taxi. It’s 3.5 miles to the nearest bus stop
all the other costs as well that airvent conveniently ignores as well
I could but frankly others have made far better counter arguments already including Cougar whose well put together post you've ignored entirely. I'd like to see you answer some of his points.
To be fair to TJ, it was a lengthy post and it was only about 15 minutes ago.
(I mean, I'd expect him to take at least 20... 😁)
may i be the first to say that it doesn’t get around the question of pollution?
No it doesn't, however energy prices in the last six months have moved from affordable to expensive, to very expensive, to boardering on unaffordable. Now wait for October because that has the potential to be another 50%+ rise, putting basic heating and cooking out of reach for lots of people.
Now that's just gas and electricity, fuel prices are now heading the same way, in a short while food will do the same and pretty much every single thing we purchase.
Desperate times, I'll be fitting a log boiler myself come spring and I'm very lucky to have good access to good quality and more importantly free logs. I'm not a rich man and I'll do what I can to prevent me and my family shivering our way through winter worrying how we're going to pay the bills.
You monster, you.
If I wanted to get a bus to work, I'd need to a bus to Newbury which is 45 mins, then a train to Reading which is 30 min and then a 30 min bus to the office. That doesn't include any waiting/schedule stuff.
I can't even imagine how much it'd cost.
It's 17 miles to cycle.
I have read cougars post. It does not refute anything I said addressing different issues.
My only quibble would be " for some cars are essential" to me its only "essential" because of choices made ie to live away from your work for many folk. Some folk it is essential - district nurses to tradesmen but for most - its a result of choices made
In the Netherlands they’ve introduced a 100kmph speed limit on motorways to help the environment, I like it. You don’t really get anywhere significantly slower, it’s less stressful driving and it costs less.
Wherever you are, you always have the choice to drive below the speed limit if you find it stressful to drive faster and/or you want to save money. Although not slower than HGVs on the motorway please.