my work is roughly 50:50 home and site.
This coming week I'll be working in stonehaven, forres, dingwall, forsinaird, thurso, achnasheen, slochd.
The following week I'll be in Stranraer.
The range of sites I need to visit mean I can't have one good place to live. Luckily it's my employer who picks up the fuel tab but I am conscious of their costs. I'll be driving more conservatively now.
I lurked this forum for years, but would not join in as it was too aggressive.
I joined and started posting when a few people were banned for life. One of them was TJ who was banned for excessive arguing.
He is back and allowed to continue his old form and it drags down threads which is a shame.
If this thread is too aggressive for you perhaps you need to deal with your issues rather than call for people to be permanently banned.
It's a forum. Difference of opinions is to be expected. Sometimes people feel strongly about certain issues.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-average-rent-price-rises-22884259.amp
Average rent in Edinburgh is £1,200 for a two bed flat. My next door but one neighbour rents her two bed flat for £400 a month.
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Anyway, entirely unrelated, I wonder why she doesn't move 25miles into the city to reduce her commute? Seems the obvious thing going to do
Those travelator things at airports. Well them, on all roads. Job jobbed.
Interesting that TJ points out the externalised and often ignored costs of cars… and many of the counter points are just more externalised and often ignored costs of cars. So many of the “I need to use the car more because…” tales are just the result of our dependancy on cars! The rural public transport situation being the most obvious one. But the having to drive to see clients etc is the same. Because we “all” use cars, we have reduced and cut back the infrastructure that would provide alternatives.
This is very true Kelvin, but it's the public transport which needs fixing first, make it viable and affordable and people will use it, it has to be 'better' than cars. Somewhere like London it is, for most of the country though it just doesn't exist. The fact that people still drive given how much it costs says a lot
I realised back when I was at college before I even learned to drive that the shitness of the local bus service was catch-22. No-one wants to use them because they're shit, but they're shit because no-one is paying to use them.
He may state his opinion in a rather forthright way but TJ raises many relevant points and it’s true that we have, as a society, become car dependent; addicted even.
We are so dependent that we resist challenges to the thing that we are dependent on. We have expanded our horizons to limits determined by the range of cars. Commuting distances, the range of our costs and the distances we feel we need to travel for leisure or family purposes.
The problems is that car dependance has its downsides We are pushing at environmental limits and our car use impacts on others in ways that we don’t like to think about. I live in a rural area. I do have a car but use it rarely. Where I live people in the prime of their life are hyper mobile… but kids and the old as well as the very poor are trapped by the car dependency of others. My mum can’t drive now and my brother, who died a year ago and lost his license when a brain tumor made him epileptic. They were both totally dependent on others for shopping, appointments, etc. years ago there were local services and more busses. Now they have gone because most people drive everywhere rather than use them.
There has to be a better way. But we will resist it and we will rage against change and deny that the problem needs tacking.
https://youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes Is definitely worth a look.
So you do not have to spend hours a day and thousands of pounds a year travelling to work?
There's plenty of discussion with circles of economists that the drive to get people living in city centers, nearer to work is going to create greater class division. Putting it bluntly, only the rich will be able to live away from their work place, and you will be kept poor by having to live near your work place.
There's a lot more to this debate... but it's late.
That's a good point - the reason a lot of people end up commuting is to access decent paid work or progress in their work to better pay and conditions. You could very easily end up in a situation where doors close to people as the costs rise but there are no affordable alternative transport options or equivalent local work. Which would be a disaster. It would almost certainly affect people already disadvantaged in the labour market and the low paid the most (e.g. Someone attempting to get back into work after paternity leave etc).
The messy reality of modern life is moving house is horrific. It breaks social and family ties, and many areas are effectively off limits due to high costs. Combined with insecure employment, 2 adults working and schools etc it's just not realistic or desirable to have everyone living next door to work.
i have the chance of a career move a couple of miles away. less money but no need for a car obviously which would be a decent saving (and get me on my bike more). however...... its an awful 'A' road to cycle to work, busy, with plenty of lorries. and as its so busy theres hardly any passing opportunities for cars/lorries behind bikes so they tend to take chances. i may need a car for it which would be frustrating, or just not take the job :-/
So you do not have to spend hours a day and thousands of pounds a year travelling to work?
Travel to work... what a concept 🙂
However i get your point. Lets rephrase it then...
Who would want to bring a child up in a city?
The answer is.... not many. Quality of life for kids outside cities is so so much better, from air quality, to lifestyle choices, exercise, safety and everything inbetween.
I joined and started posting when a few people were banned for life. One of them was TJ who was banned for excessive arguing.
He is back and allowed to continue his old form and it drags down threads which is a shame.
He's been back for a while, but has become noticeably "more opinionated" in the last year or so, for reasons I think we can understand.
I don't like it, but I'm prepared to look beyond the argumentative facade.
There’s plenty of discussion with circles of economists that the drive to get people living in city centers, nearer to work is going to create greater class division. Putting it bluntly, only the rich will be able to live away from their work place, and you will be kept poor by having to live near your work place.
There’s a lot more to this debate… but it’s late.
Interesting
What I see here is largely the opposite. Poorer folk live in the city / towns and richer folk live in the rural villages. there is this absurd situation in fife especially where rural workers live in the towns and commute to the rural villages to work while town and city workers commute they other way - and they have priced the rural workers out of living near their work.
He’s been back for a while, but has become noticeably “more opinionated” in the last year or so, for reasons I think we can understand.
Since the discussions of a few weeks ago I am working hard to tone it down. On this thread I have made no personal attacks at all but what I have done is pointed out some uncomfortable truths which upset people and have been on the receiving end of some pretty unpleasant personal attacks for my views
Who would want to bring a child up in a city?
The answer is…. not many.
I would suspect the majority of children are raised in towns and cities - thats where the majority live and for many workers a commute from the suburbs or country is unnaffordable. Not everyone is comfy middle class
And you still need a car even if you are lucky enough to be able to get to work without using one.
So you may as well use it to commute, than pay rfl, insurance, pcp etc to then buy a bus ticket.For the bus that doesn't start at your house, stop near your work, is cold and runs late enough of the time to mean getting one 30 mins early so your not late for work.
Because you still need a car for other stuff
As ever, with many of us on here, it's knowing when to realise that having expressed a view that people disagree with, it's time to accept that there's different views and just walk away from it.
In an ideal world, housing should be "close enough" to where people work that commuting by bike or public transport is reasonable.
The problem is, very few have that amount of job security to make it viable. I joined the civil service 19 years ago for a bit of security. Two offices I've worked in have closed forcing me to move jobs, now on my third office relocation in the present agency.
And you still need a car even if you are lucky enough to be able to get to work without using one.
I don't nor do a few of my friends
I would suspect the majority of children are raised in towns and cities – thats where the majority live and for many workers a commute from the suburbs or country is unnaffordable. Not everyone is comfy middle class
Doesn't answer my question though. Just because some do, doesn't mean they want to, or indeed that we all should.
Just because you have your opinion, whilst that may be right for you. Doesn't mean it is for all of us.
I don’t nor do a few of my friends
How do you get to trailcenters?
How would I?
Could you buy your city centre ivory tower on a nurses salary now? You made some fortunate choices a long time ago and now preach at the rest of us. Give it a rest.
I see tjagain hasn’t responded to this.
I was in bed asleep!
For what it is worth on my nurses salary I could not now buy anything at all within many miles of here. Perhaps an ex council house on a peripheral estate. Not a suburban house of any sort, not a tenement flat of any sort, certainly nothing within comutting distance. I would be renting for life. thats a different issue
don’t nor do a few of my friends
Got kids ?
Putting it bluntly, only the rich will be able to live away from their work place, and you will be kept poor by having to live near your work place.
So why you’re say is, we should build a few big buildings in each town. Maybe call them mills. We then build some compact housing for workers nearby. A terrace of houses? Maybe put the toilets in a hut at the bottom of the yard. To maximise housing we'll omit gardens.
This should capture the majority of employees.
Then the richer few live a bit out of town, maybe they’ll be the owners of the mills.
I jest of course, but Victorian England doesn’t look great from here.
Having choice is key, not everyone wants to live in the city nor does everyone want to live in the country. If both parents work, with children at school then this throws an unknown into the mix.
How do you get to trailcenters?
Very rarely in a friends car. I have not driven to ride since christmas day and not for 18 months before that I have been in a car 4 times in the last year ( 2 to do with a funeral). I haven't been to a trail centre for several years
This is again the basic issue. to reduce pollution to sustainable levels requires significant lifestyle changes. changes as we see from here many folk are not prepared to make.
Perhaps an ex council house on a peripheral estate.
I earn *by the national average* good money ... That's what I can afford. Or a city centre flat.
The flat can do one.
I can't afford the suburbs either ... But that's a blessing as they get closer and closer and closer to each other
This is again the basic issue. to reduce pollution to sustainable levels requires significant lifestyle changes. changes as we see from here many folk are not prepared to make.
Well no. But that's because we're Mtb riders are M are not local to towns or cities.
Tbh whilst I see pollution as an issue on this planet, theres worse culprits than me by a heck of a lot. There's also far far worse problems to solve on the planet too.
Just to point out I was using "house" to mean "dwelling" as folk do here. It would be an ex council flat not house. any house is well outside affordability for a nurse now.
In France diesel is due to drop around 35 cents/litre next week and unleaded by around 8 to 10 cents/litre.
And thats great TJ, you're doing your bit and you've made some valid points and you're right to challange our cultural car dependence. BUT your lived experience is very different from most people, so please stop applying your circumstances to everyone else. What do think I should done, move house 7 times in 20 years? Economically that would have crippled us, in some cases I wouldn't moved house before I was onto my next job. As an aside in that time my wife has worked less than 5 miles from home but even then public transport is no good and she won't cycle, very busy roads and 800ft of uphill coming home.
If I'd have had job offers closer to home I'd have happily taken them, I didnt enjoy commuting, it was stressful, expensive and a massive time waste. Now I have the opportunity to work from home 3 days a week I'm fully embracing it. Maybe one good thing will come out of Covid.
Got kids ?
Seems to have been glossed over so bringing back to the fore
NO - deliberate choice because you know - pollution and all that. Probably the worst thing you can do for your environmental footprint is have chaildren
I do know two car free families
Maybe one good thing will come out of Covid.
Sadly the "build back better" narrative that the government was spouting has come to nothing and emissions are higher now than they were pre-Covid; the hope of some sort of "green recovery" was dashed before it even got its shoes on.
The UK has for the last 30+ years been walking (or more accurately, *driving*) into this. Ever greater car dependency, a transport system that is permanently at or near the limit (and that's everything, bus/train/tube/car - all it needs is one tiny incident and the ripples are felt for dozens, sometimes hundreds of miles) and a population that is more mobile, more wealthy and more willing to travel long distances.
Sometimes that's been helped by artificial factors like suppression of fuel duty (at vast cost to the taxpayer), sometimes it's social factors where car dependency ends up baked in from the start as there is simply no other economical way of accessing employment, education, and social opportunities.
Around 10% of the UK has low income and high motoring costs - the ones who absolutely need a car to get to their (low-paying) job and they find it near impossible to reduce their fuel consumption so they're at very high risk of price hikes and the related costs of ULEZ, congestion charging, parking etc.
No amount of pushing EVs as the answer is ever going to help these people cos they simply can't afford one and in most cases can't get the credit to buy or lease one.
But for 30+ years, that's been allowed to fester in the background, growing (along with other social factors like cost of housing, location, rents and so on) to result in a transport network that has no resilience and no alternative.
A lot of new housing estates are awful too. Car dependency is built into them with very few local amenities. Very difficult to fix once they've been built.
I can no longer afford fuel or heating. It’s becoming a pretty miserable existance
this this this, the already fragile state of mental health will be devastating for many.
dont shell and british gas have made record profits
TJ why don't you sell your city centre flat, and i believe you have one you rent out also and are retired.
that way you can move out of the city to somewhere cheaper as you no longer NEED to be in the city, sell or rent one out for well below the market rate in order to open up property available to the folk who you are telling to move to the city, often to do very important jobs which are very often low paid jobs but essential.
So TJ what should I have done, I moved close to work, the factory shut. The house we bought was relatively cheap on a brownfield site, mortgage wasn't excessive (less than 2.5 times our joint salaries) I didn't have the luxury of remaining unemployed until a suitable job came along close to home, the state wasn't going to pay my mortgage.
Since the discussions of a few weeks ago I am working hard to tone it down. On this thread I have made no personal attacks at all but what I have done is pointed out some uncomfortable truths
Some advice meant honestly: You may not be doing personal attacks directly, but the level of smugness in your posts is intolerable. You insist that WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING NOW but you're not really interested in discussing what, and you seem to think that the decisions you made are ideal for everyone, and if other people don't make them then they are wrong and morally inferior. This obviously gets people's backs up. It's not "pointing out uncomfortable truths" as you put it, it's just criticising people in the most unhelpful way. This pisses people off.
We should be discussing the system that got us here, not blaming people for being part of it. Every time this comes up we talk about the difficult decisions we've had to make as our lives go on. And every time you dismiss us.
Probably the worst thing you can do for your environmental footprint is have chaildren
And this is banal. You're advocating the extinction of the human race. And remember that some of our kids are funding your pension and will be funding mine. Humanity faces a serious problem, and you're just spewing unhelpful comments (over and over again) that do nothing but start rows. And they start rows because they are intensely irritating.
In short, stop blaming others and start thinking of positive steps to bring to the discussion - or don't be a part of it.
NO – deliberate choice because you know – pollution and all that. Probably the worst thing you can do for your environmental footprint is have chaildren
So in order to save the planet for the next generation ...we should extinguish the next generation...
So in order to save the planet for the next generation …we should extinguish the next generation…
Reminds me of some of the protestations against reducing or quitting meat—consumption:
‘But if everyone stops eating meat tomorrow, then what happens to all the animals?’
Point being: not everyone is going to stop having children tomorrow.
Also, climate emergency is a result of an increase in greenhouse gas emissions from burning fossil fuels, not population growth. So a larger percentage of us not having kids may help but it won’t solve anything in the timeframe we have (a decade max?) to turn things around.
Letting your car rust and eating much less meat would be better
From the Grantham Institute: 9 things you can do:
1. Make your voice heard by those in power. ...
2. Eat less meat and dairy. ...
3. Cut back on flying. ...
4. Leave the car at home. ...
5. Reduce your energy use, and bills. ...
6. Respect and protect green spaces. ...
7. Invest your money responsibly. ...
8. Cut consumption – and waste.
9. Talk about what we can do
TJ why don’t you sell your city centre flat, and i believe you have one you rent out also and are retired.
that way you can move out of the city to somewhere cheaper as you no longer NEED to be in the city, sell or rent one out for well below the market rate in order to open up property available to the folk who you are telling to move to the city, often to do very important jobs which are very often low paid jobs but essential.
this was the plan before Julie died. I have stayed here for the medium term because of circumstances. The flat I let is let at well below market price. I considered selling it at below market price to previous tenants but they decided against it
Outside the 'life choices' debate, this fuel cost thing could really see people looking for things they could do to reduce personal car cost/use/whatever, while still travelling when needed.
I used to car pool with colleagues, but the whole part-home-working thing means stuff like this is a bit more disorganised. Has anyone used anything like the LiftShare app? Does it work if you aren't always going to the same place at the same time etc? I don't really need my car time to be 'me time' 😀
You may not be doing personal attacks directly, but the level of smugness in your posts is intolerable. You insist that WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING NOW but you’re not really interested in discussing what, and you seem to think that the decisions you made are ideal for everyone, and if other people don’t make them then they are wrong and morally inferior. This obviously gets people’s backs up. It’s not “pointing out uncomfortable truths” as you put it, it’s just criticising people in the most unhelpful way. This pisses people off.
righteo - I am going to take issue with a lot of this
1) I am perfectly prepared to discuss what and have done many times
2) I am not smug at all nor do I point out others are "morally inferior" I make no value judgements whatever. I have made no criticisms of pothers
3) that is your reaction to the uncomfortable truths I say
with that its bye bye time
In an ideal world, I wouldn't own a car. However here in the real world a car is a necessity for me.
I simply can't afford to live in the city, or near where I work - prices are way out of my league. The nearest town, which is where I would ideally live (has public transport links to the city) is also too expensive. Around here, like many places, people have had to move further and further away from the city due to property prices vs wages. We live in a village with few amenities (I'd rather not live here, but I can afford to live here - like most of our friends here). There are 2 buses per day to the nearest town (Mon-Fri), which don't link in to buses onwards to the city. If you work, you need a car - there are no easy/safe cycle routes.
The only possible jobs around here are farm work, school teacher or village shop (staffed by the shop owners family).
TJ must be much older than me and enjoyed low property prices when he/she was younger (or inherited lots of money). What should people like me do - give up a reasonable job to do some local ad-hoc farm work in order to live without a car, or (as we won't qualify for social housing) do I sell my house and use the proceeds to contribute towards renting a small flat in a tower block in a cheap part of the city?
TJ - you seem to live in a different world / the world has changed since you bought your propert(ies).
Public transport is woeful in this country - infrequent, unreliable and very expensive.
NO – deliberate choice because you know – pollution and all that. Probably the worst thing you can do for your environmental footprint is have chaildren
I'm going to stick up for TJ on that point, that definitely holds true, certainly in the west. The world is already massively overpopulated and more people consuming more resources is just making the problem worse.
I don't think he advocated extinction of humans but a big reduction in the population would be a very good thing.
Never mind on a global scale, just at a local level it feeds in to both of the problems we are talking about here, why is demand for damaging transport so high and why is decent housing so expensive? Too many people after too few resources.
And on a bigger scale the 'who will pay our pensions' argument is somewhat moot if the planet is completely ****ed
.
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I don't agree with much of what else he says but he is making valid points about how an ideal world should be, while IMO ignoring the real world, but he is making arguements rather than chucking insults about, the calls for him to be banned are a bit excessive