[Closed] Petition to send Hospital ship to Gaza

Signed

I thought there was a navel blockade of Gaza?

Why not use our navy to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza?

I thought there was a navel blockade of Gaza?

Yes and the Israelis don't take kindly to people ignoring their illegal naval blockade of Gaza.

In 2010 Israeli special forces attacked a flotilla of unarmed Turkish civilian ships bringing aid to Gaza in international waters, killing 10 civilians and detaining the remaining civilians and ships.

Signed.

Can't see anything going wrong there.

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid

Just as long as we don't try and import any terrifying weapons of war, like medicine or cement, we'll be fine!

great idea, signed

Even if it can't get through the blockade straight away it may well embarrass the Israelis enough to get them to lift the blockade.

I don't think Israelis do "embarrassment".

UK acting alone, putting UK military forces in a single RFA in harms way not to mention the cost to tax payer for 'embarrassment' really?

So better idea one hospital ship two frigates an attack sub and top cover out of Cyprus. Petition signed.

Signed, but unfortunately can't see it happening. Would probably require a complete change of Government first.

....for 'embarrassment' really?

No, not for embarrassment. Somewhere along the line you appear to have lost sight of the purpose of the petition. It's to provide urgent medical care for the sick and injured, it's not to embarrass anyone. Read the link again.

ernie_lynch, dont dispute that but it can be done another way Im just against such a hair brained scheme.

What other way?

rene59 - same as we have done before - provide bed spaces here in the UK and expert help for those desperate cases that need highly skilled care that we can provide. The RFA Argus can do little more than patch people up. Something that is arguably already available in Israel and Gaza. But considering the blockade in reality I doubt that anything practicable can be achieved. Besides there are many countries in that region that could also provide help. Our gesture might provoke a wider response of help than parking a western military ship off the coast

footflaps - Member
I thought there was a navel blockade of Gaza?

ohnohesback - Member
Why not use our navy to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza?

it should only be the start of a concerted effort to break the blockade permanently.

I doubt that will happen whilst Israel still exists, they seem to define themselves by how much they can make the Palestinians suffer.....

ohnohesback - Member
Why not use our navy to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza?

i dont suppose it would be too extreme to ask hamas to stop lobbing rockets into israel.. that seems to stop the israelis chucking stuff back.. when both sides agreed a 3 day ceasefire the israelis withdrew and stopped shelling.. why did Hamas believe that the best way forward was to launch 60 missiles within minutes of the ceasefire ending..

totalshell - Member

i dont suppose it would be too extreme to ask hamas to stop lobbing rockets into israel.. that seems to stop the israelis chucking stuff back

Except in 2008, when the ceasefire got too long for Israel and they decided to invade.

Do you know for a fact those where Hamas rockets, incidentally?

same as we have done before - provide bed spaces here in the UK

We have provided medical aid for the sick and injured in Gaza in UK hospitals before ? That's surprising to say the least, have you got any links ?

The RFA Argus can do little more than patch people up. Something that is arguably already available in Israel and Gaza.

Well I don't know about Israel but according to the link Gaza has only one working x-ray machine. I suspect that due to the $billions worth of US aid that Israel gets, plus the fact that their infrastructures are completely intact, that Israel probably has more than one working x-ray. They also appear to have a lot less wounded.

Furthermore I also suspect that it would easier to transport an injured patient to a ship anchored off the coast of Gaza for an x-ray than to transport them to a UK hospital for x-rays. No one in Gaza is more than 7 miles from the sea.

Maybe HAMAS just need to accept defeat at some point... 😯

As the jews have the worlds best anti missile defence system, the Hamas rockets are practically useless. The only pain they cause in reality is financial as the missile defence is expensive. They have lost fsr more IDF since the illegal onslaught on Gaza jews killed in many months previous. Unfortunately Hamas are playing into their hands and giving them an excuse to continue their Holocaust. Shame on you people of Israel.

rusty90 - Member
ohnohesback - Member
Why not use our navy to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza?
Because starting a war with Israel would generally be considered a bad idea?

What about sending it to Afganistan, iraq ,syria all places where serious trouble has taken place and lots of people been seriously injured or africa where there is an outbreak of EBOLA, im sure they could do with some help.

The only pain they cause in reality is financial as the missile defence is expensive.

Not to the Israelis it doesn't, maybe to US taxpayers, as they appear to be paying for all the missiles used in Israel's Iron Dome missile defence system.

[url= http://www.timesofisrael.com/obama-approves-225-million-in-iron-dome-funding/ ]Obama approves $225 million in Iron Dome funding[/url]

[i][b] "The new package is intended to replenish Israel’s capabilities"[/i][/b]

I never knew that ernie thanks. Shows how deep the relationship runs then. No wonder criticism is low key.

Yes and the Israelis don't take kindly to people ignoring their illegal naval blockade of Gaza.

In 2010 Israeli special forces attacked a flotilla of unarmed Turkish civilian ships bringing aid to Gaza in international waters, killing 10 civilians and detaining the remaining civilians and ships.

Signed.

EDIT: I suggest we keep such commentary out of this thread and keep it just to whether people wish to sign the petition or not.

Jambalaya, do you not think the Palestinians should be allowed arms to defend themselves from terrorist attacks?

Why would it be naive?, there is a US sponsored free passage of weapons into Israel - The Zionists need removed by whatever means and placed in a cage so we can poke them with sticks.

I'm not going to respond on here, this thread is about the petition.

Signed

I'm not going to respond on here, this thread is about the petition.

You should have deleted your post then, not simply add your weasily edit.

Sadly I imagine Dave won't have the balls to run this past his [s]mate[/s] puppet master in the WH. Either way, I don't see it happening.

The only way I can see things improving is if a public ground swell turns into a mini apartheid movement. But the USA would need to stop bank rolling the government of Israel.

mini apartheid movement

an anti one i hope!

Well Yeah. 🙂 Not sure what we could boycott.

Funkier jerseys?

Why can't the many Arab states in the region provide medical assistance? Why can't Egypt open its border's to Gaza? Hamas is not liked by virtually every state in the region. So instead we get to send a hospital ship into a war zone which will just raise the tension.

The conflict is so complex that it is probably too complex for us in the UK to understand. We can barely understand the troubles in NI and the Middle East is far more complex.

Why can't Egypt open its border's to Gaza?

Because the Egyptian leader who seized power in a coup is more interested in receiving the backing of the US and Israel than in helping the Palestinians. He doesn't seem much bothered by the plight of his fellow Egyptians either, judging by the amount he's had slaughtered, imprisoned, or put on death row.

And it's not simply Hamas that is not liked by virtually every US backed dictatorship in the region, it's the Palestinian people as a whole, with their irritating demand for some sort of justice.

The Western-backed despots want to concentrate on enjoying the good life, not worry about a load of poor landless Palestinians who complain when they are being slaughtered. Luckily for the US and Israel.

signed also.

😯

Signed and shared

Sounds good to me. Signed and put on FB

Signed.

lol if you think an RFA vessel would get sent to Gaza

lol if you fail to understand the purpose of a petition.

There has been a very noticeable change over the past month in the UK government's attitude towards Israel's behaviour.

The reason for this change of attitude has nothing to do with Israel's actual behaviour and everything to do with unprecedented British public opinion critical of Israel's behaviour.

Being bombarded with petitions is part of the way that the government and politicians assess public attitudes and reactions.

So while no petition is likely to fully achieve its stated objectives it is possible for it to help influence government policy.

For example, one petition called for a total ban on arms sales to Israel, a very unlikely possibility. However the government is considering a “tougher approach” to arm sales to Israel :

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gaza-conflict-government-considering-ban-on-arms-sales-to-israel-9655296.html ]Gaza conflict: Government considering ban on arms sales to Israel[/url]

A petition demanding humanitarian assistance to the suffering people of Gaza is likely to help put pressure on the government. Petitions need specifics, that's how they work, but falling short of the stated aim does not mean that they have had no effect.

HTH

The hospital ship RFA Argus is moored in Falmouth. She is uniquely designed for this type of situation.

I'll have to correct you on a couple of points there - the Argus isn't (in fact or in maritime law) a hospital ship, as she is armed (albeit with a couple of 30mm AA guns), nor is she 'uniquely designed for this' as she is a converted container ship.

This is a hospital ship:

[url= http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/USNS_Mercy_leaving_San_Diego_Bay.jpg/300px-USNS_Mercy_leaving_San_Diego_Bay.jp g" target="_blank">http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/USNS_Mercy_leaving_San_Diego_Bay.jpg/300px-USNS_Mercy_leaving_San_Diego_Bay.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

lol if you fail to understand the purpose of a petition.

Correct me if I've got this wrong, but isn't a petition, especially an electronic one, something the Government uses to create the illusion of engaging with the public, but actually completely ignores?

Correct me if I've got this wrong, but isn't a petition, especially an electronic one, something the Government uses to create the illusion of engaging with the public, but actually completely ignores?

You are wrong. Try reading the rest of Ernie's post for further insight.

Argus is a "Primary Casualty Receiving Ship" subtly different from a hospital ship.

It is also a Fleet Auxiliary and sending it into anyones waters could be considered as an act of war.

It also only has 100 beds, not going to make a massive difference.

Although I understand the sentiment, it is a ridiculous proposal in reality.

What about sending it to Afganistan

Good luck with that!

gobuchul - Member
What about sending it to Afganistan
Good luck with that!

You sir lack ambition! 😉

Signed, not because it will happen but it does, in some small way, register my disgust at the situation.

sending it into anyones waters could be considered as an act of war.

I'm sure that the Gazans would not see a ship entering Gazan territorial waters to offer humanitarian assistance as an act of war.

Or are you suggesting that Gaza is under foreign military occupation ?

Well we are sending nhs staff out to help.

Or are you suggesting that Gaza is under foreign military occupation ?

As there is an ongoing war/conflict the IDF is entitled to blockade Gaza and stop any ship entering Gazan waters. Sending the ship would be a pointless bit of posturing.

I'm sure that the Gazans would not see a ship entering Gazan territorial waters to offer humanitarian assistance as an act of war.

Or are you suggesting that Gaza is under foreign military occupation ?

Fair point.

There is however, a naval blockade of the waters by our closest military ally in the region. Do you really think that we will break that blockade?

Rightly or wrongly that is the current state of affairs.

The practicalities of this idea have not been thought out.

Is it ready to go? It will probably need to mobilise additional crew and equipment, say 5 days, then a couple of weeks to get there. So about 3 weeks before it could get there at the earliest.

Where would the Argus berth? It would have to anchor off the very small port and casualties would have be transferred by small boat. As Hamas are still chucking their rockets about, I don't think anyone would be flying helicopters.

The the 100 beds would be full very quickly. Or do you patch people up and put them back in boats to go back ashore?

I agree with the sentiment but this is a waste of time. The MoD could dismiss it as completely impractical without even going near the political issues.

Put the effort towards something more sensible. (Like sending it to Afghanistan). 🙂

There is however, a naval blockade of the waters by our closest military ally in the region. Do you really think that we will break that blockade?

The blockade is illegal. Britain has a duty to uphold international law.

[url= http://www.foxnews.com/story/2009/08/14/un-human-rights-chief-israel-blockade-gaza-strip-is-illegal/ ]U.N. Human Rights Chief: Israel's Blockade of Gaza Strip Is Illegal[/url]

[i]...the Gaza blockade amounts to collective punishment of civilians, which is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions on the conduct of warfare and occupation.[/i]

The blockade is illegal. Britain has a duty to uphold international law.

So you are suggesting that we basically declare war on Israel?

That is very sensible.

Also, the illegality is the opinion of a report and debatable.

you describe Israel as the UK's biggest military ally in the region. how so?

What about sending it to Afganistan,

So you are suggesting that we basically declare war on Israel?

That is very sensible.

Erm, I haven't suggested that we declare war on anyone, but you've pretty much suggested that Israel would declare war on Britain if we dare to upset them, how sensible do you think that suggestion is ?

Erm, I haven't suggested that we declare war on anyone,

So sending a warship to break their blockade isn't an act of war?

I'm not an expert in these matters but I can think of one good reason why a hospital ship couldn't be sent to Afghanistan (you numpty).

Read the whole thread you numpty. I was not the one to suggest sending it to Afgan. Also, I would of thought the smiley would of been a clue. 🙄

Besides the political problems, no-one has suggested how the practical problems could be solved.

I will say again, if you want to do some good, direct your energy elsewhere. This is a ridiculous idea.

I think the effort of trying to send it to Afghanistan would probably be enough to stop the fighting 😀

I think the effort of trying to send it to Afghanistan would probably be enough to stop the fighting

Maybe we could pick it up with lots of chinooks?

So sending a warship to break their blockade isn't an act of war?

Well the blockade itself is an act of war, but in this case the blockade is illegal anyway as it amounts to collective punishment.

But anyway, firstly I think its stretching it a bit to claim that if Britain were to send a ship on a humanitarian mission it would be equal to declaring war on Israel, and secondly Britain doesn't have a history of worrying about such matters, specially since the foreign policy doctrine of "humanitarian intervention" now seems apparently firmly established.

the foreign policy doctrine of "humanitarian intervention" now seems apparently firmly established.

So you agree with that principle?

send a ship on a humanitarian mission

To do what? Please explain what practical use the Argus will be in this scenario?

I'll tell you what gobuchul, I think it's probably best that you don't sign the petition, you seem to have too many doubts.

I'll tell you what gobuchul, I think it's probably best that you don't sign the petition, you seem to have too many doubts.

Ernie - As I said earlier.

I will say again, if you want to do some good, direct your energy elsewhere. This is a ridiculous idea.

What are you actually petitioning for? For the UK to send a warship into a very unstable area, which could achieve very little in way of practical humanitarian aid, with potentially serious political outcomes?

I'll ask you again, how will you overcome the practical problems?

Am I the only one old enough to remember the being taught about the Berlin Airlift?
As I recall there was a significantly bigger bully involved with much bigger toys, but the US & UK saw fit to deliver food and aid to those in East Berlin.

Where there is a will there is a way - it may not be a hospital ship to Gaze or deploying a naval task force to Afghanistan - it's just that the the political motivation is simply not there.

deploying a naval task force to Afghanistan

I'm all for that option
It make take a bit of dredging though

Read the whole thread you numpty. I was not the one to suggest sending it to Afgan. Also, I would of thought the smiley would of been a clue.

you describe Israel as the UK's biggest military ally in the region. how so?

The blockade is illegal. Britain has a duty to uphold international law.

U.N. Human Rights Chief: Israel's Blockade of Gaza Strip Is Illegal

...the Gaza blockade amounts to collective punishment of civilians, which is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions on the conduct of warfare and occupation.

That wasn't the finding of the later Palmer report (the UN Secretary Generals panel of inquiry into the events of the 2010 flotilla incident) though, was it?

In fact it specifically ruled the Naval blockade legal:

[i]Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law.
[/i]

So Ernie, why don't you stop cherry picking the reports that suit your stance?

As an aside: I once woke up aboard RFA Argus, after an epic session in Liverpool. I can vouch for it being a very agreeable place to spend the night, and they treat their casualties extremely well 😀

Thats an impressive night out Binners, though I thought they'd dropped the press gang some years ago - did you get signed in as 'Harry Shyters'?

You can ponder that while you're pondering the question asked of you before:

I'll answer that and sign the petition once somebody can explain to me what practical use it will be.

So Ernie, why don't you stop cherry picking the reports that suit your stance?

You mean like you just have Z-11 ?

From your own quote : [i]"in order to prevent weapons"[/i]

The blockade is not to prevent weapons entering, although obviously the Israelis who constantly violate international law use it as an excuse in an attempt to make it appear legal, the Gazans aren't waiting for a back order of weapons you know.

The illegal blockade is there to control and restrict everything that enters Gaza, including of course completely non-lethal items. The Israelis have even called it "putting the Palestinians on a diet" and have gone as far as counting and limiting the calories entering Gaza, I kid you not. Calories are not weapons, Palestinians cannot use food to kill Israelis.

So the blockade amounts, without any doubt whatsoever, to the collective punishment of civilians, which is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions on the conduct of warfare and occupation, ie, it's illegal.

In fact only two days ago the UN reiterated that the blockade of Gaza by Israel was [u]illegal.[/u]

In a statement to UN General Assembly the Commissioner-General said, quote :

[i]To be sure, Israel has legitimate security concerns that must be addressed. At the same time, [u]the illegal blockade of Gaza must be lifted[/u]. Until and unless that happens, Gaza – and for that matter the West Bank under occupation - will remain perpetually dependent on humanitarian assistance. As is all too well known, nowhere in the world does humanitarian assistance alone make up for the denial of dignity and rights. [/i]

[url= http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/47d4e277b48d9d3685256ddc00612265/4e1d81ed5803f04285257d2d00488f1c?OpenDocument ]STATEMENT OF THE COMMISSIONER-GENERAL TO THE UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY
ON THE SITUATION IN THE GAZA STRIP[/url]

At the bottom of the page is both the mobile and office phone number of UNRWA Spokesperson, if you've got any questions.

Have signed the petition btw ?

gobuchul - Member
I'll answer that and sign the petition once somebody can explain to me what practical use it will be.

I can't see it doing anything other than be another touchpoint with the general masses that says we are not happy that the UK govt is indolent to the point of being obstructive and that we, the people who get to vote in the next election, are not happy about it. It may in some small way prick someone's conscience - got to be worth a try.

It may in some small way prick someone's conscience - got to be worth a try.

roger - Just reread my post and I can see that it isn't clear. The practicality I was referring to was the limitations of what that ship could actually do. It is completely unsuitable for the suggested job.