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I live in one of the English remain hotspots so I'm interested in this seemingly arbitrary definition of administrative areas. Can we join Scotland if you do become an independent nation please?
However Scotland and England are joined by an Act of Union, and the dissolution of that agreement would separate them again, so any modifications would have to come after that. Scotland is not a possession of England.
the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof and forever after be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain
Doesn't really work that way, there is only one kingdom now, there aren't 2.
If Scotland goes independent, we are creating a new entity, not reverting to an old kingdom. You may shove your old kingdom (and the current one) up yer arse! 😆 😉
and ps, of course england doesn't own scotland, you seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the concept of a union there.
seosamh77
Doesn’t really work that way, there is only one kingdom now, there aren’t 2...
It is the Union of the Parliaments that would be dissolved, not the Kingdoms. The Queen could remain Queen of Scots as she currently is - unless we decide to depose her, as is our right under Scots law. Or we could leave things as they lie, and simply not accept her successor.
The Treaty of Union is an international treaty between 2 countries, England and Scotland.
The Acts of Union are legislation within those parliaments to enact the terms of the Treaty. A past government cannot bind a future government. Either of those parliaments could dissolve the Treaty, as indeed happens to plenty of international treaties.
Reputedly this is why Margaret Thatcher said all Scotland had to do was to withdraw its MPs from Parliament and declare independence.
of course england doesn’t own scotland, you seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding the concept of a union there.
Plenty English MPs and worthies think it is. I have never regarded Scotland as being part of England, but you knew that anyway.
More to the point, have you voted for English Independence yet? 🙂
My argument remains the same, you can't dissolve the uk parliament, that will remain as is, you also can't technically just use the Scottish parliament without some agreement as to how to move forward, as technically that is a uk parliament. Lets not forget the whole body of intermingled law, scots and uk, you can't just dissolve, you need to base a new parliament on some legal basis.
I'd think if the EU issue has told us anything, is that it wouldn't be simple.
Whoop Whoop
It's up to 613 now!! Not getting any traction south of the border though
I think the bottom line is, Scotland knows it'd be a terrible idea to declare UDI, and the UK knows it'd be a terrible idea to refuse Scotland the means to go independent without having to declare UDI.
Frankly there are higher powers and rights than those conferred or restricted by parliaments and the right to self rule is one, in enough people's eyes that refusing a genuine independence movement tends to lead to a total shitshow.
I’d like To see independence for the South East of England, specifically.
I reckon the rest of us would bump along just fine without them
Except that London would vote to be in the EU whilst the bleak Northern counties would have left.
seosamh77
...Lets not forget the whole body of intermingled law, scots and uk, you can’t just dissolve, you need to base a new parliament on some legal basis.
If the citizens of a country possess personal sovereignty, the state gets its legality from them, not the other way round. In Scotland the people are sovereign (Scots law is different to English law).
Iceland provided one example when the sovereign citizens massed and dismissed the government.
That would be a bit more difficult in Scotland, but one way would simply be for the Scottish govt to call an election with the policy of declaring independence. The Claim of Right gives us the ability to do just that, we do not need permission. It would not surprise me to see a Scottish election announced in a few weeks if a GE isn't called.
I'm not sure what mechanism could be used for an English declaration of independence. Possibly if enough candidates got elected on an independence platform they could simply declare, but I think in England it is the parliament that is sovereign, not the citizens (however the UN Declaration of Human Rights may counter that).
The Claim of Right gives us the ability to do just that, we do not need permission.
this is utter fantasy, but you crack on.
and how do you expect udi to work with 20% support?
Epicyclo: start a petition!
seosamh77
this is utter fantasy, but you crack on.
and how do you expect udi to work with 20% support?
I realise the concept of democracy is difficult for you. However this will all be a moot point in a few weeks, so let's wait and see.
In the meantime...
duckman
Epicyclo: start a petition!
No need, there's another petition for English independence on the go
It's beginning to look like all this is just a Scottish obsession there from some of the comments.
Suprise 🙄
Epicyclo, you're not quite right on Scottish laws and sovereignty. Laws in devolved policy areas are distinct, but not where policy is reserved.
However this will all be a moot point in a few weeks, so let’s wait and see.
how so? what's happening in a few weeks?
but one way would simply be for the Scottish govt to call an election with the policy of declaring independence
since i'm the one struggling with democracy, explain how you think that(UDI) will be successful with 20% support?
Your UDI obsession would be the easiest thing in the world to discredit for all the other parties.
Plus further explain how it'll work after the british government close down the scottish institutions and take over everything?
seosamh77
Your UDI obsession...
There is a huge difference between dissolving a Treaty and a UDI.
But let's keep this about English Independence. There doesn't seem to be many signing the petitions.
I'm honestly beginning to think you are just thick tbh. Do you honestly believe 17th century scotland is an entity that still exists and has legal authority?
You also seem to view the union as a partnership between 2 nations, that's not what happened. It wasn't a wedding, it was 2 nations that became 1.
seosamh77
You also seem to view the union as a partnership between 2 nations, that’s not what happened.It wasn’t a wedding, it was 2 nations that became 1.
That's not what the UK says in its description of itself in the UN, ie two countries, a principality, and a province etc.
But don't worry about that, we'll get it sorted real soon.
I suggest you keep your powder dry for the forthcoming new thread on Scottish Independence.
I’m honestly beginning to think you are just thick tbh. Do you honestly believe 17th century scotland is an entity that still exists and has legal authority?
Nah, just a Scot who thinks people living in Scotland can do a better job of running their own country than our next door neighbour does.
I suggest you keep your powder dry for the forthcoming new thread on Scottish Independence.
Sturgeon going to do a Puigdemont, declare independence then runaway?
I’m hazarding a guess it’ll be like all the other times I’ve heard proclamations of big things about to happen that change all.